[RESTO] 7.1 Nerfs?

[Deleted]

it's almost shocking to me how hung up some people are on having high HPS and looking good on the healing meters. chances are if your raid actually judges their healers by their HPS then your raid is so casual that you don't need to worry about min-maxing anyway and should just play whatever you have the most fun with. the current logs show that all healers are extremely close in performance and so some minor nerfs won't break Shaman either.

[Kargos]

While I don't instantly dismiss your assertion, is there any math anywhere to back this up?

Read through this. Larynx provided a lot of the math on a spreadsheet of his, but it looks like he removed it.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...lation+torrent

In short, the thread shows that undulation will net about twice as much total healing if you're doing some variation of RT-HW-HW-RT-HS-HW (using undulation on HS of course for the extra crit). It's also okay to use HS instead of HW or whatever. This is because torrent only adds 40% to the direct heal portion of RT, and the crit of HS makes it super powerful. It shouldn't overheal as long as you're careful to pay attention to the bars and heal who needs it most, not just the tank because he's a tank.

The thread didn't talk much about UL and Torrent, but here's some simple napkin math to think through.
Chain heal does 1400% SP total with high tide (400,340,280,220,160 respectively on each jump)
Riptide does 250% direct heal (the only part torrent affects) with a 300% SP hot
Unleash Life does 275% SP on its own before buffing the next heal by 45%
In the time it takes for UL to cooldown, you can get six riptides AT BEST by proccing with echo of the elements a lot. More likely, you'll actually use 3-4. Also keep in mind that all of those RTs have a gcd cast time, so you're also spending those gcds on RT instead of something more powerful.

All of the following take place within 15 seconds.
I didn't fill out each to the same amount of time, but you can imagine that having more time leftover (as is the case for UL, which is the shortest cast) will mean you have more time to cast other spells. Also pretending we have no haste so that the cast times are easy to calculate.
UL and Chain heal (1gcd + 2.5s cast = 4s total cast time): 275+(1400*1.45)= 2305% SP
six torrent riptides (6 gcds = 9s total cast time): 6*(250*1.4) = 2100% SP (in a real fight, you won't likely be spamming RT this much just to make a point about torrent)
four torrent riptides (4gcds = 6s total cast time): 4*(250*1.4) = 1400% SP (this is more in line with what would actually happen within 15 seconds in a fight)

Here's the difference between talents, i.e. the extra healing that each talent gives beyond the baseline spells
UL and Chain heal: 630% SP
six torrent riptides: 600% SP
four torrent riptides: 400% SP

Even with the absolute luckiest echo procs, torrent doesn't give as much healing as UL and chainheal.

This all said... we all know the damage in a boss fight waxes and wanes; you're not actually spamming chain heal nonstop and you're not casting RT nonstop. This further benefits the use of UL because during those lulls in damage, you can get ready and cast UL. With torrent, you're at the mercy of the cooldown and if you get a lucky proc with echo of the elements.

Note that this is just theory, and if you're a player who can't deal with using UL on cooldown most of the time, then don't use UL. If you can't see the bright activation bar on HS/HW when you get undulation to know when you have the buff, don't use it. Torrent is the option where you don't have to think at all, and using it is better if you can't deal with the extra effort involved with the others.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...st/#metric=hps fuck you i got logs think i give a damn what you think about punctuation we aint talking bout grammar we talking about a class so stfu

You need grammar class. And a logic class. Just go back to school or something. Logs don't matter for healers. If you're already beating the other healers in your raid, a change in the first tier of talents won't change that. In fact, the difference between having a healing legendary like your Jonat versus having a non-healing legendary like the personal shield amulet makes a bigger difference in your hps than a choice in the tier 1 talents.

[Ahovv]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...st/#metric=hps fuck you i got logs think i give a damn what you think about punctuation we aint talking bout grammar we talking about a class so stfu

Yes, you have logs with the BiS legendary. Context is important.

I have a 500k hps Ursoc; seems you don't. Guess since hps is what matters to you, I'm a superior player.

[Floopa]

im pretty sure right now shamans are in no way 'average'

right now i'd say shaman are the best healers. the weakest healer is MW.

[Valkaneer]

Even with the absolute luckiest echo procs, torrent doesn't give as much healing as UL and chainheal.

What's up with the UL and chainheal combo? You have to hit I think all 5 targets for High Tide to be better than the others, so that is situational. Not saying that it's not right, but what is possible and what is a normal thing to see is something different.

- - - Updated - - -

im pretty sure right now shamans are in no way 'average'

right now i'd say shaman are the best healers. the weakest healer is MW.

