[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Irefusetodie]

Yes, I know, That is why im asking why dont we use Infernal writ trinket instead, since crit is better valued.

That's just not how it works. Empowerments increase the damage of Lunar Strike and Solar Wrath. Our mastery directly increases the damage component of those empowerments. Crit does nothing but increase our chance of getting a critical strike. It's dynamically updated while mastery isn't because mastery procs would be worthless if they didn't snapshot with that buff. It's probably unintended for Balance Druids to be able to snapshot mastery outside of the proc and it'll most likely be fixed soon enough.

[MV Kaa]

That's just not how it works. Empowerments increase the damage of Lunar Strike and Solar Wrath. Our mastery directly increases the damage component of those empowerments. Crit does nothing but increase our chance of getting a critical strike. It's dynamically updated while mastery isn't because mastery procs would be worthless if they didn't snapshot with that buff. It's probably unintended for Balance Druids to be able to snapshot mastery outside of the proc and it'll most likely be fixed soon enough.

Crit is valued higher than mastery for single target so thats why im wondering why we choose mastery to snapshot instead of crit.

[Alame]

Yes, I know, That is why im asking why dont we use Infernal writ trinket instead, since crit is better valued.

No one's explained this well. Let's throwback to BRF days of Alame teaching Ka to play Boomkin


Empowerments are bugged - the additional damage boost they provide that is based on mastery (the X portion of 15 + X%) will snapshot whatever mastery value you have when the aura is first applied to you. Number of stacks of the aura doesn't matter, so long as the aura doesn't drop off the empowerments granted by that aura will always provide the same benefit as you mastery total when you gained the aura, regardless of what your mastery is when you actually consume the empowerment. So when you have the trinket, you dump all your empowerments when it procs, then cast Starsurge when it reaches 10 stacks, then maintain at least 1 stack of each empowerment throughout the fight. Done correctly, every empowered LS/SW cast after your successful snapshot will deal damage as if you had 10 stacks of focused lightning, regardless of how many stacks you actually have. This is better with Emerald Dreamcatcher, as lower Starsurge cost = more starsurge = more empowerments to use.

We can't do the same with Infernal Writ because Infernal Writ doesn't change the scaling of Empowerments. It's the empowerments that are bugged, not the focused lightning trinket. Because Infernal Writ doesn't provide any direct benefit to the empowerments themselves (instead the boost from infernal writ is applied to the nuke that the empowerment .... empowers) there's no scaling to snapshot. Yes, crit is stronger than Mastery but you can't exploit the bug to cast all your empowerments at max stack of Infernal Writ, so the effective mastery gained from Focused lightning & snapshotting exceeds to benefit provided by Infernal Writ.

[MV Kaa]

Thanks buddy, now explain to me further about the rotation because so far, I dont notice a huge change. Yes I am dropping empowerments, SS at 10 stacks, and holding 1 stack of both buffs. But is it really as simple as SS, SF, SS, SF, SS, SF? Best way to refresh sunfire? When to weave in Full moon? How bad is it to drop the helm buff and sort of reset without losing the trinket buff?

[Alame]

Thanks buddy, now explain to me further about the rotation because so far, I dont notice a huge change. Yes I am dropping empowerments, SS at 10 stacks, and holding 1 stack of both buffs. But is it really as simple as SS, SF, SS, SF, SS, SF? Best way to refresh sunfire? When to weave in Full moon? How bad is it to drop the helm buff and sort of reset without losing the trinket buff?

The rotation doesn't change at all. The only additional stipulation added by snapshotting is that you never completely deplete your Empowerment stacks. You still play the exact same way you would with Emerald Dreamcatcher - With enough haste you can SS/LS/SW within the 3-second window of the helm buff (take Starlord) and max out your ED stacks. You build up to 100 AsP then SS -> LS -> SW -> SS -> LS -> SW -> SS repeat until you're out of AsP to Starsurge - then helm buff drops off, you refresh DoTs, and use Moons to get back to 100 AsP without consuming your last stack of Empowerment.

Losing the helm buff is inevitable at some point, because you can't generate enough AsP for a Starsurge and dump empowerment stacks in the 3-second window of the buff. You want to fit as many Starsurges in as possible (which is why you start at 100 AsP and play similar to FoE-style) but sooner or later you have to reset, which is your DoT-refresh window.

