Why are we killing helya?

[Mehrunes]

Odyn is our ally, Helya is not - that's pretty much the beginning and end of it. I'm not claiming Odyn is a good character (as I already said above I'm not much of a fan) but he is on our side, granting us the Aegis of Aggramar and participating in the Legion campaign by aiding the Warrior Order Hall directly. Helya is purely antagonistic - her Kvaldir our enemies where Odyn's Valarjar are allied with us.

Other than Borean Tundra where they attacked a Horde outpost the Kvaldir are our enemies because Odyn sends us to kill them. Odyn aided us so well that he only gave Aegis to us and not Skovald because we weren't late. Despite Skovald ignoring the shit out of the trials and making a mockery out of them (including sending the spirits of the ancient kings required for one of the trials to Helheim but that didn't seem to phase Odyn at all). Then watched idly as Skovald tried to kill us for the Aegis and used it during the fight. Blizzard forcing us to choose him out of all people over Helya, or even pick sides at all is shit storytelling devoid of any depth or colors other than black and white. Because Blizzard writers are incapable of these.

[Donald Hellscream]

Because her being alive is actively hampering our efforts against the Legion since the curse she put on the Halls of Valor prevents Odyn and his Valarjar from leaving the Halls of Valor and thus prevents them from engaging the Legion directly.

[Aucald]

Other than Borean Tundra where they attacked a Horde outpost the Kvaldir are our enemies because Odyn sends us to kill them. Odyn aided us so well that he only gave Aegis to us and not Skovald because we weren't late. Despite Skovald ignoring the shit out of the trials and making a mockery out of them (including sending the spirits of the ancient kings required for one of the trials to Helheim but that didn't seem to phase Odyn at all). Then watched idly as Skovald tried to kill us for the Aegis and used it during the fight. Blizzard forcing us to choose him out of all people over Helya, or even pick sides at all is shit storytelling devoid of any depth or colors other than black and white. Because Blizzard writers are incapable of these.

The Kvaldir attacked the Horde and Alliance at the Borean Tundra, and they massacred the Tuskarr in both the Borean Tundra and at Icecrown on the islands north of the Argent Coliseum. The Kvaldir also attacked the Horde during the events of "The Shattering" while at sea, and have been said to be encountered all across the seas in various smaller encounters.

I don't think it was ever Odyn's intent to give the Aegis to Skovald - he mocks him when Skovald arrives at his Throne in the Halls of Valor, rubbing our victory in the Trials in his face. Had we failed Odyn would've been well within his rights not to hand over the Aegis due to Skovald's failure to observe decorum in the rights, but he didn't have to do that. I also didn't think Odyn considered Skovald a threat to him or to us, which is why he didn't step in to stop the conflict (and also because our defeat of Skovald would only further prove the Horde or Alliance's valor, which appears omni-important to Odyn and his Vrykul).

Blizzard forcing us to choose him out of all people over Helya, or even pick sides at all is shit storytelling devoid of any depth or colors other than black and white. Because Blizzard writers are incapable of these.

This is unnecessarily harsh for criticism, I think. Odyn is a Titan-appointed Keeper, after all; for all his considerable faults in the form of pride he is still on the side of Azeroth and its ultimate protection. Helya, which a direct creation of Odyn's misguided attempts to protect Azeroth, is very obviously out for her own power and directly antagonistic to both the Horde and Alliance (and seemingly any other living being). She is actively dangerous regardless of whatever she once might have been.

[Deleted]

Wait, the positions and to proceed of Arthas/Sylvanas and Odyn are so Different.

Odyn:

he send out his Valkyrs to get him the death and strenght Vyrkul Souls. His Souls will bound in a new titanforged body.

Nekromanty

The Soul will bound in the Death Body, this is very Different.

[Irian]

Obviously worse than the aforementioned Titan Watcher doing nothing about Legion servant ignoring the trials because he's still VALOROUS (somehow) and almost giving the Aegis to him. And Helya didn't side with Loken. He let her loose on Odyn, then we have no contact between the two whatsoever. And Helya's Kvaldir fight the Old God aligned Naga.

I strongly suspect that Skovald would have tried to fight and kill Odyn had we not been there. I strongly doubt Odyn would've just freely given the Titan artifact to a guy who brute forced his way through the trials of valor and then would have likely slaughtered everyone in the Halls of Valor, unless Odyn is bound by some kind of code like Helya. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

And yeah, Helya didn't really side with Loken, but she allowed herself (likely through a long-seated resentment) to be convinced to turn against him. And based on the little shadow priest tidbit we see at the end of HoV it's strongly implied that Loken had some direct involvement in the banishment of the Halls of Valor. Regardless though, there's no doubting she's done wrong; the imprisonment of the souls of countless Vrykul and her magic that keeps Odyn from defending Azeroth are enough of a reason to need to fight her even if she's not the original wrongdoer.

[Exeris]

Except for the Forsaken who decide they do want to be forsaken. So I guess your entire point just went under.

And wanting to be undead is a common thing in fantasy, cult of the damned is the most easy and obvious of answers.

After they are turned if my mind isn't messing with me, not much of a choice.

[steelballfc]

Seriously, whats the different? Helya was able to betray Odyn when she wanted to do it, so the seemed to stil have her free will. So there is no difference. One is killed, turned into an Undead (only that Val'kyr are powerful and holy Beings when they are pure, beings every Paladin would want to be) and then free to do whatever they want. I simply don't get it why it is soooooooo evil when Odyn does it and rather okay when Sylvanas does it?

is Sylvanas your ex wife or something ?

