The RNG Brickwall

[Reyll]

I don't think I've ever read something as false as this. FFXIV uses a system that is very similar to the old Honor/Justice badges, and a token system for the main raid. There is NOWHERE FUCKING NEAR the amount of RNG in FFXIV compared to current WowD3.

If you hate FFXIV, that's your opinion, but don't freaking spew false bullshit like that. Makes your opinion invalid.

Since my post says "game" and not just "raiding", let me spell it out for you.

Crafting: It is % chance based to make a HQ item and you have a chance to fail making a HQ item at 99% chance and then AFTER that, you have a chance to lose all your materials into making the item. Literally millions of gil to try and HQ the latest crafting gear can go down the toilet from a wrong press of one button.

Golden Saucer: Cactpot and minicactpot ticket. Scratch offs and a literal lottery system. Farming triple triad cards where you have to beat an NPC over and over and over to get a chance for the card you want to drop with no alternate ways of getting it through dungeons or whatnot and no stacking bad protection system. Breeding chocobo's with no certain allotment of stats and you have no idea how the stat spread will be. If you get a shitty chocobo that isn't good for racing, WOOPS TIME TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN. Sounds like RNG to me.

Relic Weapons: In ARR, you had to farm dungeon drops to make the weapon. If you didn't get it that run, guess what? Run it again. Did you get a stacking "bad luck protection bonus" for it? Nope. It was literally too bad, so sad, run it again. Tam-Tara Hard Mode ran 122 for my drop for one item says hello.

Wondrous Tails: "Hey, go back and do old content for credit on this tic tac toe board and if you line something up, you get something neat!" Disclaimer: You get marks in random spots that aren't even guaranteed to make a line in any capacity so all that effort could have been for naught.

Since you happened to mention raiding, yes, they use a token system NOW but even then, you don't get a bad luck protection for rolling for gears and shit. The point of my post and making this point was that at least WoW has implemented systems to counter bad RNG in different ways and doesn't tack on the concept of RNG to almost EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the game, as 14 does. If I was specifically talking about the raiding RNG in both games, I would have said so. You cherry-picked that specific system for your arguement that should have been in the game in the first place and failed to mention all the other aspects of that game that has been riddled with shitty RNG.

I never said I hated FFXIV in my post and you seem triggered that I called out that game in particular for its RNG systems. You jumping to conclusions like that make YOUR opinion seem invalid, but you should try to be a bigger asshole about it. Really.

Edit: While I'm thinking about it, I'll mention Aquapolis. Literally a huge portion of "content" in one of their patches. It has a CHANCE to appear while doing treasure maps, but is not guaranteed. You could literally do 10 maps and not get a portal to appear and if you make it inside, you have to literally make it through 7 choices of "right door or left door" to make it to the end and complete it. There are people that I know that have STILL not seen the final room and that shit has been out for MONTHS.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I'd be more worried about not having a legendary if I had come across content I could not complete without a legendary. I'm 863 atm, no legendary, 7/7N & 4/7H, tanked M+7 CoS this week... Still lots to learn and improve on, but it's that learning curve that's gating my progress and nothing to do with RNG legendaries. Haven't had a wipe yet and thought "Gee if only I'd had a legendary...". No, it's always more like "Doh! I should have zigged when I zagged but I can do that let's go again."

[dexx]

These "little slot machines" do not keep players coming back. RNG for legendaries

I'm not so sure. Warforging, Titanforging, and legendaries are a gamble which keeps some players redoing content like LFR in the hope that they get lucky.

[Zen-]

Goals, stuff to work towards, motivation. Take your pick.
You know, like WoD had with:
-Apexis crystals
-PvP honor / conquest points
-Legendary quest line
-Legendary weekly upgrades
-Valor for item upgrades.

Here's Legion's list of stuff to work towards that aren't useless rep items you will outgear by the time you hit exalted:
-

See the problem?

Man this post really hits home. Hate WoD all you might, but at least we had some clear goals of stuff to work on. I've grinded starlight rose at least 20 hours by now and I still don't have the stupid rank 3. A friend picks his 5th herb, gets it. I understand RNG, it's a way to lure in players to spend hours and hours achieving a goal that may not really happen. But man, it can't be literally everything (WQ, professions, legendary, titanforge rng).

[Lilija]

How can RnG be discouraging when it can also mean you get legendary on your first ever try?

RNG is discouraging when you don't get something on the first try and that would be most cases. RNG is discouraging because you cannot follow your progress since there is no progress - there is just pure luck. And not being able to follow progress is a basic motivation killer. That means, after some time of being screwed by RNG you stop carrying and stop working on certain thing you have initially desired assuming you won't get it anyway.

