Xavius difficulty complaints is baffling

[Irefusetodie]

How long did it take for you to kill them on mythic?

And how long did it take you? I don't get this pointless bullshit argument. If you haven't killed it yourself, how can you refute what top guilds are saying? When the few guilds that have killed it say "This fight was undertuned" on top of Blizzard essentially stating that, I'm going to believe them.

That doesn't tell anything. Ya it means for THAT GUILD it was easier. But what the top guilds find difficult does not represent the rest of the player base. Some guilds find Normal and Heroic raiding to be hard, others find those modes to be as easy as LFR. Difficulty is not objective and if it was everyone would have cleared mythic by now.

What the actual fuck is this reasoning? Difficulty is objective. It quite literally is. Fights require certain DPS/HPS requirements on top of proper handling of mechanics. Just because there's gaps in skill between players doesn't mean that Mythic isn't OBJECTIVELY harder than heroic. Likewise, certain fights are OBJECTIVELY more difficult than others. M-Ursoc is a joke if your raid can meet the DPS requirements. It's essentially got 2 mechanics and very slight movement. It's close to patchwerk. Meanwhile, M-Il'gynoth is something completely different. M-Il'gynoth is objectively harder than M-Ursoc and, according to basically everyone that has done M-Xavius as well as Blizzard themselves, M-Xavius is too easy.

Oh and just so we're clear on the whole "difficulty is not objective" bullshit. A guild that struggles with normal would find heroic and mythic objectively harder than normal.

[Jtbrig7390]

--snip--

Done explained how your wrong not going to repeat it twice.

[cFortyfive]

I don't get this pointless bullshit argument.

It's certainly not worth trying to discuss encounter difficulty with someone who didn't play a single hard encounter while it was current. The encounter doesn't have any difficult elements and every guild who played it knows it.

[Egregious]

Lol @ everyone in this thread who thinks it's just a bunch of complainers. The boss is empirically easier than Cenarius and Il'gynoth... which, if you actually care about raiding, is extremely disappointing.

L2Think. I'll be coming out with a YouTube series on how to do it just in case thinking hurts your feelings.

[cFortyfive]

Lol @ everyone in this thread who thinks it's just a bunch of complainers.

Agree and that's not even the worst problem but the margin by how much it's easier. It wasn't just easier it was a joke. 10-20 pulls for guilds at the current rankings on an endboss are not something that just happens on a decently tuned encounter.

[Irefusetodie]

Done explained how your wrong not going to repeat it twice.

You didn't explain anything nor can you refute anything I said. If you were going to say nothing of value then you might as well have said nothing at all.

Let me explain it further for you. If a guild struggles with DPS/HPS requirements and struggles to properly handle mechanics, then they'll struggle even more when those DPS/HPS requirements are increased and the mechanics become more deadly. This is further compounded when Mythic adds more encounter mechanics on top of even further increased DPS/HPS requirements.

The fact of the matter is that encounters can be objectively more difficult than others.

[sarym13]

And? World first race has always been about watching the best conquer the most difficult content. Least for those who are not participating in the race. And when it gets downed the day it is released.. its a bit of a let down.

Welcome to entertainment? We enjoy watching/getting updates on stuff we normally do not do. And when those who do, do it finish it in a extremely fast time from compared to previous races is rather odd. And leads to discussion.

[sdracklryeg]

What I find baffling is that there is actually some blizzdrones with their head ass so far up their asses that they can accept that Xavius was a pathetically easy undertuned fight because that would be an admission that Blizzard has made a mistake

Doesn't matter that Watcher himself even said It was undertuned, doesn't matter that pretty much every guild in the world killed Xavius the night they killed Cenarius - Blizzards honour must still be defended in the face of legitimate cristicism

For your consideration: When you look at wowprog kill stats during progression what usually separates a hard boss from an easy boss is not the raw number of kills, It the % of people that have killed the prior boss but haven't killed that boss. For example, during Blackrock Foundry progression It was a fairly stable statistic that only 50% of the guilds that had killed Iron Maidens had killed Blast Furnace, and only 40-50% of guilds that had killed Blast Furnace had killed Blackhand. These ratios tell us that both Blast Furnace and Blackhand were hard fights (they were). These stats obviously smooth out over time as more people finish but as all the 'average' Mythic raiding guilds are still progressing, these proportions hold true

Now let's look at Mythic Emerald Nightmare

Ursoc: 1422 kills
Dragons of Nightmare: 894 kills (62.9% of Ursoc kills) - a good solid mid-tier difficulty fight
Il'gynoth: 400 kills - (44.7% of Dragons kills) - a hard fight
Cenarius: 170 kills (42.5% of Il'gynoth kills) - a hard fight
Xavius: 158 kills (92.3% of Cenarius kills) - a joke

[Dangg]

I mean, so far I think only 150~ guilds have killed him. Yet you have threads popping up on all kinds of gaming forums and mmo sites about how Mythic Xavius was a joke, with hundreds and hundreds of replies from people calling him a joke. And this happened right when he was killed. Even when only 4-5 guilds in the world had killed him, you had thousands of people complain about him being easy.