I think it's generally agreed on that Holy Pali is tops right now. Not saying shamy is bad, but I think most people would say Holy Pali for tops.

[Kargos]

What's up with the UL and chainheal combo? You have to hit I think all 5 targets for High Tide to be better than the others, so that is situational. Not saying that it's not right, but what is possible and what is a normal thing to see is something different.

Well of course it's situational... No one should be going with the chain heal spec for the dragons fight; you should use a single target spec for a fight like that where everyone's always spread out -- crashing waves, echo, undulation, etc. But if you're in a fight that's stacked a lot like ursoc or cenarius, you should be using the chain heal spec, in which case you'll almost always get 4-5 targets and UL will always be better than torrent in this situation. This is exactly why I said in my first post on this thread, "Undulation is double the healing of torrent in ST fights and UL is a ton more healing for chain healing."

[grizz92]

Yes, you have logs with the BiS legendary. Context is important.

I have a 500k hps Ursoc; seems you don't. Guess since hps is what matters to you, I'm a superior player.

didnt say hps was everything but i heal with good healers and you picked on one fight and that legendary doesnt make you parse top in the world automatically

[Kargos]

didnt say hps was everything but i heal with good healers and you picked on one fight and that legendary doesnt make you parse top in the world automatically

What...? He brought up Ursoc, and you're saying the legendary Jonat ring doesn't help with that fight? Seriously? Being able to charge up your chain heal with a few HW/HS during the part where only the tanks are getting beat on... in preparation for the part where the raid all takes a bunch of damage... I literally can think of no fight better suited for using Jonat. You clearly just get by with lucky drops and high ilvl rather than thought or skill.

[mcbubble]

Yes, you have logs with the BiS legendary. Context is important.

I have a 500k hps Ursoc; seems you don't. Guess since hps is what matters to you, I'm a superior player.

You chain heal spammed with 3 innervates...lol

[Kargos]

You chain heal spammed with 3 innervates...lol

... That's literally the point he's making. He's saying by looking at only HPS like grizz92 is doing without thinking about context is stupid and meaningless.

[grizz92]

What...? He brought up Ursoc, and you're saying the legendary Jonat ring doesn't help with that fight? Seriously? Being able to charge up your chain heal with a few HW/HS during the part where only the tanks are getting beat on... in preparation for the part where the raid all takes a bunch of damage... I literally can think of no fight better suited for using Jonat. You clearly just get by with lucky drops and high ilvl rather than thought or skill.

i guess reading is hard for you note I said automatically and damn you must be salty

[Kargos]

i guess reading is hard for you note I said automatically and damn you must be salty

................................................................................lol.

[Deleted]

I think it's generally agreed on that Holy Pali is tops right now. Not saying shamy is bad, but I think most people would say Holy Pali for tops.

I'd say true that in the throughput-sector. But a Holy pala is pretty much nothing more then throughput. Compared to shamans they lack in the groupheal and cooldown-department. Actually both classes compliment each other pretty well.

[Valkaneer]

I'd say true that in the throughput-sector. But a Holy pala is pretty much nothing more then throughput. Compared to shamans they lack in the groupheal and cooldown-department. Actually both classes compliment each other pretty well.

Agreed, lots can be done between the two.

[Nehezbegar]

Typical Blizzard, fixing what is not broken . They should fuck off from resto shamans, we are in a decent spot now.

[Larynx]

Read through this. Larynx provided a lot of the math on a spreadsheet of his, but it looks like he removed it.

Was getting some creepers, so had to break the link. Didn't read your reply, but I'll just give my opinion on the talents. It's pretty simple: Torrent in all circumstances, except where you cast enough HW to make the Und proc meaningful. UL is worse in all circumstances, except where mana is prohibitive and you use a lot of CH like for Ursoc.

The break point for Und procs for Und vs Torrent is a good question. You always cast RT on CD in most circumstances, so that's a static benefit. At what point is the SP gain there (I believe it's 100 SP per 6s) better than what Und would provide?

Und is a 50% bonus every third HW or HS cast. An Und HW is going to be a 237.5 SP gain per, roughly, 6 seconds, since that's what we use for a HW RT cycle. The gain for a HS is going to be 361 per 6s, assuming HS is TW buffed.

So, that's 3 HWs in about 14 seconds before Torrent equals Undulation? If you use HS, that's 1 Und per roughly 21 seconds. Using rough numbers because this is all super approximate in practice.

