No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Thimagryn]

So once again you are advocating for aspects that you want to avoid on the ground to be put into the air? This goes back to not improving the game in any way but to allow flight while taking the main aspect of what people want it for (saving time and convenience) away.
The thing that is beginning to boggle the mind is that you are advocating for all these things, stating how it will improve the game and make the game better, while failing to realize the things you are advocating for are already on the ground. All you are changing is the vertical game, which going back to your advocated ideas, would change drastically the paradigm of flight. You now no longer have mountains and ground paths to maneuver around, you know have cannons that blast you out of the sky and patrolling mobs to avoid. We are back to full circle discussions.

The pro-flight agenda is simple - unlock flight without arbitrary time gating beyond an achievement unlock system. Also, refine the achievement unlock requirements to be more relevant to Flight. Doesn't matter if flight itself needs to be improved or changed to become more immersive or less intrusive to ground play; just don't limit flight to some ominous, arbitrary future release.

[Dhrizzle]

Person A is arguing that the ground play is immersive/engaging because of obstacles and ground-based mechanics. Flight bypasses obstacles and mechanics, so the implication is that pro-flighters should ask Blizzard to improve flight.

The response is we're okay with changes to flight where warranted.

Person B criticizes the response by saying all the supposed improvements to flight are already found on the ground. See how the context is completely removed by having ignored Person A's comments?

Person A is complaining about the ground being filled with "pointless" wastes of time they want to avoid.

Person B says that's part of the game.

Person A says maybe Blizz should put obstacles and stuff in the air so the game "evolves."

Person B points out they complained about content on the ground, so why wouldn't they complain about content in the air.

Person A says Person B is just a blind fanatical supporter of Blizzard.

[Thimagryn]

I think a more apt comparison would be if all raids were LFR difficulty, and players who wanted the challenge of higher difficulties would have to take off pieces of gear, remove their more powerful spells from their bars or play with an incomplete group.

And yet we still wonder why so many people want to go back to Vanilla raiding where Mythic and LFR don't exist. Curious, eh? It's as if players value content differently from each other :O

BTW, you heard of Project 60? Because that's exactly what they do. They raid with fewer-than-40 and forbid the use of heirlooms and talents. It's what some players are doing in the absence of Vanilla and old content that no longer exists in WoW. At least they have the option to play this way, and the old raids aren't limited to LFG systems and gearscores to enter.

- - - Updated - - -

Person A is complaining about the ground being filled with "pointless" wastes of time they want to avoid.

Person B says that's part of the game. Person B implies flight is broken for being able to avoid content on the ground.

Person A says Person B is just a blind fanatical supporter of Blizzard.
Person A says maybe Blizz should put obstacles and stuff in the air so the game "evolves."

Person C points out they complained about content on the ground, so why wouldn't they complain about content in the air.

Fixed it for you.

[SirCowdog]

If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument.

Except that I was addressing their actions, not the people themselves. I didn't say , "Alex Afriasabi and Ion Hazzicostas are stupid dumb heads", I said Blizzard(who is not a person) and their blind fanatic are ignoring the issue; which they are.

Although I'll admit I probably went overboard with the "blind" part. They're clearly seeing something.

- - - Updated - - -

So once again you are advocating for aspects that you want to avoid on the ground to be put into the air? This goes back to not improving the game in any way but to allow flight while taking the main aspect of what people want it for (saving time and convenience) away.
The thing that is beginning to boggle the mind is that you are advocating for all these things, stating how it will improve the game and make the game better, while failing to realize the things you are advocating for are already on the ground. All you are changing is the vertical game, which going back to your advocated ideas, would change drastically the paradigm of flight. You now no longer have mountains and ground paths to maneuver around, you know have cannons that blast you out of the sky and patrolling mobs to avoid. We are back to full circle discussions.

Sigh...



We've been over the differences between what you're saying and what I mean as nausem. I don't know why you insist on repeating something you know I didn't intend.

[Dormie]

That picture sums up this whole thread.

[-Joker-]

Ok...better. My eyes feel a bit cleaner now.

The open world ceases to be dangerous shortly after reaching level cap. 840-850 ilvl gear is quickly and easily obtained, making anything less than a pack of 10+ normal mobs, or 3+ elites, trivially easy. Even while leveling without flight, with low AP and completely un-optimized gear, I was rounding up as many NPC enemies as I could, then using AOE to drop them before moving on to the next pack. Dangerous open world? You are either very VERY bad at this game, or badly over-exaggerating the example in an attempt to give your argument weight that it simply doesn't have.

Dazing is not dangerous either. It's annoying. Furthermore, Blizzard gave us an item that buffs you so you are immune to it, further trivializing the mechanic.

Approach the content and engage with it? You mean that massively dull and slow content with no enemies called a road? Or maybe you mean the twisting mountain path or cliff that serves no purpose other than to waste even more of my time, with nothing at the end besides more trivial quest mobs? The same path that I skip at every opportunity using gliding+emerald winds that Blizzard gave me?

Your argument, like Blizzard's, is built on bullshit. It's simply not true, and until it is, there is no reason to withhold flying other than to be a cheap, thinly-veiled cash grab.

Maybe you need a reminder of what WoW really is:


Humans rode horses. Orcs rode wolves. The ONLY time you see a gryphon is when Lothar takes a FP to and from Dalaran, Karazhan, and Stormwind. Otherwise, the bulk of the adventure is on the ground in thick forests of the Black Morass , or in the rocky ridged caverns of what would become Deadwind Pass. Khadgar and Medivh both used portals and neither turned into a raven.

