[HOLY] Another way to Heal

[wombats23]

so, i'm still not an advocate of using LotM other than on the move or when you know it's the difference between life and death.

that said, the more i think of what healing alongside others is actually like, there are "enough" situations that occur where you know you have incidental healing on you (HoTs still ticking, ground AoE heals) that perhaps you could write off the self damage it does. so, if an infallible robot was to play a hpally for a raid, the robot would probably be able to identify niche situations where the mana efficiency from a LotM, given the fact that the robot knows the self damage will be healed by spells that are already cast (i.e. no further mana will be used to make up for the self damage).

in the end though, this is extremely, extremely niche and i still cannot get over how LotM does not benefit from two golden dragon traits.

[pantong51]

LOTM is a good spell but the reason you are doing more healing with that playstyle is because you are creating more damage to heal. LOTM should be cast in situations where Flash of Light is too expensive, Holy Light is too slow and you won't put yourself in danger by damaging yourself. So I don't agree with the majority of Holy Paladins on this issue as some Holy Paladins won't even bind the key for LOTM; but it's not an ability that you should be using as your B&B either.

This. I have logged top 20 on some heroic fights as hpal. LotM Is one of the strongest single target healing spell in the game. When you have Divine Shield up, you can spam it with HS and FL-IoL Procs for extremely high output and HPM.

Also Hpal's have 2 flat damage reduction CD's under 30 sec CD. one is even around 11 sec if you have extra AP and have points in judgment. Hpal's also have an extra 15% HP, It's basically a second resource that you can use to maximize HPM during low damage parts and quick saves. The first mythic logs on Xavius for Hpal had the Hpal using Lotm around 30-50 times in 7 mins. An average of once every 14 seconds(actually it's mostly used to kill your self when you go 100% corruption and get huge heals out before MC).

But a lot of people also don't see the use of vamp aura if you have legendary shoulders + beacon of faith on fights that tanks take a lot of damage. Vamp aura lines up pretty good with our extra 15%HP it also reduces damage tanks take while above a specific HP if you are able to stack on them. ALSO with those shoulders people healing you will also keep help keep the tanks topped off. It is a great way to maximize mana efficiency and be a fun different play style. That has also topped top 20 logs on many tank heavy fights.

[Hashcrypt]

LotM is amazing. This is a situation where "basic arithmetic" doesn't do an accurate job of illustrating how good the spell is.

In a M+ setting, having a powerful instant cast heal could mean the difference between wiping or making the timer.

In raids, there's so much splash healing going on that using LotM will only result in making use of what would've otherwise been pure waste overhealing by the other healers.

Should it be spammed to the point where death is a possbility? No.

But it's a fantastic tool that any holy paladin should be making extensive use of. To ignore this spell is simply silly and asinine.

[Astraios]

FoL: 425% base x 1.4 for beacon = 595%
LotM: 500%

595%/500% = 1.19

mana: 16% (FoL) / 7.5% (LotM) - 1 = 2.13 - 1 = 1.13

The real math, for anyone with a currently meta spec'd artifact, would be as follows:

FoL: 425 base * 1.1 trait * 1.64 BoF = 766.7
LotM: 500% heal - 250% dmg = 250

HPM: FoL: 766.7/16 = 47.92
LotM: 250/7.5 = 33.33333333

As far as I can see, BoF has the top logs across most fights, and in general it provides by far the greatest HPS increase.

Not only does FOL destroy LotM by more than tripling it's real healing, it also beats it in HPM solidly as well.

If you are ignoring the self-damage of LOTM, then you are pretending the spell does something that it does not do.
There are many words for this, however none of them imply good mental health.

The reason LotM is written off, is because it does not have high effective healing. Because it IS simply bad in those contexts. It has a very niche use case, and while that use case does give it a reason to be used, it is not worth spamming.

PS: Even if I used BotLB in the calculation, FOL outheals it in any scenario where healing matters.

[Hawg]

If you are ignoring the self-damage of LOTM, then you are pretending the spell does something that it does not do.

