Legion - Subtlety discussion

[FenrizZJ]

what's a polymorphic key? I just hit levers and doors opened.

[Deleted]

The more i play mu sub rogue the more i enjoy it , yesteerday i read through new and old posts and seen lot of people claming sub is ruined from wod version while from my understand it hasnt changed much at all from wod mainly quality of life stuff Sod> slice and dice which cost(ed) CP.

[elcapone]

The more i play mu sub rogue the more i enjoy it , yesteerday i read through new and old posts and seen lot of people claming sub is ruined from wod version while from my understand it hasnt changed much at all from wod mainly quality of life stuff Sod> slice and dice which cost(ed) CP.

sub is the hardest spec I've ever played so many nuances/decision making that affects your dps a lot. I noticed a lot that I was trying to get 6 point finishers than 5 cp finshers which was costing me shadow strikes. My dps went up another 20k by fixing that. Crazy. One thing I am always thinking when nightblade is at 10 seconds, do i have enough energy to get 5 to 6 pt points or SoD before my nightblade runs out. keeps me on my toes everytime.

[Deleted]

sub is the hardest spec I've ever played so many nuances/decision making that affects your dps a lot. I noticed a lot that I was trying to get 6 point finishers than 5 cp finshers which was costing me shadow strikes. My dps went up another 20k by fixing that. Crazy. One thing I am always thinking when nightblade is at 10 seconds, do i have enough energy to get 5 to 6 pt points or SoD before my nightblade runs out. keeps me on my toes everytime.

Yeah sub has many decisions to be made at times. Just example that came up with: Do i pool energy and dont do much till next shadow dance or do i try and get some cps for New nightblade aplication. Or after few shadow dances at pull you have both finality for NB adn eviscerate but only enough time to get 6cp and only use one of the buffs but not both.

[Snorlaxi]

sub is the hardest spec I've ever played so many nuances/decision making that affects your dps a lot. I noticed a lot that I was trying to get 6 point finishers than 5 cp finshers which was costing me shadow strikes. My dps went up another 20k by fixing that. Crazy. One thing I am always thinking when nightblade is at 10 seconds, do i have enough energy to get 5 to 6 pt points or SoD before my nightblade runs out. keeps me on my toes everytime.

Your dps actually went up by not trying to force 6 cp finishers?

[Mafic]

sub is the hardest spec I've ever played so many nuances/decision making that affects your dps a lot. I noticed a lot that I was trying to get 6 point finishers than 5 cp finshers which was costing me shadow strikes. My dps went up another 20k by fixing that. Crazy. One thing I am always thinking when nightblade is at 10 seconds, do i have enough energy to get 5 to 6 pt points or SoD before my nightblade runs out. keeps me on my toes everytime.

Sub pre Legion was even harder and had even more opportunity costs attached to it in PVE. But that was always the charm of the spec, which is why the 2nd version of Sub made it to live in Legion instead of the alpha version which took away the decision making.

Stick it out and the satisfaction of lining things up with Sub will only make playing the spec even more satisfying with tier set bonuses. The other two specs somehow looked good on paper in the Legion alpha/beta but failed to translate onto the live game.

[Kenjiwing]

Is there a BIS guide for sub anywhere?

Rotation / Gear - stats / etc?

[Deleted]

Is there a BIS guide for sub anywhere?

Rotation / Gear - stats / etc?

im nto expert but keep as high uptime on symbols of death as possible, and nightblade Always keep vanish or 1 shadow dance charge as emergancy cd for symbols refreshing. for stats mainly focus on mastery then crit > versa and haste as least bu do make you got some haste if you can since with enough you can get extra ss in dance window more often then not.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone here that has a good WA for SoD and NB uptime?

[elcapone]

Your dps actually went up by not trying to force 6 cp finishers?

I was actually struggling with this, i looked at stjern guide and looked at my own experience and agreed, results showed on dummy. If your at 5 cp and you shadow strike only to get 6 cp you will have down time during SD because no energy for finisher and ur capped at cp. Now I have energy for my 5 point finisher than i can put in a couple more shadow strikes accelerate the number of finishers i can do. I had this whole revelation comparing my logs to simcraft. my nightblade dmg is higher than evic which was opposite on my sims and to other top rogues. there are some other things I noticed as well regarding this, I will probably make a video on this. Next tues, gonna execute on nyth/ursoc and see whats up.