I just find that really bizarre. You have people who haven't even got to him, yet they are complaining about how he is easy and Blizzard is a joke and they don't know how to design raids etc

I guess the point of the thread is that this whole thing was really overblown, and it really highlights the negativity that exists in these communities.

It isn't bizzare at all and makes perfect sense. From the time spent you can gauge his difficulty compared to the previous bosses which is significantly less. Kinda doesn't make sense for the final boss no?

The reason only 150 guilds killed him is because you need to kill Cenarius first.

[Deavane]

I mean, so far I think only 150~ guilds have killed him. Yet you have threads popping up on all kinds of gaming forums and mmo sites about how Mythic Xavius was a joke, with hundreds and hundreds of replies from people calling him a joke. And this happened right when he was killed. Even when only 4-5 guilds in the world had killed him, you had thousands of people complain about him being easy.

I just find that really bizarre. You have people who haven't even got to him, yet they are complaining about how he is easy and Blizzard is a joke and they don't know how to design raids etc

I guess the point of the thread is that this whole thing was really overblown, and it really highlights the negativity that exists in these communities.

So here's the thing. Xavius is a joke. Mechanically, very little changes between mythic and heroic. Tuning wise, there's very little in the fight that could kill any raid member (outside of bad play). The reason so few guilds have killed him is simple. Cenarius. Cenarius is a brick wall that guilds have to climb over. If you can kill Cenarius, you can kill Xavius. Likely in the same night lol.

There's a reason that the Cenarius/Xavius kill ratio is so close. If Xavius was actually a difficult fight, we'd likely see less than a 100 guilds having killed him.

[Dangg]

... Um, yeah, that THOSE guilds could beat the content and it was easy by their standards?

It might not be easy in an absolute sense for the average raider, but it is significantly easier than previous bosses in the raid needing like 5-10 times less pulls.

From 11 years of experience raiding experience one can tell that try rations usually stay similar among all kind of guilds.

Or are you arguing that lesser guild will suddenly need 10 times more pulls for Xavius than for Cenarius? When did a shift like that ever happen?

[Zen-]

If at all from what I've heard, mythic Xavius is undertuned compared to other mythic end bosses. Some guilds didn't even have 30 pulls in there. That is literally nothing in the mythic world.

[Deavane]

How long did it take for you to kill them on mythic?

That doesn't tell anything. Ya it means for THAT GUILD it was easier. But what the top guilds find difficult does not represent the rest of the player base. Some guilds find Normal and Heroic raiding to be hard, others find those modes to be as easy as LFR. Difficulty is not objective and if it was everyone would have cleared mythic by now.

So many think because there favorite top guild did something they can or that since they did do it they did it too.

Its as bad as a fan of football thinking they are as good as there favorite team.

Don't know why you're getting upset about that guys post. What he's saying is accurate. If you look at progression guilds, guilds doing mythic currently, the vast majority of them will take upwards of 100-150 wipes on Cenarius, and then kill Xavius in under 20. The fight is just very easy.

Considering we're talking about Mythic in this thread, I'm not sure why your discussing other guilds not participating in the difficulty.

- - - Updated - - -

If at all from what I've heard, mythic Xavius is undertuned compared to other mythic end bosses. Some guilds didn't even have 30 pulls in there. That is literally nothing in the mythic world.

This entire raid had low pull counts for all of the fights. Cenarius breaching 100 for a good majority of the guilds was reasonable. Ilgy'noth is reasonably difficult as well, just in a different way.

[dyzz]

Last bosses are always expected to be harder, but there have been a few notable exceptions to that rule in the past.

