Sooo mastery > haste/crit ?

[Hendo741]

Or just spread your dots with the LEG ring... Thats what I do!

[Deleted]

To answer your question: Mastery becomes better than haste and crit, once you reach the breaking point of 12.000 haste as simulated on how to ptiest.

Concerning your performance, you are way too low. I have similar stats and I managed to pull 436.000 dps on Xavius. I even messed up the first S2M and only spent like 1 min in it. I would like to post a log, but I can't post any links yet.

small correction:

maintain 20%+ crit, 11500-12000 haste, aslong as you maintain these 2 you should stack mastery - 20%+ crit to get use from AS, 11500-12000 haste lets you consistently hit 3 torrents in STM, after that mastery gets best benefit as you gain direct dmg increase in voidform

[dmfg]

You say that, but I have 20% crit and 38% haste and I still do not consistently hit third VTor in raids. I'm averaging 110-120 stacks. The main reason is I don't always have VTor and/or disperse available as I enter that last VF. I strongly suspect that unless you are actually are hitting that third VTor in actual fights, you should keep stacking haste and crit.

[Djriff]

If you don't have Vtor available for your final Voidform, then you planned poorly. You have to plan your Final Voidform at least 45s in advance.

[Ocedic]

Hmm, so I'm at 27% crit, 32% haste, 30% mastery, basically I should start replacing some crit/mastery gear with haste/mastery? I previously had high ilvl crit/mastery and was waiting for haste/crit drops (which are not plentiful in EN.) If Haste/Mastery is acceptable then that makes life a lot easier.

[Djriff]

You can, but just a word of caution, if you can't hit 3rd Vtor with 12k haste, then grab more haste. 11500 haste is the technical breakpoint at which the simulation can hit 3rd vtor consecutively. More haste gives you more room for error and if you have high latency, it's probably the best choice to make. Also crit is still valuable, mastery just moves ahead of it at that point as you're assuming the bulk of your damage will come from StM. Your non StM damage will suffer as a result.

[justflayin]

Simmed breakpoints for this iteration of shadow should be taken and a guide and not concrete. To really get the dmg out of S2M you need to get to that 3rd VoiT. Some can do it before the breakpoint others may need more.

[dmfg]

If you don't have Vtor available for your final Voidform, then you planned poorly. You have to plan your Final Voidform at least 45s in advance.

Maybe, but that's not the point is it? If you're not consistently reaching that third VTor (for any reason), that 12k haste cap probably doesn't apply, and probably shouldn't be recommended "target".

[Ocedic]

Maybe, but that's not the point is it? If you're not consistently reaching that third VTor (for any reason), that 12k haste cap probably doesn't apply, and probably shouldn't be recommended "target".

Well, stat weights assume optimal play. It's like saying mastery is useless if you don't cast any dots and thus gains no benefits.

[tiptopmemer]

Seeing as a few people touched on it in this thread, i'll ask.

Anyone have some actual statistics to back up mark of the claw vs hidden satyr.

I rate mark higher for myself because my haste and crit are dreadfully low (29% and 19% respectively) and i need whatever i can get, so a few extra % of chance to proc a shadowy app or make my mb/mf hit sooner is valuable.
Also using Void Torrent during haste benefits of Mark of Claw/Chrono Shard/PI is definitely not to be ignored (Void Torrent snapshots at the time of cast)

[dmfg]

Well, stat weights assume optimal play. It's like saying mastery is useless if you don't cast any dots and thus gains no benefits.

Yeah but nobody is gonna not cast dots as SP. Whereas I feel it is very easy for someone (me included) to follow the guide and still reach 3rd VTor less than 20% of the time. Whether that's because of blowing dispersion to survive webbed feeding time, or just plain small mistakes.

Why not just link the haste recommendation to what's actually causing the shift, rather than the simcraft number? As an extra bonus, it will encourage people to actually analyse their STM times. Right now I bet there are people who will actually get lower DPS as a result of switching to mastery when they weren't hitting VTor 3 to begin with.

Yes, stat weights also need thought, but you can make it easier for people too.

[Deleted]

Just raided with a spriest who topped charts in every encounter, on HC xavius he did 350k dps meanwhile I did 250k. I am by no means a good spriest, I can get to 90-100 stacks, my haste is 35% and crit is 20%, I probably should be pulling better numbers but this guy has 80% mastery and he did a much better dps with much less effort (no stm).

Thoughts?

Maybe he got to 100% corruption and used Insanity in this phase. 150% dmg boost + a strong cooldown = insane dps.

[Djriff]

Maybe, but that's not the point is it? If you're not consistently reaching that third VTor (for any reason), that 12k haste cap probably doesn't apply, and probably shouldn't be recommended "target".

