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  1. #41
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Omg, guys! We have a badass here! His opinion is impervious!

    Seriously man, your opinion is as good as mine.
    I think you have a problem with irony.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

  2. #42
    Deleted
    I agree to a certain extent that there being no other viable path sucks, however a momentum styled play should net you approx. 10% more output simply due to the work put into making it work, like you said making sure you don't die from bad use of your abilities, keeping the buff maximized etc. isn't as easy as some (mostly non-DHs) make it out to be, and you should be rewarded as such.
    Anyone played Sub rogue during Cataclysm? Keeping up Recoup, Rupture, and all that jazz required a perfect rotation constantly, and if you fucked up once your DPS was goners, but if you did it flawless? holy fuck that Deeps, granted Momentum isn't quite as demanding, but it should certainly be the top performer considering effort put to achieve said numbers.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamut View Post
    My only concern with DH is that sometimes its hard to dodge stuff on the ground when you use VR/FR. Simple example Nythendra and infested stacks. Sometimes you wanna stack in one spot and then you realize you cant use your "rotation" ability because you will go away from group.
    my main sadness in wow is when you jump over something bad on the floor, 99% of the time you still get hit as if you just walked over it. i wish jumping helped

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodElf4Life View Post
    I think you have a problem with irony.
    I do actually. I have a hard time distinguishing between sarcasm/irony/etc. especially over text.

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigy View Post
    I agree to a certain extent that there being no other viable path sucks, however a momentum styled play should net you approx. 10% more output simply due to the work put into making it work, like you said making sure you don't die from bad use of your abilities, keeping the buff maximized etc. isn't as easy as some (mostly non-DHs) make it out to be, and you should be rewarded as such.
    Anyone played Sub rogue during Cataclysm? Keeping up Recoup, Rupture, and all that jazz required a perfect rotation constantly, and if you fucked up once your DPS was goners, but if you did it flawless? holy fuck that Deeps, granted Momentum isn't quite as demanding, but it should certainly be the top performer considering effort put to achieve said numbers.
    Do you mean that every other build should suck ? And by the way the DH class itself when a fight mechanism forbad any movement ? Because bosses like this did exist in the past, same for single target only.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Malizzar View Post
    Why play a DH if the style bothers you. I actually like that it is a very unique style compared to other melee. Does it take some figuring out how to minimize being out of range? yes. Can it be done? yes.

    Play what is fun. Its really that simple.
    If that's the intended play style then why aren't those talents just baseline? It's a design flaw to have talents that are so wildly imbalanced and I'm not sure why people defend it.

  7. #47
    with all the "I cannot FR how i like because boss" complains, i can't wait until high botanist and that bridgeboss i forgot the name of are live xD. the wave of complains about how DH cannot do his stuff will be great, already preparing popcorn xD

    Edit: OH, and the Aran-rehash in 7.1 will be awesome with flamewreath standing still for 12 seconds? will be impossible for most

  8. #48
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    I personally love the momentum playstyle, it feels very rewarding when you nail the rotation. It also feels pretty badass when you flawlessly navigate boss mechanics while maintaining full momentum and boss uptime.

    However, there are of course times where it can be a bit of a pain. If it gets too much you can just go Nemesis and Demon Blades, that's as close as you're going to get I think. Any more and it starts becoming less of what they intended DH's to be and more like a rogue/warrior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    There's nothing left to do but take our own lives.
    DH / Shaman / Warrior / Druid / Mage / Rogue / Warlock

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Last night we did nythendra m and someone came up with a strategy where everyone just stands still in 8y range of everyone else.
    I had a very bad feeling about this beforehand... Turns out I sometimes only pulled 180k dps (ilvl 861)... Switched to demon blades/nemesis for the first time ever, went to a nice void free spot away from the others in p2....
    I did mess up alot and only used FR for movement.

    I won't post our embarrassing wipe logs, but I was among those with the least dmg taken and our rl pointed out that he doesn't care about dps as long as you can somehow adjust to the current boss mechanics.

    I still hated it. And I kinda envied the two rogues which were on my side destroying everyone but the hunters in the meters...
    Stupid rng and our incompetence in dealing with stacks/mind control prevented the only thing Havoc is good for in this encounter: aoe bursting mc players.