These are not just questions for you but for all those who complain. My personal opinion is that people are frustrated because the color of the item is orange.

I couldn't care less about the colour of the item. I care about what is written on the item and if boost my dps by 20% for just being there. People who cared about the colour of the item had problem with the previous system: "omg, it's legendary but everyone have it".

The bottom line is that:
Items giving significant POWER to your CHARACTER SHOULD NOT BE RNG.
Colour is irrelevant. Rarity is irrelevant.

Vanity items can be as rare as anyone wants. Prestige items can be as rare as anyone wants. But Power items in a game that is mostly about character progression and getting more powerfull have to be linear and in some way guaranteed for certain amount of work. The more work you put the more power you get. It's all about perception and while some might view it differently than others, perception of the game is what makes people play and enjoy it. And this system is perceived as unfair because it awards significant power on a pure luck basis.

[Glorious Leader]

People like progression. They like control. They like having agency. Rng legendaries fly in the face of this. The environment that hooks people into gambling is fundametally different from rng legendaries. Trying to replicate the effect inside wow is illconsidered.

[Kezotar]

People like progression. They like control. They like having agency. Rng legendaries fly in the face of this. The environment that hooks people into gambling is fundametally different from rng legendaries. Trying to replicate the effect inside wow is illconsidered.

This.
WoW is NOT Diablo. Diablo is a hack n slash where you simply just destroy everything, nothing in the way, no fails just tap buttons and be rewarded with more loot to hack stuff. RNG fits here.

However in WoW? Nope. I enjoyed Legion, currently feeling a huge decline. At 860 item level, currently the only upgrades I can have are in 4 weeks - AKA 1 new legendary.

Or... Super LUCKY RNG procs...

Item level.. Warforged, Titanforged, x titanforged, stats, socket? no socket. Actual slot that I need.

[Norome]

This, even Diablo3 has Kadala. Something to work up to instead of playing a lottery.

What? Kadala is nothing if not lottery. The only control you have is over what slot you get. You might spend thousands of blood shards and get nothing but blues and yellows, and a couple of legendaries that you don't want even though they're for your class most of the time.

If Kadala was in WoW, it would have to work the same way - you spend badges/whatever currency and you get a random item (of a chosen slot), with a small chance of it being a legendary. There's nothing interesting in farming a currency you already know exactly what you're gonna spend it for.

Also, the only time you aim for Kadala's items, is at the beginning of season when you don't have a character equipped in ancients yet. Which translates to approximately first couple of days of the season. The remaining 95% of the season she's used as a blatant blood shard dump with an extremely low chance of getting a useful item.

[Echo of Soul]

The Legion system is the worst of all worlds. It's not fun, it's not engaging, and it makes no goddamn sense at all.

According to Blizzard this is what makes loot exciting, they've stated this multiple times. For me personally it's the complete opposite of exciting, I want to be able to plan my gearing and target my rewards either by farming currencies to buy them or to run the same dungeon until I get the reward I want even if it takes two months. But I'm probably a minority.

[Sansnom]

I love Legion. Great expansion overall. But I think Blizzard needs to fix some of the end game RNG before people start quitting.

• Leveling professions with quests and doing dailies... great! Then you hit the RNG brickwall of discovering the 3rd star rank.

• Gearing up then you hit an RNG wall with getting a legendary.

• A lot of the hidden artifact skins are total RNG.

What do you guys think? Are you okay with the RNG (talking to unlucky people - of course if you're lucky you like it)? If not, what do you think Blizzard should do to fix it?

I think the RNG is fine. Maybe they could have some skin that are farmable. The legendary being RNG is also fine with me. That is how it was before.

The problem related to the legendary is, in my opinion, based a few thing.

1. People have become accustom to acquiring a legendary. This is due to the past two expansion where the legendary was the results of a long quest chain.

2. Blizzard made a mess with the drop rate. It is dropped too frequently, then it just causes dissatisfaction from those who are just unlucky with the roll.

3. Related to the drop frequency, it is considered to be "mandatory" for some groups, particularly those in the Mythic difficulty.

[Deleted]

I love Legion. Great expansion overall. But I think Blizzard needs to fix some of the end game RNG before people start quitting.

• Leveling professions with quests and doing dailies... great! Then you hit the RNG brickwall of discovering the 3rd star rank.

• Gearing up then you hit an RNG wall with getting a legendary.

• A lot of the hidden artifact skins are total RNG.


You're going through the entire initial leveling experience at a nice pace. Great progression rhythm in everything. All of a sudden you hit that point at end game where 1) can't get a legendary because its total RNG, 2) can't get that extra artifact skin because it's total RNG, 3) no profession progression until you get WQ spawns/discoveries.