Chromaggus wrecked guilds before they figured out the sand mechanics
Ouro was deemed basically impossible
Four Horseman took far longer to kill than Kel'thuzad back in Naxx 1.0
M'uru was deemed harder than Kil'jaedan by most guilds
Normal Yogg was much harder than normal Mimiron, yes, but Firefighter was harder for many guilds than 1 light due to the impossible amount of healing and dps needed at the time despite the fact Yogg clearly needed more coordination.
While on the subject of Ulduar, Algalon's difficulty, while admittedly high, was greatly exacerbated by the ridiculous 1 hour lockout. Yogg was the harder boss honestly, but Algalon took longer just due to the sheer massively limited attempts
Cho'gall and Al'Akir Heroic were harder than Sinestra for many guilds
Spine was MILES away harder than Madness. That one wasn't even close.
Lei Shen ATE Ra'den, admittedly because the encounter didn't exactly work as designed.

Cenarius is the hardest boss in the instance. Is that optimal? No, but it isn't exactly the first time it has happened either.

KJ was only difficult the first week because of the Armageddon bug. Our World 5th kill would have been 2nd or 3rd but we wiped I dont know how many times at sub 10% because Armageddon wouldn't go off when it was supposed to, and would just wipe us after the dragons were already popped.

M'uru was extreme the first week (besides us, I think only 3 guilds killed it, Curse/Exodus/Premonition) because he had like spell push back AOE every second or so. After that, maybe it felt like a cakewalk the second week to us because they removed the Spell Push Back aoe he had.

[Aggrophobic]

It took Exorsus 2 1/2 hours to kill him according to Wowprogress.



That alone tells you everything you really need to know.

That they are good?

Il'gynoth is not easy though. Been baning my head against him/her the last week.
Annoying boss!

[Dangg]

Last bosses are always expected to be harder, but there have been a few notable exceptions to that rule in the past.

Chromaggus wrecked guilds before they figured out the sand mechanics
Ouro was deemed basically impossible
Four Horseman took far longer to kill than Kel'thuzad back in Naxx 1.0
M'uru was deemed harder than Kil'jaedan by most guilds
Normal Yogg was much harder than normal Mimiron, yes, but Firefighter was harder for many guilds than 1 light due to the impossible amount of healing and dps needed at the time despite the fact Yogg clearly needed more coordination.
While on the subject of Ulduar, Algalon's difficulty, while admittedly high, was greatly exacerbated by the ridiculous 1 hour lockout. Yogg was the harder boss honestly, but Algalon took longer just due to the sheer massively limited attempts
Cho'gall and Al'Akir Heroic were harder than Sinestra for many guilds

The difficulty gap in those examples isn't even close to the current case.

[Torched]

Cenarius is the hard boss, he is the reason that more guilds have not killed Xavius, it took us 147 wipes to kill Cenarius, it took us 23 to kill Xavius, he is a joke of an endboss.

[Queen of Hamsters]

It might not be easy in an absolute sense for the average raider, but it is significantly easier than previous bosses in the raid needing like 5-10 times less pulls.

From 11 years of experience raiding experience one can tell that try rations usually stay similar among all kind of guilds.

Or are you arguing that lesser guild will suddenly need 10 times more pulls for Xavius than for Cenarius? When did a shift like that ever happen?

If it's all about numbers of pulls, how come guilds hit brick walls on certain bosses? I'm not arguing pulls though, only that people probably shouldn't look at the top 1% of the 1% and decide that content is "too easy!!" based on how they perform.

Ion said that Xavius was undertuned, still won't stop plenty of guilds being more than challenged by the fight and many not getting the kill during this tier. Let's see what the top 1% of the 1% are faced with in Gul'dan, he's what I'd consider the "end boss" of the tier.

[Hctaz]

It doesn't matter if I personally haven't killed him. I can still say he's easy compared to other end raid bosses in the past. I've been keeping track of raid races since ICC and I can say that I don't recall a raid finished this early. I wasn't around for WoD though so I can't comment. I just know from the experiences of guilds who have killed him that I have friends in, I can say that he's too easy. Even Blizzard said they tuned him too easy.

[Squirl]

Xavius doesn't have that many kills because you still have to get through Il'gynoth and Cenarius, which are moderately difficult. If you could kill them in any order, you'd hit up Xavius first or second. He's actually that easy.

It's not just that previous bosses were harder; that has happened plenty of times before. It's that he's basically the same as Heroic in both mechanics and difficulty. Xavius has one new mechanic on Mythic: you soak 5 beams at 4 points in the fight to get Dream rather than a random half the raid getting Dream then the other half. That's it. That's actually the only change, and it arguably makes him easier. Xavius is a really shitty boss.

Just because people who haven't killed and maybe will never kill Xavius are complaining about him, it doesn't mean they're wrong.