The numbers are deceptive, keep in mind. 40-60% of your active time is going to be spent casting something other than CH, HW, or HS. So every minute, you have more or less 30 seconds to cast HW/HS for Undulation procs. You'll need to spend 9-15 seconds of that casting HW or HS for Und > Torrent. So 15-25% of your active time. Might be off on something since I haven't double checked.


Unleash Life is a bit harder to compare. If you want to look at it from the same PoV as Und and Torrent, with High Tide, Unleash Life is worth ~947 bonus SP every 15s, or 378.8 SP every 6s. With HS, 397 per 15s or 159 per 6s. With HW, 261.25 per 15s or 104.5 per 6s. This is only the bonus healing. Not considering the base heal of UL, the cast time of UL, or the mana expenditure of UL. For, imo, more useful comparisons that actually consider the opportunity cost of UL:

Chain Heal + Chain Heal = 1722 + 1722 = 3444 / 5 = 688.8 hps
Unleash + Chain Heal = 1722*1.45 + 325 = 2821.9 = 705.5 hps
110k vs 66k mana, so UL has massive HPM gains here with Chain Heal.

For normal AoE, you're going to mix RTs with CHs for HPM. Using 2500 haste since that's what I actually have and the numbers are much easier and more realistic:

(1.4s gcd, 2.3s CH)

Riptide + Chain Heal * 2 as baseline: 550 + 1722*2 = 4094 / 6 = 682 HPS
Torrent + Chain Heal * 2 = 650 + 1722*2 = 4194 / 6 = 699 HPS

RT+UL+CH = 550 + 1722*1.45 + 325 = 3371.9 / 5.1 = 661 hps
RT+UL+CH+CH = 550 + 1722*1.45 + 325 + 1722 = 5094 / 7.4 = 688 hps

So, for pure HPS UL is not a clear winner over Torrent. Keep in mind UL has a 15s CD. UL has benefits for bursts of predictable AoE, your first CH is just 45% stronger, no HPS strings attached. UL is also clearly much more HPM for AoE.

For single target we're not likely going to be seeing much HS usage outside Mythic+, where you use Und anyways.

Torrent RT HW HW= 650 + 475 + 475
Cast Time: 1.5+1.75+2.5=5.75
Total: 1600/5.75 = 278 hps

RT UL HW HW = 550 + 689 + 475 + 475
Cast Time: 1.5+1.5+1.75+2.5=7.25
Total: 2189/7.25 = 302 hps

But if we were to look at a ~15s cycle we'd get something like:

RT UL HW HW + RT HW HW + RT HW UL HW = 2189 + 1500 + 2189 = 5878
Cast Time: 7.25 + 5.75 + 7.25 = 20.25
Total: 5878 / 20.25 = 290 hps

With more haste the gap widens in favor of UL. Realistically you won't spend 20.25 seconds casting straight HWs. Realistically, you'd do something like cast a RT UL HW, cast something else, move a bit, get another RT HW, do other stuff, UL again, etc. It doesn't actually change things around too much for UL vs Torrent. It definitely diminishes the value of Undulation though. I also realized I didn't compare Und to anything here, and Und also doesn't work with zero haste, and don't feel like updating all the cast times to be reduced by haste. Doesn't take a genius to figure that Und > UL/Torrent for these comparisons, though.

Really I might be wrong and UL more useful than I thought. Might be worth more consideration than I gave it. I might have also made a terrible mistake with the numbers since I'm pretty tired atm.

[Kargos]

Was getting some creepers, so had to break the link. Didn't read your reply, but I'll just give my opinion on the talents. It's pretty simple: Torrent in all circumstances, except where you cast enough HW to make the Und proc meaningful. UL is worse in all circumstances, except where mana is prohibitive and you use a lot of CH like for Ursoc.

The break point for Und procs for Und vs Torrent is a good question. You always cast RT on CD in most circumstances, so that's a static benefit. At what point is the SP gain there (I believe it's 100 SP per 6s) better than what Und would provide?

Und is a 50% bonus every third HW or HS cast. An Und HW is going to be a 237.5 SP gain per, roughly, 6 seconds, since that's what we use for a HW RT cycle. The gain for a HS is going to be 361 per 6s, assuming HS is TW buffed.

So, that's 3 HWs in about 14 seconds before Torrent equals Undulation? If you use HS, that's 1 Und per roughly 21 seconds. Using rough numbers because this is all super approximate in practice.

The numbers are deceptive, keep in mind. 40-60% of your active time is going to be spent casting something other than CH, HW, or HS. So every minute, you have more or less 30 seconds to cast HW/HS for Undulation procs. You'll need to spend 9-15 seconds of that casting HW or HS for Und > Torrent. So 15-25% of your active time. Might be off on something since I haven't double checked.

