Is dalaran a better city now Jaina's gone?

[Friendlyimmolation]

But Warlocks are cool. Sylvanas isn't, so I don't see any connection there.

"muh opinion!"

[karumayu]

That is some headcanon!
1. We have evidence that Varimathras went rogue. Nothing indicates that Northwatch went against Jaina's orders.
2. For the Broken Shore-story we have the stories on both sides. Anyone can see that they did not betray the Alliance by playing the scenario on the Horde-side.

Fact is that Theramore attacked before Garrosh "started" the war.
If you have any evidence to contradict that fact, you are free to provide it.
Whining about it like a little kid isn't going to get this discussion any further.

Twilight cultists instigated the war by attacking a Night elf caravan and pinning it on the Horde. This led to the peace and trade treaty between the factions being broken and increase the hostility between Orcs and Night Elves. This is from the book The Shattering - Which is pre cataclysm.

Jaina, Theramore and the Alliance from Eastern Kingdoms expand into the Barrens to aid their Night Elven allies. So, yes, Theramore did engage the horde first. I have not claimed anything else on that matter. In a game of two factions there can be no clear cut "bad" side as both Alliance and Horde are justified in one way or another in their actions. Horde can't absolve their sovereignty and give in to all of the Alliance demands, nor can they ignore their situation of dwindling resources. On the other side Alliance can't accept the horde giving refuge to murderers (according to them, the twilight plot did work) and Theramore can't abandon their Night Elven allies either.

What is childish here is people refusing to see both side of the story and incapable of even considering the situation from the other faction's perspective.

I do not see the Broken Shore event as a betrayal, because as you said I am capable of doing or watching it from the Horde perspective. It was a utterly hopeless situation and both factions got caught into a trap. At the same time I am capable of seeing it from Genn's viewpoint and not let the meta knowledge influence my thoughts on his grudge. Lets for argument say that instead of Genn, it wa Anduin standing beside his father. He will obviously consider that horde must have their reasons to retreat, but it was Genn. A person who already holds an immense prejudice towards the horde and especially the forsaken. For him it is more believable that the horde left them to die rather than retreating out of necessity.

So to sum up - Me as a player (many other Alliance players) do not see the horde as betrayers. NPC of alliance can and will view it as a betrayal as that is the narrative being put forth.

[Tripzzz]

1. She didn't, that is why she had her eyes on him all that time.
2. This thread is about Jaina, not Sylvanas.
3. You have a very harsh standard for intelligence. If her mistakes are considered retarded, how would you call your posting which is of considerably less intelligence than anything Sylvanas has done.

1. She got played like a fiddle by a dreadlord, if she wasn't stupid, she could have seen the inevitable outcome. Her eyes on him did jack shit to prevent the betrayal.
2. True enough.
3. She is retarded. She is literally the only Leader who got bit in the ass by her pet dreadlord. Because no other leader is dumb enough to make a dreadlord their pet. She thought she was being clever but she was really just falling into an obvious trap.

Got any examples or are you just making up shit?

- - - Updated - - -

How? By using stronger strain of Blight they didn't have at the time?

Rewatch the Wrathgate cinematic. The blight used by Putress was strong enough to make the Lich king retreat.

[karumayu]

How is any of that related?

It is related because you ar flinging around that Alliance and Theramore attacked the horde without any reason, which is not true.

Cool story.
But the topic is Jaina.
And especially the way she reacted after Theramore, all bitter because the Horde attacked her city even though she was asking for it.

The topic is actually if the Dalaran is better under Khdagar. But as any mention of Jaina brings out a number of players popping up to declare her a dreadlord and equal amount of players who will defend her actions, it has now been derailed to who started the war back in cataclysm.

I too understand his point of view.
But since this is /Lore and not /Roleplay I prefer to look at it from all sides and look at the facts, not opinions.

So me saying that Genn's actions were understandable from his viewpoint is roleplaying? So how exactly are you going to tell Genn that he is wrong about the horde? Maybe I'm just wasting time trying to show you that all NPCs act with limited knowledge and each has their characterization.