But ignoring the fact that you can be running arround while casting LotM, the fact that splash healing more than makes up for the damage it does, the fact that you are far less likely to have your heal sniped and turned into a wasted overhealing, and the fact that it is far more mana efficient, is all ok?

Sorry, when your rotation is such that you have a choice between using a non-infused FoL or a LotM, the factors that should drive the decision on which to use are situational, not mathematical, because as was demonstrated above, 19% less healing for half the mana together with the ability to instacast and move, and not waste a cast on an overheal, make it IMHO a reasonable choice under many circumstances, but certainly not under all circumstances.

[Simulacrum]

But ignoring the fact that you can be running arround while casting LotM, the fact that splash healing more than makes up for the damage it does, the fact that you are far less likely to have your heal sniped and turned into a wasted overhealing, and the fact that it is far more mana efficient, is all ok?

Sorry, when your rotation is such that you have a choice between using a non-infused FoL or a LotM, the factors that should drive the decision on which to use are situational, not mathematical, because as was demonstrated above, 19% less healing for half the mana together with the ability to instacast and move, and not waste a cast on an overheal, make it IMHO a reasonable choice under many circumstances, but certainly not under all circumstances.

Your points in the spell's favour are points against your argument. You're basically saying that, if you're overhealing a fight so much that anything you cast that isn't instant will be overhealed and all your self-damage is just negating inevitable overhealing anyway, then lotm looks like a good spell... but then you're playing a fight that is extremely easy. You could probably be afk at that point and nobody would notice a difference. Shit, your other healers would probably be happy that you went afk, since they'd have something to actually heal instead of mindlessly spamming overheals, especially now that you're not there to snipe all their heals like a jackass and causing them to overheal instead of yourself (since, as you say, you're casting lotms on targets that would've been healed within the cast time of a fol anyway).

But if you're not doing extremely easy content, it's a really bad spell to cast outside of very few circumstances. Such as when you're moving.

[Astraios]

But ignoring the fact that you can be running arround while casting LotM, the fact that splash healing more than makes up for the damage it does, the fact that you are far less likely to have your heal sniped and turned into a wasted overhealing, and the fact that it is far more mana efficient, is all ok?

Sorry, when your rotation is such that you have a choice between using a non-infused FoL or a LotM, the factors that should drive the decision on which to use are situational, not mathematical, because as was demonstrated above, 19% less healing for half the mana together with the ability to instacast and move, and not waste a cast on an overheal, make it IMHO a reasonable choice under many circumstances, but certainly not under all circumstances.

You mean, a third of the healing, for 40% of the mana.

[Hawg]

You are looking for black and white answers in scenarios where there are too many variables to give black and white answers. I explained my logic for my opinion. If you want to disagree fine.

[Deleted]

If you aren't using LToM then you are not playing the class properly - it is a great spell between waiting for Holy Shock to come off of C/D.

Using HL and FoL a lot less these days since getting more comfortable with LToM, I used to also be negative towards it as I could envisage killing myself with it - wouldn't be without it now.

[meroko]

I am a huge fan of Martyr, and have used it extensively in my toolkit since it was added. Any serious raiding paladin would be a fool not to utilize this spell. Sure, it's not for spamming but it is a great filler heal while shock is on CD and you don't have an Infusion proc as to me the instant cast far outweighs having to cast a FoL or HL.

It's always going to get negative vibes because of the damage component and not affecting beacon, but as a serious mythic raider, I parse very well making use of it so I'll continue to use it as long as it performs well (hint: it does)

[IndoX]

I parse very well making use of it so I'll continue to use it as long as it performs well (hint: it does)

Don't think it's really an argument. I parse 85% on average and I've hardly even touched LoTM.

[Rorschachs]

Don't think it's really an argument. I parse 85% on average and I've hardly even touched LoTM.

Because people who spam LotM don't know what they are doing.

[Hawg]

Because people who spam LotM don't know what they are doing.