[Flamez2]

who cares why we kill stuff, they drop loot we kill it

would actually prefer if they just named bosses 1, 2, 3 etc way easiser to remember when they just a number in a raid.

[steelballfc]

She was a construct only build for the sole purpose of serving him.

And she was still free enough to betray him. So I don't see any difference other than Val'kyr are powerful, holy beings that help brining fallen Heroes into paradise for some grand army to protect Azeroth.

what do you want M-Ra !?

[glowpipe]

At the end of the day. She's a source of loot. thats all 98% of the players that kill her cares about.

[steelballfc]

While I'm an Alliance player, this is very very subjective. Most Forsaken ARE Lordaeron Citizens, and since they are concious, how is their right and claim to what used to be Lordaeron any smaller than that of the living remaining citizens of Lordaeron? Both sides have a claim to it, somehow. Humans in the alliance are mostly from the Kingdom of Stormwind, nor Lordaeron.

also the forsaken did win the land from original owner aka Arthas

[Deleted]

because she wants to drown us all, like rats

"what manner of creatures are you?"

[n7stormreaver]

How many people died to Kvaldir and how many to Valarjar? Odyn never attacked us or was our enemy.

[SunspotAnims]

What threat was Odyn fighting when he almost gave the Aegis to Skovald? The threat of Azeroth being corrupted by the Void? Because that's kinda the Legion's thing.

I can't think of any point where Odyn was actually about to give the Aegis to Skovald. Odyn created a set of trials for the most "heroic champion" to prove their worthiness for the Aegis and Skovald tried to abuse those trials to take it. It's precisely the reason the players were asked to get involved in the first place; Odyn wanted us to complete the trials first so Skovald wouldn't have any possible claim to the Aegis.

[Crashen]

After they are turned if my mind isn't messing with me, not much of a choice.

Thats the mistake people keep making. Forsaken arent "turned" like vampires. Healthy living people arent taken and twisted into decomposing cadavers. They are dead people, raised into undeath, and given the choice to continue to exist as a new entity, undead and reanimated, or RETURN to being dead. They don't get the choice to come back to life with flesh and blood, or servr as rotten corpses. They were dead, they are brought back from the dead in a new form, and can continue or return to true death.

[Stormdash]

I can't think of any point where Odyn was actually about to give the Aegis to Skovald. Odyn created a set of trials for the most "heroic champion" to prove their worthiness for the Aegis and Skovald tried to abuse those trials to take it. It's precisely the reason the players were asked to get involved in the first place; Odyn wanted us to complete the trials first so Skovald wouldn't have any possible claim to the Aegis.

Well, it's clear in context he would have given it to Skovald, had Skovald been first to complete trials, appear before him, and claim it -- but the whole reason we are there is because Odyn didn't want that outcome and wanted some other worthy to accomplish it.

[DaHomieG]

Because we already defeated Loken

[mrbeermeister]

Sylvanas wanted to kill Vereesa and turn her into an Undead. And focing someone into undead is still forcing someone into undead. Hell, seriously. I don't get this massive Odyn hate. I would get it from Sylvanas haters, yeah, but not from Sylvanas fans.

I believe you, I'm just guessing I missed something when I as playing, when does Sylvanas say she wanted to kill Vereesa? Is it maybe during the Hunter quests?

[Stormdash]

I believe you, I'm just guessing I missed something when I as playing, when does Sylvanas say she wanted to kill Vereesa? Is it maybe during the Hunter quests?

It's in the novel War Crimes, and he's actually taking the premise wildly out of context of the story. Vereesa and Sylvanas reconnect during the event of Garrosh's trial, and together hatch a scheme to assassinate him rather than letting the trial go on, which both see as a farce. They also reconnect emotionally, and Vereesa speaks of coming to live with Sylvanas in the Undercity. Sylvanas, being an undead and therefore of a pretty skewed moral perspective, realizes this would make a lot more sense if Vereesa were a Dark Ranger like she and (via internal monologue) voices the intent to eventually help her sister become this, through some gentle acting poison so it is not cruel like she had to endure. She never once communicates this intention to Vereesa (although anyone reading it would have to be willfully obtuse not to at least consider that Vereesa must have realized), nor does she ever actually act on it. The plan comes apart because Vereesa realizes she can't leave her children nor bring them to the Undercity. Further, Vereesa renounces the assassination plot and breaks contact with Sylvanas, leading the latter to some sad-angry feels.

[Qualia]

I believe you, I'm just guessing I missed something when I as playing, when does Sylvanas say she wanted to kill Vereesa? Is it maybe during the Hunter quests?

It's in "War Crimes" book. It's not that she wanted to do it out of hatred, she did it because of love (seriously, that's how twisted she is now compared to a living being). Basically, she invited Vereesa to come, join the Horde with her and the two sisters will rule the Forsaken together. She didn't tell Vereesa (intentionally), however, that she was planning to secretly kill Vereesa because the Forsaken would never accept a living person to be their ruler. For Sylvanas' credit, while she was pretty mad when Vereesa decided to reject the offer, she hasn't taken any action against Vereesa (yet, at least).

Edit: oops, already explained in the post above.