    I honestly don't know how I should feel about this. My fails in rotation/talent choice aside, this just sucks. I haven't seen any other mythic encounters, but if this keeps going on, then it really is a design problem and not just some fotm baddie whining.
    There's always an exception and most likely there are ppl here who jump around in this fight as much as they can and don't get any more stacks than e.g. a rogue, but for the majority of players these situations are a huge problem.....

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    with all the "I cannot FR how i like because boss" complains, i can't wait until high botanist and that bridgeboss i forgot the name of are live xD. the wave of complains about how DH cannot do his stuff will be great, already preparing popcorn xD

    Edit: OH, and the Aran-rehash in 7.1 will be awesome with flamewreath standing still for 12 seconds? will be impossible for most
    Krosus is easy for DH, all you have to do is just FR while you strafe from side to side. So dont choke with your popcorn. And your post only prove that there is a problem with DH. Design a class that use mobility abilities in their st rotation and then throw at them bosses who require to stand still.

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Netheris2k View Post
    Last night we did nythendra m and someone came up with a strategy where everyone just stands still in 8y range of everyone else.
    I had a very bad feeling about this beforehand... Turns out I sometimes only pulled 180k dps (ilvl 861)... Switched to demon blades/nemesis for the first time ever, went to a nice void free spot away from the others in p2....
    I did mess up alot and only used FR for movement.

    I won't post our embarrassing wipe logs, but I was among those with the least dmg taken and our rl pointed out that he doesn't care about dps as long as you can somehow adjust to the current boss mechanics.

    I still hated it. And I kinda envied the two rogues which were on my side destroying everyone but the hunters in the meters...
    Stupid rng and our incompetence in dealing with stacks/mind control prevented the only thing Havoc is good for in this encounter: aoe bursting mc players.

    I honestly don't know how I should feel about this. My fails in rotation/talent choice aside, this just sucks. I haven't seen any other mythic encounters, but if this keeps going on, then it really is a design problem and not just some fotm baddie whining.
    There's always an exception and most likely there are ppl here who jump around in this fight as much as they can and don't get any more stacks than e.g. a rogue, but for the majority of players these situations are a huge problem.....
    We have 3 DHs on M Nythendra and zero problems with moving around. Tell your RL he should stop being a pussy and not gimp his raid dps

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanos27 View Post
    I'm playing with Nemesis instead of Momentum (literally the worst talent I've ever seen, right up there with savage roar), Demon Blades instead of Retreat and I'm pulling more dps than almost every DH I've come across (even higher item level DH's) that are using the momentum set up which tells me most DH's don't know how to play this style as well as most people think.

    I think if they made Fel Blade baseline and had it reset whenever you fel rushed or retreated it would make the game play feel a lot better while keeping the "dashing/jumping around" class fantasy everyone wants.
    Got a log? Asking because I'd like to compare you to my own play with demon blades, momo and chaos blades @ 868 ilvl

  13. #53
    Deleted
    the day ppl understand that VR TG/EB FR in with demonic talent, is not bad the better, if the talents stays as they are now further in havoc will be using demonic as #1 dps talent in last tier.

    simple math, its already onpar with chaos blades, problem is most ppl dont have a flying !##"¤%(excuse the wording here) how to play that style. and play it exactly as you play with CB, wich you dont.

    Its also more consistant becuse of the 45 SEc cd of burst, every 45 sec(without raddon) you have 4-5 annihilations. do the math on yourself you will come to the conclusion that the longer the fight is the more dps you get out of demonic. and it also makes sense in this i get out twice as many annihilations as another dh that would use CB.

    keep in mind CB does not work on both things at once either you autoattack or you use an ability, you dont gain both things, wich makes it seem better than it is.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzah View Post
    the day ppl understand that VR TG/EB FR in with demonic talent, is not bad the better, if the talents stays as they are now further in havoc will be using demonic as #1 dps talent in last tier.

    simple math, its already onpar with chaos blades, problem is most ppl dont have a flying !##"¤%(excuse the wording here) how to play that style. and play it exactly as you play with CB, wich you dont.