No one is saying "spam LotM". What we are saying is that when you get to the point in your rotation where your choice is between a non-infused FoL or a HL, LotM is a reasonable third option. If you look at the 2 min fight I modeled on the previous page, you will see that even if you always chose LotM over a non-infused FoL, you would never really be spamming it more than 2 or 3 times in a row and even then its rare.

The self damage is part of the equation in making the particular decision of what to cast at that particular time, but it is not the sole consideration.

[Rorschachs]

No one is saying "spam LotM". What we are saying is that when you get to the point in your rotation where your choice is between a non-infused FoL or a HL, LotM is a reasonable third option. If you look at the 2 min fight I modeled on the previous page, you will see that even if you always chose LotM over a non-infused FoL, you would never really be spamming it more than 2 or 3 times in a row and even then its rare.

The self damage is part of the equation in making the particular decision of what to cast at that particular time, but it is not the sole consideration.

But the person in question was spamming Lotm, meaning they don't know what they are doing and of course they won't parse well. I don't disagree with you on the rest of your post; LotM is sometimes useful but it could just be removed and we would be as good as we are now in raids.

[Gereorth666]

I was actualy thinking about making a thread about this subject, because I feel like I'm doing something wrong. As I end up using Light of the Martyr a lot more often than Holy Light/Flash of Light. My reason for this is the following: It's cheaper, heals more and is instant.

So the thing I do is cast Beacon of Light on myself, obviously. And according to the talent "Beacon of the Lightbringer" I should always benefit from full Mastery, as I'm closest I can be to my Beacon of Light target. When I'm around 95% HP and others need some "intense" healing, I make sure to cast Bestow Faith on myself to make up for the HP loss I get from Light of the Martyr. Holy Shock whenever I need to give myself some extra healing as well and Holy Light/Flash of Light depending on the situation.

I have done this in raids as well, obviously, but I felt like I couldn't trust it too much because maybe I relied too much on the other healers. So I tried it in Mythic dungeons. And it works like a charm. If I don't do it this way I seem to have a bit of trouble. Do I mind playing this way? Not at all! I like the idea of sacrificing my own health to mend others.

[pendragyn]

I personally only use LotM for the following:

In both of the conditions Ill only use it if it's crit will have zero overheal and I'm not in danger of dying myself.

1) I'm moving and holy shock, light of dawn and bestow faith are not available.

2) It will save someone from dying.

LotM just doesn't have the HPM/HPS to compete with our other spells.

I guess there is a third. When I'm trying to die for whatever reason.

[Kendaus]

The problem I have with LotM is that you're not really dealing with the loss of health... your transferring HP from you to your target and still need to use one of your other spells/talents to recover that loss. Most of the logs I've looked at (which I admit haven't been too many, just enough to figure out what others are doing) don't show take this into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but my interpretation of how the logs are parsing this talent is as follows:

Using LotM:
Tank is down 50k health... Pally casts LotM to heal (for example) (X)k on tank but takes (Y)k dmg on themselves... has to heal self for (Y)k for a total of 50k + (Y)k healing needed

Not using LotM:
Tank is down 50k health... Pally heals 50k for a total of 50k healing.

Am i missing something?

[Hawg]

But the person in question was spamming Lotm, meaning they don't know what they are doing and of course they won't parse well. I don't disagree with you on the rest of your post; LotM is sometimes useful but it could just be removed and we would be as good as we are now in raids.

If the "person in question" was meroko, he said "Sure, it's not for spamming but it's a great filler spell while shock is on CD and you don't have an infusion proc....". Maybe you missed that?

- - - Updated - - -

I was actualy thinking about making a thread about this subject, because I feel like I'm doing something wrong. As I end up using Light of the Martyr a lot more often than Holy Light/Flash of Light. My reason for this is the following: It's cheaper, heals more and is instant.