Sub pre Legion was even harder and had even more opportunity costs attached to it in PVE. But that was always the charm of the spec, which is why the 2nd version of Sub made it to live in Legion instead of the alpha version which took away the decision making.

Stick it out and the satisfaction of lining things up with Sub will only make playing the spec even more satisfying with tier set bonuses. The other two specs somehow looked good on paper in the Legion alpha/beta but failed to translate onto the live game.

I never played rogue until this expansion, I can't even imagine that was harder than this. I agree, that's why I chose sub because improving your play actually boosts your dps tremendously but also it can do the opposite haha. Hopefully all this talk will translate when I raid on tues, scurrred bros!

[Deleted]

Sub pre Legion was even harder and had even more opportunity costs attached to it in PVE. But that was always the charm of the spec, which is why the 2nd version of Sub made it to live in Legion instead of the alpha version which took away the decision making.

Stick it out and the satisfaction of lining things up with Sub will only make playing the spec even more satisfying with tier set bonuses.

Really, really wish this will happen but afraid it won't

one of the problems is that Shadow Techniques is fundamentally flawed and shouldn't have replaced Honor Amongst Thieves: the latter rewarded having a feel of the spec, since you could know when to expect that extra combo point; the former, on the other hand, adds nothing to the gameplay.
Quite the opposite really, it's frustrating to see so many combo points wasted and being unable to do anything.
Anticipation now being so weak in comparison to the other two "choices" won't help either.

I feel it's a poor substitution to Premeditation which, again, required knowledge and skill, and would actually be very fun and rewarding to use with the current Shadow Dance.

Energetic stabbing random procs are another example of a gameplay mechanic detrimental to the player's "decision making" importance

[Deleted]

You shouldn't be wasting combo points as Subtlety, you use a finisher if you have >=5 combo points. If you're wasting a lot of combo points you're playing wrong.

[Deleted]

Anyone here that has a good WA for SoD and NB uptime?

Honestly make one yourselve. I tried several others, but with sub it is so important that you are on top of the action and that you receive valuable info, in the manner that works best for you personally. And with the new templates in WA2 Its really easy to craft your own wa.

[Abalon]

So question I have the sub boots, legespecially, is it worth me to eviscerated at 4 combo points or should I wait till 5 or 6? Sometimes when you go Ss Ss eve you only have 4 so I'm wondering if I should instead Ss Ss Ss eve Ss in that case thanks!

[elfporn]

You shouldn't be wasting combo points as Subtlety, you use a finisher if you have >=5 combo points. If you're wasting a lot of combo points you're playing wrong.

This isn't strictly true.

If you're using DS and Master of Shadows (and weaponmaster) You should strive for 6cp for nearly every finisher. The exception seems to be when you're in shadow dance and you want to SS-->SS-->Evisc-->SS-->SS; the best option there is to use the finisher even if you have 5cp (though with proper on-the-fly planning, you should enter dance with 2cp)

The reason for doing 6cp as much as possible is because of extra MoS procs and WM procs. That extra combo point means a chance for extra energy, which translates to more dps.

With that said, you still want to waste as little combo points as possible, while still going for 6cp for the chance to proc 80-120 energy instead of merely 40.

edit: I MEANT RELENTLESS STRIKES PROCS, NOT MoS

[Deleted]

You shouldn't be wasting combo points as Subtlety, you use a finisher if you have >=5 combo points. If you're wasting a lot of combo points you're playing wrong.

it's not rocket science, you're sitting at 4cps during a dance and, a nanosecond before pressing shadowstrike, shadow techniques procs = 1 cp lost. can't be humanly prevented.
the alternative would be wasting a couple shdance seconds and gcds waiting for a completely random proc, which may or may not happen =even bigger potential dps loss on a finality evisc/nb.

also energetic stabbing has anti-synergy with relentless strikes, despite being highest dps relic trait.

so yeah, you do waste a lot of cps and energy

[Maelstrom51]

I have been doing some sims lately, and I have some interesting (but intuitive) findings that some may find interesting:

1) Energetic Stabbing is not necessarily the best relic. I currently have three Energetic Stabbing Relics, but swapping one for Nightblade damage or Eviscerate crit chance is a minor dps increase. Losing a second one is a negligible loss. Considering Nightblade is very good for AoE, I will be looking to replace one or two of my Energetic Stabbing relics with Nightblade relics.