While the profession stuff doesn't seem like a major deal. Not getting a legendary is pretty shit. Also the fact that some hidden artifact skins have huge grinds after unlocking it makes the initial RNG extremely frustrating. You could do 10 WQ/day, a ton of dungeons all the time, lots of PVP but none of it will go towards that grind because you weren't lucky enough to land that skin.


What do you guys think? Are you okay with the RNG (talking to unlucky people - of course if you're lucky you like it)? If not, what do you think Blizzard should do to fix it?

Too late, i quitted.

[Lilija]

A legendary is 2-3 item levels boost + a sometimes niche bonus. Some of the legendaries offer a good boost but not extraordinary (bis sub boots that I got allow me to play with strategem and not feel the energy starve on the rotation so much) but are they ground breaking? NO.

In case of some specs they are.

But if we are talking anegdotal evidence. I've got Prydaz. Given my spec stat weights it's worse dps wise than a 850ilvl epic neck I've got from a heroic dungeon. At the same time, legendary Head bonus makes my spec do something close to 10% more dps on single target.

Ofc I can't convince you so ok stick to your opinion I ll stick to mine lets not have an endless dialogue where you say white and I say black.

Just curious. Would have the same opinion if you got a legendary which would lower your performance? (yes, bad necks and rings can do that)

One last word about "unfairness". Yeah its pretty damn unfair when people gate others because they want "860" and the other guy is 859. Its also unfair when they judge dps by their performance on trash and not on single target. Yeah the game is unfair. RnG is fair to all. Simply because everyone gets a chance. Luck or no luck at least you are not gated by some weirdo out there.

People see as unfair everything that they can't influence and RNG is the most basic example of this. As for not being gated by some weirdo, haven't you heard about countless examples of people being benched because they lack a legendary? I think people doing that are pretty dumb because legendaries are not equal and in some cases an epic item will be better (my example) but it still happens. So the reality is that people are being gated for reasons they cannot influence. With ilvl you at least have certain guaranteed sources. For legendary you have none.

This system is bad because for each person that is excited about getting a good legendary you get 4 that feel miserable. It doesn't matter if they are right because there is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings. This system makes people feel bad and they won't stop feeling bad because someone says so. And there could have been better ways to implement it and remove most of the "unfairness" people experience.

- - - Updated - - -

People like progression. They like control. They like having agency. Rng legendaries fly in the face of this. The environment that hooks people into gambling is fundametally different from rng legendaries. Trying to replicate the effect inside wow is illconsidered.

Exactly. As I have said before, things like:
- prorgession
- control
- agency
are proven to be directly connected to motivation.

The short rush of excitement is nothing compared to those 3 above when it comes to influencing people's behaviour. Also, on the other end of excitement is tons and tons of frustration which is basic motivation killer. One may argue that this is irrational but this is actual science about how human brain works.

Give person a proper goal and constant progression and you will make them do the most pointless thing every day and be happy about it. Take that away from them and they will get frustrated or bored in the best case.

[thatguy181]

Well, the system is taken from Diablo 3. In Diablo 3, you also had a small chance of getting these. But you had a (working) form of "bad luck protection" - if you were playing for X hours and you didn't get one, one would drop from a random mob eventually.

I'm saying it worked there because it did - tried and tested by me.

In WoW, that form of protection either does not exist, does not work or is simply very ... tolerant (meaning you might get one after a number of months instead of days/weeks). I got 0 legendaries so far, but it doesn't bother me. Eventually, one will drop for everyone, I suppose...and then we'll all feel "lucky" for a moment.

Until you realize you got a crap legendary ;P

[Farabee]

The RNG gearing is OK, because Mythic raids have a guaranteed 880 item level without having to zerg content over and over. The itemization kind of sucks ass, but it's the first tier.

The RNG in everything else (legendaries, professions) is garbage. If I throw stormrays at Nomi for 10 days straight I should have more than burnt food to show for it. I should have a goddamn rank 3 Seed-Battered Fish Plate recipe. If I go and farm two-thousand Starlight Roses, I should have rank 3. If I do my emissary caches for a month straight, I should get a legendary for that month. Not have this system where people have been doing them for 2 months with fuck all to show for it, and others have 3-4.

I get that Blizzard wants us to play more now for the rewards, but at least give us a tangible goal instead of forcing us to grind for it with no indicator of whether I'll get what I'm after. It makes the game less fun, not more.

[rda]

RNG gearing would have been fine:

* if most of the game (including raids) was solo, or
* if most of the groups (including for raids) were forced, as in, composed automatically.