[dd614]

Horde came into Dalaran. They're murderers. They're rapists. And I assume some are good people. Make Dalaran great again!

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

Twilight cultists instigated the war by attacking a Night elf caravan and pinning it on the Horde. This led to the peace and trade treaty between the factions being broken and increase the hostility between Orcs and Night Elves. This is from the book The Shattering - Which is pre cataclysm.

Except the Night Elves broke the trade treaty over Wrathgate.

Jaina, Theramore and the Alliance from Eastern Kingdoms expand into the Barrens to aid their Night Elven allies. So, yes, Theramore did engage the horde first.

Considering how the Horde wasn't doing anything to the Night Elves at the time there was no need to aid the Night Elves through military action.

I have not claimed anything else on that matter. In a game of two factions there can be no clear cut "bad" side as both Alliance and Horde are justified in one way or another in their actions. Horde can't absolve their sovereignty and give in to all of the Alliance demands, nor can they ignore their situation of dwindling resources. On the other side Alliance can't accept the horde giving refuge to murderers (according to them, the twilight plot did work) and Theramore can't abandon their Night Elven allies either.

Except the Horde denied involvement and said they'll investigate things. And Twilight Hammer killed Night Elves and Tauren alike and their leader even pretended not to know who Garrosh even is. That's not exactly anything particularly damning towards the Horde.

At the same time I am capable of seeing it from Genn's viewpoint and not let the meta knowledge influence my thoughts on his grudge. Lets for argument say that instead of Genn, it wa Anduin standing beside his father. He will obviously consider that horde must have their reasons to retreat, but it was Genn. A person who already holds an immense prejudice towards the horde and especially the forsaken. For him it is more believable that the horde left them to die rather than retreating out of necessity.

Except it not being a betrayal was available information from Alliance position. There's nothing justifying Genn's claim of betrayal other than his rampant confirmation bias.

Rewatch the Wrathgate cinematic. The blight used by Putress was strong enough to make the Lich king retreat.

And your claim was that he could have been killed was it not for Sylvanas. So I'll ask again, how?

[Deleted]

.....

Except it not being a betrayal was available information from Alliance position. There's nothing justifying Genn's claim of betrayal other than his rampant confirmation bias.


....

That is not true, that's the whole point of the scheme. The ships that took the ridge under fire were called in from the very back of the place, where you could only see the scene if you were on said ridge and paying attention. The majority of the troops were literally standing there waiting till the Horde was finished or sounded a retreat and only after the Horde has vanished you see demons on the ridge from the Alliance side. I played both scenarios several times, and I paid attention specifically for that, to see how it was set up.
Not to speak of the fact that the whole thing was a trap for the Horde and Alliance to begin with. They were expecting a spearheading force from the Legion there to fight. A big fight, but not in the least did any of them know what was really there. The Legion took care of that. And afterwards they had their agents feeding false information to the Alliance. You remedy that only later in the story of the Uncrowned, to be exact it is the very last quest for them.
So, we as players know what happened. But the NPCs react exactly as they should react without the knowledge we have. They don't get to play the other side or watch videos. They have to take what they see and hear at face value.
Could they maybe think a little more before acting? Maybe. But even that would be no good, because even if they waited for intelligence to be gathered on the whole business and checked twice, they would have false information.
New hostilities were inevitable, exactly like the Legion planned. Maybe from the point where the faction learn about that they can start reacting differently. But that point comes after all the events that have played out until now.

It was like that in every faction war starting again, and again and again. First, before WoW even started, the faction war got fired up again by demons. After that it was the Twilights Hammer every single time, until this time, where it was the Legion.
The times before Legion I kept thinking, that all the faction leaders must be total morons for falling for the same trick every time without even checking. It was the major point in which I always thought Jaina was better, she tried to look beyond things at least. But.. well, she just went nuts too then. And even worse, she didn't come around again after thinking it through.
This time is the first time I think, they cannot know and it's at least half-ok to fall for it, because they actually have no means of checking again and coming up with results that reflect the real situation.