    Its also more consistant becuse of the 45 SEc cd of burst, every 45 sec(without raddon) you have 4-5 annihilations. do the math on yourself you will come to the conclusion that the longer the fight is the more dps you get out of demonic. and it also makes sense in this i get out twice as many annihilations as another dh that would use CB.

    keep in mind CB does not work on both things at once either you autoattack or you use an ability, you dont gain both things, wich makes it seem better than it is.
    It's not a bad talent indeed, it's even quite good and appealing (demon ftw) But:
    1) if the talents stays as they are now further in havoc will be using demonic as #1 dps talent in last tier.
    => Hm ? This can only be the case if we have way to reduce EB cooldown SIGNIFICANTLY (which we havn't even with raddon) OR if we get weapon relic to a point where weapon damage SURPASS the mastery bonus from CB. Because only Weapon Damage AND EB Cooldown play a role different then CB's one which is ATT Power and mastery scaling. And, maybe it will be the case we don't know and I'm sure the community will adapt.

    Simple maths, on a 4 min 30 fight which proves it's not bad indeed:
    Hypothesis: avg dmg Annihilation 300k, avg dmg Chaos Strike 200k (it doesn't matter btw because of Mastery playing on both sides), 20% Mastery (think we'll get more later on, this is what I have right now), avg dmg auto hit 25k, TG avg damage 130k
    Number of EB / Demonic casts: 5 roughly (cause you can't do it at pull right the way)
    Number of Annihilation during 5 sec castable: 4 (you'd better have chance with crit so it's large but since we'll get more on gear + T19, I think we can go for 4 !)
    Number of CB casts: 3 roughly
    Number of CS/Annihilation during 12 of CB castable: let's double it, so 8
    Number of AA during 12 sec with avg 1 per 2 sec: ~5
    Number of TG during 12 with avg 1 per 6 sec: 2

    Demonic bonus => 5 * 4 * 300k = 6kk
    MINIMUM Chaos Blade bonus => [ (8 * 300k) (Meta) + (8 * 200k) (Not meta) + (5*25k) (auto) + (130k*2) (TG) ] * 1.20 + (130k*1.20*2.5) (Bloodlet) = 5.6kk BUT this is without counting FR, VR... and rather simpliest model.

    The hypothesis are taken on a top log fight Ursoc of 4min30~ so rather optimistic as good conditions. The reason why CB is taken right now is more for the burst it can offer wherever you want and the avg duration of "effective time on boss". Keep in mind the more mastery we have, the more CB is better so it "should" scale more (indeed, mastery for demonic purpose is just Chaos Dmg on Annihilation while CB is Chaos Dmg on Annihilation from base Mastery PLUS the CB bonus from mastery).
    Also keep in mind that Blizzard doesn't want the passive things to be better than activated things so we can assume there will be a CB buff.
    Last edited by Deix-EU; 2016-10-14 at 11:59 AM.

  15. #55
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    It's not a bad talent indeed, it's even quite good and appealing (demon ftw) But:
    1) if the talents stays as they are now further in havoc will be using demonic as #1 dps talent in last tier.
    => Hm ? This can only be the case if we have way to reduce EB cooldown SIGNIFICANTLY (which we havn't even with raddon) OR if we get weapon relic to a point where weapon damage SURPASS the mastery bonus from CB. Because only Weapon Damage AND EB Cooldown play a role different then CB's one which is ATT Power and mastery scaling. And, maybe it will be the case we don't know and I'm sure the community will adapt.

    Simple maths, on a 4 min 30 fight which proves it's not bad indeed:
    Hypothesis: avg dmg Annihilation 300k, avg dmg Chaos Strike 200k (it doesn't matter btw because of Mastery playing on both sides), 20% Mastery (think we'll get more later on, this is what I have right now), avg dmg auto hit 25k, TG avg damage 130k
    Number of EB / Demonic casts: 5 roughly (cause you can't do it at pull right the way)
    Number of Annihilation during 5 sec castable: 4 (you'd better have chance with crit so it's large but since we'll get more on gear + T19, I think we can go for 4 !)
    Number of CB casts: 3 roughly
    Number of CS/Annihilation during 12 of CB castable: let's double it, so 8
    Number of AA during 12 sec with avg 1 per 2 sec: ~5
    Number of TG during 12 with avg 1 per 6 sec: 2

    Demonic bonus => 5 * 4 * 300k = 6kk
    MINIMUM Chaos Blade bonus => [ (8 * 300k) (Meta) + (8 * 200k) (Not meta) + (5*25k) (auto) + (130k*2) (TG) ] * 1.20 + (130k*1.20*2.5) (Bloodlet) = 5.6kk BUT this is without counting FR, VR... and rather simpliest model.

