Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

It's not about triple proccing relentless for 120 energy, it's about double proccing it for 80 (6th CP is 20% chance of second proc, wm is 6% chance) A triple is just interesting, if you're super lucky you can even get a WM proc off a WM proc, and perhaps i emphasized "oooh triple proc" a bit much, i'm just enjoying WM a lot more than MoSub, despite randomness.

A double proc means instead of finisher-->40 energy, it's finisher-->80 energy - that's huge, and outside of dance, should rarely be wasted.

If you want to sim it, sim the finsher during dance using >=5CP, and the 2 finishers after/between dance at 6cp.

Also, I've not checked, does the sim use 6cp for all finality finishers?(or atleast all finality:nightblades)

The sim uses >=5 CP, hence this is what I said in my post. It has been tested using 6 CPs for all finishers and Finality finishers and it's an overall DPS loss.

[Conjwa]

Haven't had a chance to test weaponmaster in raid yet, but it feels bad seeing all my numbers hit for less lol

[elfporn]

The sim uses >=5 CP, hence this is what I said in my post. It has been tested using 6 CPs for all finishers and Finality finishers and it's an overall DPS loss.

Please read my post. I know it's been tested for all at 6cp, i did not know if it had been tested for all finality.

What's not been simmed (afaik) is what i put forth. I want to know if it's a dps loss to try and proc extra energy outside of dance instead of just using finishers at 5cp. When you're outside of dance and your builder generates 1cp, it follows that you max cp, then use finisher, with the only possible loss being from shadow tech (which we can't predict or control).

It's also been said that using 6cp for Finality: Nightblade is recommended over using 5, at all times (not by me) as far as i know, this hasn't been simmed either.

These are nuances within the rotation:

Generally you will do (start with 1/2cp)SD-->ss-->ss-->finisher(5/6cp)-->ss-->ss-->build to 5/6-->finisher-->build to 5/6-->finisher-->repeat.

What i propose being a possible gain is:

(Start with 1/2 cp)SD-->ss-->ss-->finisher(5/6cp)-->ss-->ss-->build to 6-->finisher--build to 6-->finisher--repeat.

The gain is in the extra chance for more energy injected into the rotation, in the above basic example, you have an extra 20% chance on 2 of 3 finishers to gain 40 additional energy for each of those two finishers.

That's in a bubble of course, in an actual raid situation you'd have to adjust more for shadow tech procs, mechanics, and burst windows.

[Deleted]

Please read my post. I know it's been tested for all at 6cp, i did not know if it had been tested for all finality.

What's not been simmed (afaik) is what i put forth. I want to know if it's a dps loss to try and proc extra energy outside of dance instead of just using finishers at 5cp. When you're outside of dance and your builder generates 1cp, it follows that you max cp, then use finisher, with the only possible loss being from shadow tech (which we can't predict or control).

It's also been said that using 6cp for Finality: Nightblade is recommended over using 5, at all times (not by me) as far as i know, this hasn't been simmed either.

These are nuances within the rotation:

Generally you will do (start with 1/2cp)SD-->ss-->ss-->finisher(5/6cp)-->ss-->ss-->build to 5/6-->finisher-->build to 5/6-->finisher-->repeat.

What i propose being a possible gain is:

(Start with 1/2 cp)SD-->ss-->ss-->finisher(5/6cp)-->ss-->ss-->build to 6-->finisher--build to 6-->finisher--repeat.

The gain is in the extra chance for more energy injected into the rotation, in the above basic example, you have an extra 20% chance on 2 of 3 finishers to gain 40 additional energy for each of those two finishers.

That's in a bubble of course, in an actual raid situation you'd have to adjust more for shadow tech procs, mechanics, and burst windows.

This has all been simmed by Aethys who mostly maintains the sub APL in the default profile. This has been discussed in IRC on multiple occasions and ALWAYS using 6 CP on Finality is an overall DPS loss. So I am not quite sure who's been telling you to always use 6 CP on a Finality finisher, but it's incorrect.

