[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

How will those changes affect our stat priority?
Watcher mentioned some problems with stats and items that have a higher itemlvl but are worse than what you already have (and as a ret it seems to be a problem that occurs very often.. at least for me ._.).
He also said they don't want to fix something like this by force but with changes over time if i understood him correctly.
Especiallcy with Crusade and Blade of Wrath changes, will we see a higher impact of Haste and Mastery? I would like it, because those are our "specc interacting stats".

[Krothare]

I don't mind the changes to Crusade but I do mind that its currently a big DPS loss for no reason. Can't they just make it 35% baseline and get rid of the whole stacking thing, it doesn't make sense if you gotta do it one GCD at a time.

[Deleted]

After 7.1 our stats pro will remain almost identical - haste will be more important over rest of stats beacuse it WILL have value on wings.

Current crusade lowers value of extra haste during wings cause it doesn't change much if u have 70% or 85% haste after 10secs of crusade.

About Crusade change -its MASSIVE dps nerf on ST - bringing us maybe a little under ST dps that we were before pre-raid buffs.

Its even bigger aoe DPS nerf for big packs - for now mainly in higher M+. After u get 8+ targets haste sims almost double value of rest stats and like 4x times mastery.

[Deleted]

called that right after 7.1 PTR launch, its great that rets now have 1 100 Talent instead of 2 NICE!! That SoL ist removed makes 7.1 even better.

[Fullmetalmoo]

It isn't on 21 second CD lol - it obviously can't be, are you new to the game or something?

it's a 21 second recharge on a 2 min CD pending a final pass, maybe you should do research

[Torchbringer]

it's a 21 second recharge on a 2 min CD pending a final pass, maybe you should do research

no. it isn't. it's clear that nobody is going to convince you though so I'll let you see if it makes it live.

[ThePants999]

Just tested new Crusade on PTR. Not only was it clearly lower DPS than DP on a dummy, it was also a massive nerf to FUN. Well, it was nice to enjoy the class for a few weeks.

New crusade is 21 second CD on recharges

Dude. Seriously. It's a 21 second CD on a 2 min recharge. The CD is irrelevant, it's just there to stop you abusing T18 2pc. You get Crusade every 2 minutes, exactly the same as wings, or Crusade on live.

Do you seriously think we're going to get our major DPS CD available every 21 seconds!? Suuure, 100% wings uptime, let's go bois

[Titans]

"Edit: I assume these """""theorycrafters""""" aren't really taking into account the value of more frequent uptime on crusade as well."

Pros:
-More holy power generation ability (not even remotely a problem already though)

Cons:
-Maximum stacks give less of a % damage increase.
-Stacks don't increase haste.
-Currently, stacks are generated at a rate of 3 stacks per 3-4 gcds. Under the new one, if judgment is up every second gcd, stacks will be generated at a rate of 2 per 4 gcds.
-Could lead to wasting holy power by using judgement at capped HP to get another stack before using a templars verdict


I can see it being used for people with the Lawbringer ability in battlegrounds to multidot, but in a raiding environment it is basically just a nerf under the guise of a talent change. Yet a flat nerf would be preferable to maintain the crusade playstyle. Under the status quo, crusade at maximum stacks is like a mini lust where we also hit hard. Under this new one, it's the same as the rotation outside of wings except we use judgement at 4 holy power instead of 5.

But hey, at least holy wrath is getting buffed, so that ability noone will ever use due to its reliance on damage taken can hit harder.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Nerf is preferable to maintain playstyle..?
I don't even.

[Titans]

The new changes are a damage nerf that are a negative rotation change. I'd rather just take the damage nerf we are getting anyways instead of that + shitty judgement spam.

Edit: To clarify, my point is that i'd rather just take x% damage nerf than x% damage nerf + these changes.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The idea behind current Crusade is to jug out an ungodly amount of 1kk+ TVs .
The new one has nothing to do with it.

[TheZ]

Because changing the type of player to anything other than elite just assumes you're a muppet. Have to bear in mind that it's not worth anyone's time coming up with a detailed model for a poorer quality player when the theorycrafters have enough on their plate modelling things as it is.

I agree with you on that it might be a waste of time for people to develop a more sub-optimal model, but then I don't see the point of being able to change skill level within the options if you're only meant to use the elite parameter.
-----
Still uncertain on if fires of justice stacks with 4pc. If anyone has an update on that it would be great.

[Basemath]

Nerf is preferable to maintain playstyle..?
I don't even.

Why can't you even?

Crusade as it is now is a lot of fun. They take out the haste portion of it, it's less fun. I bet the majority of Rets are more sad about losing the play-style than they are about the damage nerf.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Why can't you even?

Crusade as it is now is a lot of fun. They take out the haste portion of it, it's less fun. I bet the majority of Rets are more sad about losing the play-style than they are about the damage nerf.

No.
Fun is subjective, numbers are objective.
A fun spec that can't reach DPS quota is a forlorn spec.

[Taeldorian]

No.
Fun is subjective, numbers are objective.
A fun spec that can't reach DPS quota is a forlorn spec.

Pfft, rip half the dps specs in the game if that's the case.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Pfft, rip half the dps specs in the game if that's the case.

Exactly.
No sane raidleader will want you in his party if all your spec does is "be fun".

[Basemath]

No.
Fun is subjective, numbers are objective.
A fun spec that can't reach DPS quota is a forlorn spec.

Ahh subjective... A word so overused it almost lost its purpose.

Clear me up on your position, because I was under the impression that you were full on non-scripted PvP. You like the Crusader change because it's good for PvP? Or you do PvE and you hate the change just like the rest of us? The change being the nerf to both the fun factor and possibly the DPS factor.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Ahh subjective... A word so overused it almost lost its purpose.

Fun is subjective nevertheless.
Fun is an opinion.
Everyone has an opinion.

Clear me up on your position, because I was under the impression that you were full on non-scripted PvP. You like the Crusader change because it's good for PvP? Or you do PvE and you hate the change just like the rest of us? The change being the nerf to both the fun factor and possibly the DPS factor.

I do both Dragonslaying and Slaying of Non-Scripted Adeversaries.

I hate this change regarding Dragonslaying because our ST damage will plummet(not to mention this so very wonderful boW change) , and I fething hate this change regarding PvP because it sets us up for an imminent, brutal nerf. There is no way in hell they will let Rets spam 400k Judgements on the whole enemy team every 3 seconds for half a minute in arena.
It's a lose/lose change.

Ofcourse I would love to see buffs to my spec in PvP, but balanced and thought-out ones.(not like we weren't hotfix-nerfed the other day)
This one is neither of.
Ofcourse I would come buckets at the sight of return of Hammer of Wrath, but this is not it.

[Melkorr]

I'm at 870 ilvl as Holy, had to switch to ret for the guild, I'm at 861 ilvl because stats > ilvl imo.
I currently have Crit 25.5%, Haste 26.79%, Mastery 27.81%, Versatility 0%

What's the downside of having Versatility at 0%? I'm pulling around 220k dps on Boss dummy and 340k+ with Crusade.

[Lumineus]

Well because of the way secondary stats work in Legion, eventually you will not be able to advance haste or crit as quickly so ultimately versatility will become the stat you are trying to get more of until you exhaust the diminishing returns on that as well. Then, well, it's probably back to more haste and crit because mastery is just THAT bad.