[Mehrunes]

That is not true, that's the whole point of the scheme. The ships that took the ridge under fire were called in from the very back of the place, where you could only see the scene if you were on said ridge and paying attention. The majority of the troops were literally standing there waiting till the Horde was finished or sounded a retreat and only after the Horde has vanished you see demons on the ridge from the Alliance side. I played both scenarios several times, and I paid attention specifically for that, to see how it was set up.

So, we as players know what happened. But the NPCs react exactly as they should react without the knowledge we have. They don't get to play the other side or watch videos. They have to take what they see and hear at face value.

You can see the ships just fine from Alliance position. And you can see them shooting bright green beams of death at the Horde position even more fine. Unless Alliance suffers from collective tunnel vision of monumental proportions at least the beams should have been noticed. And the demons appear at the edge of the ridge 15 or 20 seconds after Horde left. With the Horde troops that were located there prior to the retreat being archers. Archers that didn't even focus on the Horde front. So ultimate back line. Now, slowly marching demons arrive at Horde's line furthest back from their front. What's the logical conclusion to make? That their ranks have been shattered? Or ERMAHGERD BETRAYAL? Finally, the gunship arrived around the time of Horde's retreat. It offered aerial view of the Horde position and the situation up there first for the crew and then for the retreating ground forces. And should show them a swarm of demons instead of MUH BETRAYAL. But Genn is full of shit so he ignored inconvenient data.

[Deleted]

One things you don't consider:

It's Genn. He's Awesome, he's the King, he can do whatever he wants.

[Deleted]

You can not see the ships, they were at the very far back of the thing, you can't even see them before they fire on Horde side, unless you really pay attention.
And yes, Genn could make of it, what we make of it. But why should he? He does not trust Sylvanas and he sees: Horde retreats, demons show up. Even if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt that he asked for intel afterwards on what happened (which I don't think he did, because yes, he was being far too convinced and rash), he would have been told by the Stormwind Intelligence Agency that the Horde had indeed turned on them. That was the plan from the beginning and it worked.

[Deleted]

And we shouldn'T forget: Genn already has his reason to fight the Horde. What he needs isn't a reason, but an excuse to attack them.

[Deleted]

That is certainly true. But I do think that is something all our common enemies are counting on, the fact that we will take any excuse to go to war with the other side and usually they are right.
I wish we could somehow create a situation where for once this won't work and we turn the tables on them. But that would probably be a boring game, all about spying and diplomacy. I would certainly like the 'spy' part, but I don't know about diplomacy (in a game) ^^

[Trassk]

One things you don't consider:

It's Genn. He's Awesome, he's the King, he can do whatever he wants.

You mean except avoid arrows.

[Aquamonkey]

You mean except avoid arrows.

Genn can avoid arrows as long as he has children.

[Verdugo]

Genn can avoid arrows as long as he has children.

Kids are the best body armor.

Just ask Dezco.

[Tripzzz]

And your claim was that he could have been killed was it not for Sylvanas. So I'll ask again, how?

Putress attacked the Alliance, the Horde and the Lich King at the Wrathgate. If Sylvanus wasn't incompetent and had an actual loyal forsaken be the Grand Apothecary leading that attack, things would have turned out different. It is simple logic. Dranosh's forces could have lured the Lich King out of his citadel, while the loyal Grand Apothecary could use a predetermined signal to get Dranosh's group to retreat out of harm's way before dropping the Blight surprise attack on the Lich King.

[Mehrunes]

You can not see the ships, they were at the very far back of the thing, you can't even see them before they fire on Horde side, unless you really pay attention.

Considering that checking it was the only reason why I bothered doing Broken Shore on my Alliance character and I could see them even with low drawing difference, yes, you can. Hell, one of them isn't even behind the ridge, but to the left of it, between the ridge and the Tomb. I have doubts about you paying attention like you claimed.