Moons are used almost exclusively to build AsP without burning an Empowerment stack

[MV Kaa]

I dont have much haste right now, only 25% so I can only fit in one LS per SS. Is that why my damage didnt go up that much because of my low haste and not being able to cast LS and SW in between SS? How much haste do I need ot be able to cast both? Because right now I can barely fit in a LS.

Sorry im still a scrub with this helm, I only started using it last week because the ring is more ez mode

[Alame]

I dont have much haste right now, only 25% so I can only fit in one LS per SS. Is that why my damage didnt go up that much because of my low haste and not being able to cast LS and SW in between SS? How much haste do I need ot be able to cast both? Because right now I can barely fit in a LS.

Sorry im still a scrub with this helm, I only started using it last week because the ring is more ez mode

4s cast time for LS+SW (3.2 w/ Starlord)
1.5s GCD incurred by SS

4.7s of action to occur within a 3s buff
4.7 * X = 3
X = 64% 64% haste = 20800 rating.

Mathing it out I guess that's not actually possible in current gear levels (or at least very, very difficult.)

You're probably better off cycling differently if that's the case - Build 70 AsP, double Starsurge, 2x SW, 2x LS, refresh dots if necessary, repeat. I can't say for sure without simming the individual cases. Once you hit the magic haste number (probably early/mid Nighthold) you can swap to the other cycle.

Edit: Thinking about it - can someone with the helm confirm whether the buff application is on Starsurge cast or the application of damage (projectile hitting target)? If the latter the additional time gained by staying at max range could see that breakpoint drop a bit.

[MV Kaa]

Wait, that rotation doesnt look right, If I double SS, and then SW and LW twice, wont i drop the trinket buff?

[Alame]

Wait, that rotation doesnt look right, If I double SS, and then SW and LW twice, wont i drop the trinket buff?

Start with one stack (from your snapshot) -> 2x SS (3 stacks) -> 2x nukes (1 stack)

[MV Kaa]

Thanks for the help guys, got rank 7 on Ursoc when we finally killed it. <3

[wing5wong]

7.1 Patch notes are in, have listed them below for visibility.

[SiMo]

7.1 Patch notes are in, have listed them below for visibility.

at first i was like maybe he forgot to list them then i checked front page and then was like... well played.

[Kyanion]

at first i was like maybe he forgot the list them then i checked front page and then was like... well played.

Haha yeah he got me too! Well played indeed.

[paror]

7.1 Patch notes are in, have listed them below for visibility.

Made me smile altho I am sad at the same time

[Myztikrice]

Losing the helm buff is inevitable at some point, because you can't generate enough AsP for a Starsurge and dump empowerment stacks in the 3-second window of the buff. You want to fit as many Starsurges in as possible (which is why you start at 100 AsP and play similar to FoE-style) but sooner or later you have to reset, which is your DoT-refresh window.

Moons are used almost exclusively to build AsP without burning an Empowerment stack

I don't see why, just don't use up your last Lunar Empowerment

[Alame]

I don't see why, just don't use up your last Lunar Empowerment

Dont see why what? Why you have to drop the helm buff? It's 3 seconds long, not tied to the empowerments.

Helm buff and empowerment snapshotting are two different mechanics.

[Myztikrice]

Ah, misread, my bad.

[Frostyfire14]

Incredibly sad to announce the perma-armored moonkin form is now back ONLY with Incarnation. I'm sad

Just logged on the PTR this morning, October 19.

One additional thing, on the PTR my Moonfire and Sunfire dot damage is incredibly lower than live (according to the tooltip)

Live: 318,800
PTR: 243,882

Edit: I made sure I was flasked in both versions.

[Lahis]

Incredibly sad to announce the perma-armored moonkin form is now back ONLY with Incarnation. I'm sad

Just logged on the PTR this morning, October 19.

One additional thing, on the PTR my Moonfire and Sunfire dot damage is incredibly lower than live (according to the tooltip)

Live: 318,800
PTR: 243,882

Edit: I made sure I was flasked in both versions.

Stealth nerfs! Because we are doing so good already!!

[Madus]

One additional thing, on the PTR my Moonfire and Sunfire dot damage is incredibly lower than live (according to the tooltip)

Live: 318,800
PTR: 243,882

Seems logical dots are underpowered on live and reason why we sucks in pvp/pve so nerf is justified.