[elfporn]

This has all been simmed by Aethys who mostly maintains the sub APL in the default profile. This has been discussed in IRC on multiple occasions and ALWAYS using 6 CP on Finality is an overall DPS loss. So I am not quite sure who's been telling you to always use 6 CP on a Finality finisher, but it's incorrect.

still didn't read my post. The question about always using 6 on finality was just a curiosity, and had nothing to do with almost everything i wrote. But you go on holding up the default rogue apl's that aethys and skasch built. The slight adjustment i'm favoring right now for my rotation is likely only a slight dps difference either way.

If you take the time to do more than read the first line of my well spaced, non-wall-of-text post...well, you might do more than say the same exact thing in every reply.

Maybe ill get some extra time and just write in the altered rotation myself. atm i'm too busy to take care of it.

[Deleted]

still didn't read my post. The question about always using 6 on finality was just a curiosity, and had nothing to do with almost everything i wrote. But you go on holding up the default rogue apl's that aethys and skasch built. The slight adjustment i'm favoring right now for my rotation is likely only a slight dps difference either way.

If you take the time to do more than read the first line of my well spaced, non-wall-of-text post...well, you might do more than say the same exact thing in every reply.

Maybe ill get some extra time and just write in the altered rotation myself. atm i'm too busy to take care of it.

I read your post perfectly fine. You're assuming your modified rotation is an increase, and I'm basically telling you it's already been tested and found to not be an increase.

[elfporn]

I read your post perfectly fine. You're assuming your modified rotation is an increase, and I'm basically telling you it's already been tested and found to not be an increase.

According to your exact words(That 6cp ONLY sims have been found to be a dps loss), it hasnt been tested.

iirc the testing done was for 6cp only. And it was done for all the specs, and it was a dps loss. But what i want to write in is not 6cp only, and afaik it hasn't been tested.

Perhaps you're confused about what i was writing about, no big deal, once i get the time ill just do it myself instead of asking if anyone else has done it. Logically, minimizing CP waste for energy gains would be a dps increase, but you're saying we should just be like "fuck it, if i see five, i use five, instead of backstabbing for 1cp to get 6"

[Deleted]

According to your exact words(That 6cp ONLY sims have been found to be a dps loss), it hasnt been tested.

iirc the testing done was for 6cp only. And it was done for all the specs, and it was a dps loss. But what i want to write in is not 6cp only, and afaik it hasn't been tested.

Perhaps you're confused about what i was writing about, no big deal, once i get the time ill just do it myself instead of asking if anyone else has done it. Logically, minimizing CP waste for energy gains would be a dps increase, but you're saying we should just be like "fuck it, if i see five, i use five, instead of backstabbing for 1cp to get 6"

"It has been tested using 6 CPs for all finishers _and_ Finality finishers".

And using Backstab to get to 6 CP when you're at 5 CP is a DPS loss overall. Using Backstab for 1 CP and it's shit damage isn't worth it.

[elfporn]

"It has been tested using 6 CPs for all finishers _and_ Finality finishers".

And using Backstab to get to 6 CP when you're at 5 CP is a DPS loss overall. Using Backstab for 1 CP and it's shit damage isn't worth it.

You're still missing the point.

[Deleted]

You're still missing the point.

You're not making your point obvious then, because everything you have literally suggested here has been tested in the APL before it's been committed to the repository.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, I was wondering what would be considered the best legendary for subtlety in mythics+?

I know the boots are listed as number one for single target, but considering mythics+ require more cleaving I assume the Insignia would be the best bet here, or would any of the other legendaries beat it in a dungeon-environment?

[FenrizZJ]

Hey guys, I was wondering what would be considered the best legendary for subtlety in mythics+?

I know the boots are listed as number one for single target, but considering mythics+ require more cleaving I assume the Insignia would be the best bet here, or would any of the other legendaries beat it in a dungeon-environment?

for M+ I wonder if the cloak is worth it too. The stacking bonus dmg on shuriken storm could be nice.

[elfporn]

You're not making your point obvious then, because everything you have literally suggested here has been tested in the APL before it's been committed to the repository.

The point is to maximize the chance to double energy returns on finishers by using finishers at 6cp when feasible, while minimizing cp wastage/loss.

The simple rule of using finishers at >=5cp as a hard and fast rule isn't specific or detailed enough(imo).

And that's it.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey guys, I was wondering what would be considered the best legendary for subtlety in mythics+?