That's entirely the point. Casting Void Torrent pauses any loss of insanity, allows you to build stacks of insanity without incurring any additional drain. Means you can carry the -10 insanity a second an additional 4 seconds while gaining stacks of haste. Without Vtor at the start of Voidform you lose this benefit and mess up the timing of a 3rd Torrent.

Also using Void Torrent during haste benefits of Mark of Claw/Chrono Shard/PI is definitely not to be ignored

Relying on the those procs can lead to a shorter StM Voidform, that's why Chrono Shard isn't recommended. Mark of the Claw may give you some slight more haste (i'll check proc rates and actual stats of it later, but Mark of the Satyr gives you more DPS, which is outweighing the benefit of haste+crit.

(Void Torrent snapshots at the time of cast)

No it does not, it's dynamic.

[NickCageFanatic]

Just raided with a spriest who topped charts in every encounter, on HC xavius he did 350k dps meanwhile I did 250k.

Thoughts?

The other priest is doing well under Surrender to Madness, and they are multi-dotting via the Nightmare Tentacles.
The tentacles in the last part of the right don't do a whole lot of damage, they are there mainly to psych out first timers and give the impression that the phase is harder than it really is (just go ham single target on the boss). So dpsing the tentacles really is nothing more than padding the meters.

[dmfg]

That's entirely the point. Casting Void Torrent pauses any loss of insanity, allows you to build stacks of insanity without incurring any additional drain. Means you can carry the -10 insanity a second an additional 4 seconds while gaining stacks of haste. Without Vtor at the start of Voidform you lose this benefit and mess up the timing of a 3rd Torrent.

The point is that you could be doing exactly as you say (casting that VTor after first VB), with 12k haste, and still consistently not make the third VTor because of having to disperse defensively/high ping/literally any reason whatsoever. And if that's the case, I don't think you should stop stacking haste after 12k, because you haven't hit the trigger that devalues haste.

Why are we not on the same wavelength? I feel like we should be on the same wavelength. Maybe your play is at the level where simply having 12k haste is enough to always reach 3rd VTor, but I would hope you can at least see that for many people that will not be the case, and it's so easy to advise people "stop stacking haste after you can reach 3rd VTor" instead of the 12k which is already getting mindlessly posted around.

EDIT: This would make no difference to anyone who was already reaching VTor 3, because for them 12k haste = VTor3.

[Djriff]

I've said it before (probably a different thread) but if you can't hit 3rd vtor with 12k haste, then you stack more. The only reason you shouldn't be able to hit that 3rd Vtor is because of latency, dispersion certainly helps but you have 54 seconds from your first Vtor to use it, which in a fight is a fairly long time. 12k is the advised breakpoint, it's not a cap. there's a difference.

[Kilee25]

Same thing happened in WoD with the class trinket. The simc observed haste requirement doesn't work like the old dot breakpoints where you automatically get something at X haste. Instead it represents a potential in perfect conditions. Some people will be able to do it easily and not understand why everyone else can't. Some people won't be able to no matter what they do. And a whole bunch of people in the middle who might be doing something wrong... It will be difficult to distinguish the last two groups, and ultimately the answer will be just get however much haste you need to consistently pull the rotation off. Welcome to the age of Internet quality inequality...

[Ocedic]

The other priest is doing well under Surrender to Madness, and they are multi-dotting via the Nightmare Tentacles.
The tentacles in the last part of the right don't do a whole lot of damage, they are there mainly to psych out first timers and give the impression that the phase is harder than it really is (just go ham single target on the boss). So dpsing the tentacles really is nothing more than padding the meters.

Well multidotting will give you more AS procs. They obviously don't need to be DPS'd down, but more AS procs will extend your S2M.

Same reason an Aff lock would mutidot, to proc more soul shards.

Anyway, all damage meters let you sort by damage done on a target, and I have a feeling multidotting isn't making a significant difference in a 100k dps difference. Chances are the higher priest is also doing more total damage to Xavius himself.

[Djriff]

Same thing happened in WoD with the class trinket. The simc observed haste requirement doesn't work like the old dot breakpoints where you automatically get something at X haste. Instead it represents a potential in perfect conditions. Some people will be able to do it easily and not understand why everyone else can't. Some people won't be able to no matter what they do. And a whole bunch of people in the middle who might be doing something wrong... It will be difficult to distinguish the last two groups, and ultimately the answer will be just get however much haste you need to consistently pull the rotation off. Welcome to the age of Internet quality inequality...

I mean it's pretty straight forward if you look at it. 11,500 haste is the soonest you can hit 3rd Vtor which 0 lag and meh RNG. 11,700-12,000 haste is the recommended breakpoint as more haste gives you more leeway. For someone who has a pretty terrible internet connect, like yourself I would recommend somewhere around 13,000 haste, maybe a bit more just to be on the safe side. Sure you won't do as much DPS as someone with a 10ms connection, but even if the breakpoint didn't exist you'd still be behind them in the first place.