Since WoW isn't that, there are issues.

You get unlucky, bam, you are trash in the eyes of those who were luckier. And the differences snowball quickly.

[Lilija]

I get that Blizzard wants us to play more now for the rewards, but at least give us a tangible goal instead of forcing us to grind for it with no indicator of whether I'll get what I'm after. It makes the game less fun, not more.

This and 100 more times this.

People need concrete goals and being able to follow them to stay interested.

[asapeazy]

Haha just quit the game. I just did and I find myself a lot less stressed. I mean it's just WoW but I was getting stressed by a GAME. That's how i knew I had to go. Way too much RNG. I invested a lot of time in my rogue and they nerf outlaw (RNG spec to begin with, which i dumped all my AP in), make thunderfury ridiculous to farm (300+ VoTW runs, pre-hotfix), give me a garbage neck piece for my first leg drop (worst out of 8, again RNG). I will be back one day. But the amount of nonsense in this game that is RNG killed all the fun for me.

To be honest it's a great expansion, but I hate how random it is right now.

[ro9ue]

I wouldn't be against some solo scenario challenges a la Green Fire quest. As long as you can't outgear it. The mechanics should be tight, and your gear and stats will be fixed to a template so all variables are essentially equal. It would flat out be a skill check for a legendary.

I've had people say, "well the best people would have it immediately". I don't see how that's really a bad thing.


I have every pre-Legion legendary in the game. But do you know what the weapon is that I feel most proud of? Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers. I was the 2nd hunter on my server to get it and I was the 4th to get the leaf from my raid. There were parts of that questline that I would change, but the overall structure of obtaining that item when it was relevant was as follows:

Acquire a 50% drop item from a raid. Kill Onyxia, which most players were doing. Then pure skill check fights on how well you could kite as a hunter. There were many people who offered me lots of gold to log into their account to do it for them.

The part I didn't like, was spawn camping. The demon spawn timers were long as fuck (don't remember the exact time) and if there was a hunter there already, you would be courteous and wait your turn. Many hours sitting in Winterspring.

Obviously the scenario technology solves this problem.


The only major flaw with the Green Fire quest, in my opinion, was that people could eventually outgear it. If you did it at ~490 ilevel, it was pretty challenging. If Blizzard tunes the challenge exactly to a specific stat template so it's the same for all players at all times in their progression - it would be a great solution.


My optimal Legendary setup:

Each Legendary for your class requires a specific quest item drop from particular areas. For example, the Fragment of Betrayer's Prison for DHs. The quest item would be a guaranteed drop from the last boss in Mythic (non-keystone) Vault of the Wardens. This way no players below a particular skill level will even come close to it. If you can't do regular Mythic dungeons, you probably shouldn't be in the market for a Legendary anyway. But I would say at least half of the playerbase can get this done.

Once you get that, you take this to your class hall. You are given a simple lore quest (easy shit) that lets you experience the lore of the item.

If they want to artificially extend, I don't mind a flat "do 30 world quests" situation. A small grind a dedicated player can finish in a day or two (not the 50 weeks shit we've seen with Daggers/Staff/Shadowmourne). Maybe depending on the Legendary, it has to do another mythic or PVP or whatever.

After that, you have a very challenging (brawler's guild/green fire) style fight to complete, and at the end you receive your Legendary. This fight can't be outgeared. All your stats are fixed. Every player has access to everything the same as every other, it's only focus and skill that matters.


This way the Legendary feels deserved. Rhok'delar and Green Fire weren't perfect, but they are, imo, by far the best examples we've had in WoW of a satisfying reward structure.

[Glorious Leader]

According to Blizzard this is what makes loot exciting, they've stated this multiple times. For me personally it's the complete opposite of exciting, I want to be able to plan my gearing and target my rewards either by farming currencies to buy them or to run the same dungeon until I get the reward I want even if it takes two months. But I'm probably a minority.

They just have to be good rewards. Wod had stuff to farm but it was all dwarfed by raid gear making it virtually useless. Was it really that awful to farm wotlk dugeons to buy icc tier pieces?

[Woop Woop]

As Darsithis said, it's nice to have guaranteed goals in the game.

For example, farming badges for that one piece of gear that's a really good upgrade. That's a guaranteed goal that you still need to put effort into. Just an example.

I like things like that but there's not much of it in Legion. I don't mind RNG and I definitely don't mind something taking a while, but there needs to be less RNG. There's too much of it all over the place.

There should be a happy medium between RNG and guaranteed goals.

I agree with this.
Legion gearing would be so much better if there was guaranteed goals. The badge system from dungeons wasn't bad, IMO.