I know the boots are listed as number one for single target, but considering mythics+ require more cleaving I assume the Insignia would be the best bet here, or would any of the other legendaries beat it in a dungeon-environment?

Ring would be best. Cloak is a burst aoe type of item - something you would use in conjunction with dfa to quickly down a large pack of adds, useful in some dungeons, but not most.

[Unspunreality]

So amr doesn't simulate the possibility of quest items upgrading and I know this is very minor but I do wanna know whats better. Atm Im obv sub using an 845 chest with 915 crit, 366 haste. But the quest item from Ravencrest's legacy upgraded for me to 840 and is 494 haste and 763 mastery.

All in all -6 armor, -56 agi, -84 stamina, -915 crit, +128 haste, +763 mastery. And amr is simming agi > mastery > vers > crit > damage > haste. So Im wondering if since its only a 5ilevel difference, are the robes better? The robes themselves arent in the amr database for an epic upgrade so I cant check.

Edit: Also I know Im obv not 900 ilevel or whatever to be super efficient sub, but Im playing it cause I enjoy the spec so I wanna do as best as it as I can now.

[Deleted]

So amr doesn't simulate the possibility of quest items upgrading and I know this is very minor but I do wanna know whats better. Atm Im obv sub using an 845 chest with 915 crit, 366 haste. But the quest item from Ravencrest's legacy upgraded for me to 840 and is 494 haste and 763 mastery.

All in all -6 armor, -56 agi, -84 stamina, -915 crit, +128 haste, +763 mastery. And amr is simming agi > mastery > vers > crit > damage > haste. So Im wondering if since its only a 5ilevel difference, are the robes better? The robes themselves arent in the amr database for an epic upgrade so I cant check.

Edit: Also I know Im obv not 900 ilevel or whatever to be super efficient sub, but Im playing it cause I enjoy the spec so I wanna do as best as it as I can now.

if i item doesnt have mastery on it unless its lot higher ilvl usaly isnt gonna be worth to use it for sub, like i can use 10ilvl hiigher chest on my rogue with pure haste instead of my crit/Mastery one, but its only 100agility more and my finsihers do 20k or so less dmg.

[Unspunreality]

if i item doesnt have mastery on it unless its lot higher ilvl usaly isnt gonna be worth to use it for sub, like i can use 10ilvl hiigher chest on my rogue with pure haste instead of my crit/Mastery one, but its only 100agility more and my finsihers do 20k or so less dmg.

So embrace the 840 mastery quest chest. Got it.

[Deleted]

The simple rule of using finishers at >=5cp as a hard and fast rule isn't specific or detailed enough(imo).

It's a rule that was agreed upon after testing multiple ideas in the Subtlety APL that included different combo point amounts, pooling, etc. It's not just some randomly decided upon figure. It's been tested.

[elfporn]

It's a rule that was agreed upon after testing multiple ideas in the Subtlety APL that included different combo point amounts, pooling, etc. It's not just some randomly decided upon figure. It's been tested.

No shit. But i don't treat sims, and their APL's as gospel. And they can always be tweaked. Even in WoD sub's apl was being tweaked well after hfc was on farm status.

But its been boiled down to "use finishers at >=5cp at all times" This translates as advice to people playing the game that they should never try for the 6th combo point, even if it has zero cost (shadow tech) or creates the opportunity to double energy returns from relentless strikes.

So what i hear from you, is that even in any situation, no matter what, even if it costs nothing, never bother to get that 6th combo point, despite the benefits.

[Deleted]

yo guys,
just new to "new" sub.. as im slowly switching from outlaw.. how im supposed to play around fatality? i mean should i overlap my nighblade just to not waste my fatality proc or i just skipp it with evis? another way i see is to renew nightblade with low cp and than full points fatality one?
if someone can explain me "Strategy" plan behin that it would be awesome

[CasualNoob]

renew nightblade with low cp and than full points fatality one?

No. Low cp fatality give you lesser bonus (+4% bonus damage per cp). As far as i know there are no any significant strategy around fatality. You can try to apply non-empowered nightblade at last seconds of fatality-empowered (or right after it expire) and apply fatality-empowered nightblade as soon as pandemic allows. With perfect play this can give you whopping 1% increase in ST dps. But i don't think that you should bother with this, especially if you are "new" - complex rotation can actually gimp ur dpiez.