    The hypothesis are taken on a top log fight Ursoc of 4min30~ so rather optimistic as good conditions. The reason why CB is taken right now is more for the burst it can offer wherever you want and the avg duration of "effective time on boss". Keep in mind the more mastery we have, the more CB is better so it "should" scale more (indeed, mastery for demonic purpose is just Chaos Dmg on Annihilation while CB is Chaos Dmg on Annihilation from base Mastery PLUS the CB bonus from mastery).
    Also keep in mind that Blizzard doesn't want the passive things to be better than activated things so we can assume there will be a CB buff.
    I agree but keep in mind you took a fight that was in favor of both talents most fights will favor demonic in duration where you get more demonic than CB, thats what i am getting at :P the longer the fight the better it becomes.

    But yes as you said it is slightly better and a lot better when demand burst is needed and fast fights.

    fights that are odd numbers and up to 8 min, makes demonic become better, and many fights in nighthold have a lot of adds 8+

    that means 0.3x8x8 that means 19.2 seconds reduction with raddon. thats almost halving the uptime on demonic question here that comes is how often does these adds come?

    or will there come more than 1 time 8 adds?

    we will see but im fairly certain demonic will become godtier talent in last raid it will shine on some bosses for min/maxers in nighthold also

  16. #56
    Momentum isn't the only problem. Fel Mastery is part of the problem. The fact that no matter how you spec, FR is always a dps increase when you have no pain and your 2.6s(modified by haste) swing timer is counting (demon blades talented). There is literally no standing still for this class. This isn't necessarily a complaint, as I am a total noob and actually do better dps with a really sub-par talent spec than I do with momentum or Nemesis. It's weird because I really like Fel Eruption. My uptime with momentum is garbage, and I'm really just a bad player. I don't really like Nemesis because it doesn't feel fun. I like hitting things with Fel Eruption for 1.5 MILLION DAMAGE! haha

    I still pull 200+k dps with fel eruption, and sometimes even do more than I would normally do with momentum or nemesis. So, unless you're min/maxing it seems like most talents are at least somewhat viable. Definitely not optimal, but viable. With Fel Eruption, I only have to FR when I'm out of pain and everything else is on cooldown; or if there are multiple targets and I'm doing AoE damage.

  17. #57
    honestly it just feels like Blizz dropped the ball a bit on talents for a few classes in Legion, being as their whole stated goal with talents was to give you Options in play style, but right now some classes have specific builds/talent choices that are just far and away ahead of their competition, Havoc is one, Shadow priest is another, where you basically have to use Surrender to Madness, and play perfectly at the risk of death, to be competitive

    just the way talents are set up now is, in my opinion, the problem, Bloodlet should be on the same tier as Momentum/Nemisis giving you multiple options there that would tweak your rotation/gameplay in various ways, but that still doesn't do much about the fact that Fel Mastery and Prepared both have extremely lackluster competition on their respective rows
    Last edited by amythist; 2016-10-15 at 05:44 AM.

  18. #58
    I love the Momentum build but.....

    We have one dps spec and this was suppose to ensure we would get maximum development time.

    We deserve a complete talent tree with multiple build options. We deserve a Chaos strike/Demon form focused single target build. We deserve better talents and artifact traits that aren't completely worthless.

  19. #59
    FelRush playstyle can be OK , but having to vengeful retreat in the basic rotation is pain in the ***
    Having to fit ALL best abilities in a 4 seconds buff is also a pretty annoying design

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsauce View Post
    This is the exact reason I shelved my 860 DH. Mythic raiding is soul crushing as havoc. Especially after the damage nerfs. I was having to play my ass off just to hit 10th in DPS while other classes pushed 2 buttons and destroyed me.

    Rush into exploding bugs, rush into rot, rush into spiderwebs, rush into the clothesline from hell...on and on and on.
    im currently 4/7 in mythic and my guild hasnt even considered benching me (i think) sounds like you just need to git gud and learn to plan ahead instead of charging into fire

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