So the thing I do is cast Beacon of Light on myself, obviously. And according to the talent "Beacon of the Lightbringer" I should always benefit from full Mastery, as I'm closest I can be to my Beacon of Light target. When I'm around 95% HP and others need some "intense" healing, I make sure to cast Bestow Faith on myself to make up for the HP loss I get from Light of the Martyr. Holy Shock whenever I need to give myself some extra healing as well and Holy Light/Flash of Light depending on the situation.

I have done this in raids as well, obviously, but I felt like I couldn't trust it too much because maybe I relied too much on the other healers. So I tried it in Mythic dungeons. And it works like a charm. If I don't do it this way I seem to have a bit of trouble. Do I mind playing this way? Not at all! I like the idea of sacrificing my own health to mend others.

I don't understand why you would beacon yourself, all that is doing is exaggerating the self damage you are doing by using Lotm by robbing the tank of your beacon heals.

Let me put it another way: Lotm only makes sense on a regular basis if the self damage it does to you is damage that would be healed by "splash heals" anyway. If it is taking active healing to replace the health you lose because of Lotm then you shouldn't be using it. Now what do I mean by "splash heals"? Those are the ambient heals in the raid like a druid's mushroom or our aura of mastery.

The idea is that most of the time in a raid encounter it is not the entire raid that needs direct healing, there are usually only a few people who need direct heals (those stepping in fire or otherwise taking damage from a raid effect). When that is the case, it is ok imho to give direct healing to the people who need it immediately, while the people like you (who just got damaged by lotm) get topped off by the mushrooms of the world.

But if you are in need of healing, you shouldn't, in most cases, be using lotm.

I'll also add that you always benefit from full mastery from yourself, beacon or not (the circle of your mastery radiates from you), so your discussion about Beacon of the Lightbringer is confusing. What that talent does is it it creates a second circle for your mastery, with the center-point being your beacon target. So you are wasting that benefit when you put it on yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem I have with LotM is that you're not really dealing with the loss of health... your transferring HP from you to your target and still need to use one of your other spells/talents to recover that loss. Most of the logs I've looked at (which I admit haven't been too many, just enough to figure out what others are doing) don't show take this into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but my interpretation of how the logs are parsing this talent is as follows:

Using LotM:
Tank is down 50k health... Pally casts LotM to heal (for example) (X)k on tank but takes (Y)k dmg on themselves... has to heal self for (Y)k for a total of 50k + (Y)k healing needed

Not using LotM:
Tank is down 50k health... Pally heals 50k for a total of 50k healing.

Am i missing something?

Yes you are missing something, its the "splash healing" I talked about above. To see how powerful the ambient healing of your raid is, wait for an afk time (like the mid raid break) and try to kill yourself by spamming lotm, if your raid composition is similar to mine, its almost impossible to kill yourself like this because all those afk people are passively healing you via their various spec auras etc. So the idea is that if passive heals are going to top off your lotm damage anyway, then the damage is not really equal to y in your equation.

If the self damage does require active healing, imho you should not be casting lotm in most situations.

[gandalfwg]

Yes you are missing something, its the "splash healing" I talked about above. To see how powerful the ambient healing of your raid is, wait for an afk time (like the mid raid break) and try to kill yourself by spamming lotm, if your raid composition is similar to mine, its almost impossible to kill yourself like this because all those afk people are passively healing you via their various spec auras etc. So the idea is that if passive heals are going to top off your lotm damage anyway, then the damage is not really equal to y in your equation.

If the self damage does require active healing, imho you should not be casting lotm in most situations.

Are you taking into account your out-of-combat health regeneration? I know for me, that's a huge chunk more than the 0 in combat.

[Hawg]

Are you taking into account your out-of-combat health regeneration? I know for me, that's a huge chunk more than the 0 in combat.

Yeah that's a good point. But the answer is "sort of". Its a hard thing to get exact because while you lose out on your out of combat health regen, you gain a lot of "splash healing" from active aoe heal abilities (like mushroom) so I figure (just gut instinct) its probably a wash. But I haven't done the math on it. Even if that;s a wrong assumption, it shouldn't be wrong by much and would be unlikely to change the general point.