And yes, Genn could make of it, what we make of it. But why should he? He does not trust Sylvanas and he sees: Horde retreats, demons show up. Even if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt that he asked for intel afterwards on what happened (which I don't think he did, because yes, he was being far too convinced and rash), he would have been told by the Stormwind Intelligence Agency that the Horde had indeed turned on them. That was the plan from the beginning and it worked.

That's not exactly an argument against his confirmation bias.

Putress attacked the Alliance, the Horde and the Lich King at the Wrathgate. If Sylvanus wasn't incompetent and had an actual loyal forsaken be the Grand Apothecary leading that attack, things would have turned out different. It is simple logic. Dranosh's forces could have lured the Lich King out of his citadel, while the loyal Grand Apothecary could use a predetermined signal to get Dranosh's group to retreat out of harm's way before dropping the Blight surprise attack on the Lich King.

Considering that the Blight used at the Wrathgate actually hit the Lich King but didn't, you know, kill him, how? Besides, Sylvanas didn't have anyone leading the attack, Putress went there on his own.

[Zulkhan]

The line about sound advice is said before you recover the tome. You're wrong right off the bat.

Da fuck? How is relevant that is said before you recover the tome? Fact is that because of that you're sent to recover said tome. The shaman tells you as much:

"Once I have a chance to gather all the knowledge available I can provide sound council to the Chieftain."

"The Compendium of the Fallen is just one piece in this complicated puzzle..."

The quest gives you rep with thunder bluff and Forsaken players are unable to even accept the quest. Based on this we know for a fact it's related to the Tauren being the one's who helped the Forsaken enter the Horde.

Forsaken aren't able to accept such quest because the whole point of the quest is doubting their loyalty. And the fact that you get rep with Thunder Bluff means jackshit in regards of an overall Tauren's involvement with a cure or that research of a cure was anything relevant as for why the Forsaken joined the Horde. Ofcourse, the quest mentions Cairne and pretty much imply his responsibility in accepting the Forsaken, but nowhere is barely hinted anything in regards of a cure. You just twisted the shit out of that quest to suggest that.

No it's not just one apothecary talking about a cure. Both Chemist Curly and Grand apothecary Putress spoke of a cure.

Chemist Curly is the apothecary involved in the chain so I don't get your need to mention him again and Putress' research of a cure had nothing to do with the Forsaken themselves.

The dying tauren even says she heard the Forsaken were seeking a cure for their illness.

Yeah she heard rumors, but rumors alone say nothing about how many Forsaken were involved with this, how much effort was put in such research and even less that such research was brought forward because of a pact with the Horde. This is mentioned nowhere. We only have Chemist Curly arguing about what it definitely looks like a personal and/or independent research.

The way Putress speaks to the Forsaken player(note it is different for all other races) proves that seeking a cure for the plague is common knowledge among the Forsaken.

Wait, you mean this?

"In our search for a cure, we have learned so much of the Scourge and their contagion."

which is said exactly after this?

"The zombie plague was a blessing in disguise."

Oh.

So we got Putress talking as if all forsaken agree with the methods used to seek a cure

What a ridiculous twist. Putress merely says that the Forsaken player would agree that the end justify the mean. Then he talks about their recent research about the zombie's plague. Did you notice that "zombie"? It specifically refers to the plague unleashed by the Lich King during the zombie apocalypse event, before the official release of WotLK. Read it again since you didn't clearly pay attention:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Questesperate_Research

and a tauren stating she has heard of such rumors.

Yeah, confirmed by just Curly himself. Which, again, does nothing to prove what you desperately want to prove.

Basically you're wrong.

I can't be wrong when all you're doing is twisting shit and barely understanding what I was arguing to begin with.

And while you need to twist shit to "prove" a point, I have the available explanation saying cut and clear on which terms the Forsaken were accepted in the Horde and for which reasons. None of these spoke about a cure. So yes, you're bloody wrong.

[Deleted]

You mean except avoid arrows.

Avoiding arrows is something people need who can't take a black arrow and don't give a shit about it.

[Mehrunes]

Avoiding arrows is something people need who can't take a black arrow, limp away and collapse like a little bitch that needs to be rescued by other Worgen.

Fixed it for you.