I agree with your math here. The last two paragraphs were worded a bit confusingly, but after reading them a few times, found agreeable as well. I know you didn't read what I wrote before, but you're pretty much echoing what I stated.

Undulation is better if you're doing a lot of HS/HW single target healing; when I spec for ST healing, HS/HW is definitely closer to 60% than 40% of what I cast. Also, there's pretty much never a time when I use the undulation buff on HW (it's so easy to use it on HS when they both start glowing). Unleash Life is best when you're using a lot of chain heal, like on Ursoc as you said but also on Elerethe and Cenarius and Xavius (all to varying degrees). With Elerethe, it's easy to hit it while running out of the spider blast to prep for a strong chain heal after she lands. Torrent is best for all else or if you can't deal with the cd of UL or the activation border of undulation.

I always forgot to mention earlier though that if you're trying to be a hybrid of ST and CH healing, then torrent would also be better because you're not focusing on one or the other talent. That said, I'd still personally prefer UL for hybrid situations because instead of spreading out that healing with torrents (pads the meters but doesn't necessarily save lives), UL can be a bit more focused on boosting the tank who is about to die or whatever, even if it does result in less overall throughput.

[Larynx]

I agree with your math here. The last two paragraphs were worded a bit confusingly, but after reading them a few times, found agreeable as well. I know you didn't read what I wrote before, but you're pretty much echoing what I stated.

Undulation is better if you're doing a lot of HS/HW single target healing; when I spec for ST healing, HS/HW is definitely closer to 60% than 40% of what I cast. Also, there's pretty much never a time when I use the undulation buff on HW (it's so easy to use it on HS when they both start glowing). Unleash Life is best when you're using a lot of chain heal, like on Ursoc as you said but also on Elerethe and Cenarius and Xavius (all to varying degrees). With Elerethe, it's easy to hit it while running out of the spider blast to prep for a strong chain heal after she lands. Torrent is best for all else or if you can't deal with the cd of UL or the activation border of undulation.

I always forgot to mention earlier though that if you're trying to be a hybrid of ST and CH healing, then torrent would also be better because you're not focusing on one or the other talent. That said, I'd still personally prefer UL for hybrid situations because instead of spreading out that healing with torrents (pads the meters but doesn't necessarily save lives), UL can be a bit more focused on boosting the tank who is about to die or whatever, even if it does result in less overall throughput.

By the way, I added a lot to my post. Sorry if it's worded awfully, I probably should have explained the logic a bit better. It's 7am and I haven't slept. Had to go over a few of the numbers several times because I kept adding the wrong values in and the answer was obviously wrong, lol. The value of UL seems a bit too high, but I'm not sure what's incorrect about the math or logic. It might just be that good?

[Deleted]

Wow 3 pages about a fail OP. You might want to check patch notes for the other healing specs. Hint: everyone has certain talents nerfed (and most nothing buffed in return). These aren't changes in regards to healer balance in general but to even out talent rows (nerfing things that blizzard seems to perceive as the standard build; holy priest holy word reduction, holy pala sw duration, etc.).

And lol at people calling shaman "average" it's still the best healing spec and you want to have 2 in your roster for upcoming raids.

[Kargos]

By the way, I added a lot to my post. Sorry if it's worded awfully, I probably should have explained the logic a bit better. It's 7am and I haven't slept. Had to go over a few of the numbers several times because I kept adding the wrong values in and the answer was obviously wrong, lol. The value of UL seems a bit too high, but I'm not sure what's incorrect about the math or logic. It might just be that good?

No worries. I was groggily reading and posting while eating my cereal before work. From what I can tell from a cursory glance, your math seems correct and in line with what I've thought about and seen with the three talents.

In terms of logic, a few things are that as a player, I would never use UL on HW for single target; it should always be used on HS (for single target, of course CH would be better when possible) because of the huge crit associated with it (I'm at like 85% crit chance with HS currently). And of course there's the complication of UL's value going up due to movement in a fight because of its instant cast nature (e.g. I tend to use UL in preparation for something while moving to a new location like Ursoc's cacophany or Elerethe's spider circle landing).

So UL is actually good (in the right circumstance). For most players, however, there's this memory of how it was pre-legion where it was a awful baseline spell that was only used for its speed boost or how it was in beta where it was 30% instead of 45% increase to the next heal. After that buff though, it's actually pretty decent in the right situation.