2) If you are one of the lucky few to get the legendary boots, Energetic Stabbing absolutely tanks in value. Nightblade damage, Shadowstrike damage, or Eviscerate crit chance are all superior by decent margins. If you already have the boots - congrats! Now start looking for different relics.

This isn't strictly true.

If you're using DS and Master of Shadows (and weaponmaster) You should strive for 6cp for nearly every finisher. The exception seems to be when you're in shadow dance and you want to SS-->SS-->Evisc-->SS-->SS; the best option there is to use the finisher even if you have 5cp (though with proper on-the-fly planning, you should enter dance with 2cp)

The reason for doing 6cp as much as possible is because of extra MoS procs and WM procs. That extra combo point means a chance for extra energy, which translates to more dps.

With that said, you still want to waste as little combo points as possible, while still going for 6cp for the chance to proc 80-120 energy instead of merely 40.

edit: I MEANT RELENTLESS STRIKES PROCS, NOT MoS

I've tried simming this, and in any situation I try, going for 6cp results in a dps loss. Do you have an APL that incorporates going for 6 point finishers without losing dps?

[shaunika123]

So question I have the sub boots, legespecially, is it worth me to eviscerated at 4 combo points or should I wait till 5 or 6? Sometimes when you go Ss Ss eve you only have 4 so I'm wondering if I should instead Ss Ss Ss eve Ss in that case thanks!

well there's nothing necessarily wrong with 3x SS 1x evis 1x SS it just makes your post dance rotation a bit more awkward
but the best path is going into dance with 1 combo point already so after 2x SS you'll be guaranteed to have 5 or 6 CPs

[elfporn]

I have been doing some sims lately, and I have some interesting (but intuitive) findings that some may find interesting:

1) Energetic Stabbing is not necessarily the best relic. I currently have three Energetic Stabbing Relics, but swapping one for Nightblade damage or Eviscerate crit chance is a minor dps increase. Losing a second one is a negligible loss. Considering Nightblade is very good for AoE, I will be looking to replace one or two of my Energetic Stabbing relics with Nightblade relics.

2) If you are one of the lucky few to get the legendary boots, Energetic Stabbing absolutely tanks in value. Nightblade damage, Shadowstrike damage, or Eviscerate crit chance are all superior by decent margins. If you already have the boots - congrats! Now start looking for different relics.



I've tried simming this, and in any situation I try, going for 6cp results in a dps loss. Do you have an APL that incorporates going for 6 point finishers without losing dps?

6cp in all situations won't work, it's most/when you can, particularly outside of SD. i don't have simmed results or an apl, it's all feelscraft from testing weaponmaster lately(because wm doesnt SEEM to be simmed correctly, despite claims)

The sims where you toggle 6cp only will definitely result in a net loss though, you're right about that. What's not quantified easily is the benefits from the extra relentless and wm procs when striving for 6cp when possible

[Maelstrom51]

Honestly I'm not feeling any benefit of going for 6cp with Weaponmaster. With sub having an energy cap of 100 again a third proc of Relentless Strikes is almost entirely wasted. You gain what, 10 energy in the best case scenario, and in most cases none over a double proc?

[elfporn]

Honestly I'm not feeling any benefit of going for 6cp with Weaponmaster. With sub having an energy cap of 100 again a third proc of Relentless Strikes is almost entirely wasted. You gain what, 10 energy in the best case scenario, and in most cases none over a double proc?

It's not about triple proccing relentless for 120 energy, it's about double proccing it for 80 (6th CP is 20% chance of second proc, wm is 6% chance) A triple is just interesting, if you're super lucky you can even get a WM proc off a WM proc, and perhaps i emphasized "oooh triple proc" a bit much, i'm just enjoying WM a lot more than MoSub, despite randomness.

A double proc means instead of finisher-->40 energy, it's finisher-->80 energy - that's huge, and outside of dance, should rarely be wasted.

If you want to sim it, sim the finsher during dance using >=5CP, and the 2 finishers after/between dance at 6cp.

Also, I've not checked, does the sim use 6cp for all finality finishers?(or atleast all finality:nightblades)