You are operating under the false assumption that flight is necessary in the game. Truth of the matter is, it is only important in YOUR game, the way YOU play. The rest of us appear to be doing just fine.

[Eapoe]

Except that I was addressing their actions, not the people themselves. I didn't say , "Alex Afriasabi and Ion Hazzicostas are stupid dumb heads", I said Blizzard(who is not a person) is ignoring the issue.

Although I'll admit I probably went overboard with the "blind" part. They're clearly seeing something.

- - - Updated - - -



Sigh...



We've been over the differences between what you're saying and what I mean as nausem. I don't know why you insist on repeating something you know I didn't intend.

Yes, I know, and yet you keep saying you advocate for something and when the flaws are pointed out you say that's not what you are asking for. I even asked you to clarify a few posts back about what you wanted, things like tech increase such as lift, drag, velocity, or more along the lines of air combat (which Blizzard even admitted they had a hard time making feel fun in a raid setting) or things like the mechanics from the ground (which again, is what most people in this thread have avidly pointed out they want to skip with flight).
You've even tried pointing out how Suramar city works and Blizzqrd could base flight off something similar; yet, Suramar has its drawbacks (many have been complained about) and I point out the flaw to that comparison. I understand you want more interesting flight mechanics to justify flight yet don't acknowledge the issues with them and try to play it off that "it's not what you are saying." So, I ask, what are you saying, if I have it so wrong?
Flight will be back eventually, until then I'm enjoying the game Blizzard gave us. If I didn't enjoy it, I'd stop playing it. Flight will still be the time saving, content skipping convenience it's always been, and that's fine, as the content we are doing now is still relevant, takes very little time (unless you're a min/max type of player), and doesn't need flight to make it better. It needs flight to make it go faster for people who can't play 1-2 hours a day in the world. It needs flight to skip the things you want to skip. It doesn't need flight to be a better game, as you've said yourself, you still have to land to play the game.

[-Joker-]

And that's the crux of the issue with lack of flight. Rather than have the freedom of choice, we are forced.

Just as my (albeit flawed) example of raiding; if Blizzard made LFR mandatory BEFORE raiding, it would piss off many raiders. It's totally up to Blizzard to do this if they wanted to, for whatever reason. LFR may never have been mandatory, but there had been great incentives for it that made people who didn't really need to do it still use it to cap out their weekly valor gains or to fill out their tier sets. Blizzard improved the system to the point now where LFR no longer has those incentives and remains as a 'sightseeing mode' of raiding. These improvements are a result of ongoing criticisms and complaints over LFR having too many good rewards.

As a power gamer, why would I want to be hindered by terrain/mobs/daze mechanics/time restraints? I don't play end-game WoW for its immersion. When I play the end-game, all I see are numbers and health bars. When I raid, all I see are numbers and health bars. If I want immersion, I'd play a different game that does it better. Leveling up is where you experience the immersion; after that it breaks with all repeatable world content. Why must immersion be forced after the content it was designed for is already complete? If what you say is true and the world is more immersive for being on the ground, then how do you explain the immersion-breaking Flight Whistle and Goblin Gliders which so many people are dependant on? People aren't as interested in immersion as you think. World content in Legion is a success because of the improved content design, not because it is now immersive. Lack of Flight and Immersion are not the driving reasons people do world content.

Again, I believe Blizzard withholds flight because of content pacing reasoning. Immersion is simply a PR thing; because if they really wanted people being immersive they wouldn't have included the flight whistle and other flight alternatives.

People still do that, albeit with other tools. Your argument is moot because of the presence of flight alternatives. What flight actually achieves is limitless use of being in the air at the control of the player. It's the freedom to play as we choose which we want returned to WoW.

Everyone in the game is forced, yet 5 people on this entire site with 13348 users online are complaining about the lack of flight. The percentage is SO LOW even the calculator flips out with an error. If you truly are a "power gamer" then you are more concerned with raiding and less concerned with the open world anyway. As for goblin gliders and flight whistles, everything in this game is immersion breaking. Do you know how many Ashbringers there are being weilded by "Highlords" who replaced Tirion Fordring? The game can really only have so much immersion, and pro-flight extremists want to shred what little is left by pulling a dragon out of thin air so they can do their WQs and gathering faster.

Blizz will give us all flight... at some point. Legion is a greater success than WoD, and continues to feel full of life and the zones are still loaded with players. But since I am asking people to listen to the truth, let's share ALL of the truth.

WoW is an MMO. It is sub based. Blizz makes more money the longer someone is subbed. The longer it takes to complete tasks, the longer one needs to be subbed (unless of course they are enjoying themselves and unsubbing is not an option). So by taking us out of the sky, and handing us the occasional flight gimmick, they can successfully extend the amount of time it takes to consume content. Then again, Sir Cowdog and others have expressed how easy it is to get geared and raiding, so it would seem that even without flight, people are staying subbed and working on their end game, rather than sitting around waiting for their dragon to defy gravity.

Our "freedom" is a reward from a Meta achievement. Until the meta is complete, I'm afraid it's a moot point. Stop and think for a moment why you really started playing wow and what you enjoyed about that first few weeks of playtime. If you, and others, are TRULY honest with yourselves, you're gonna recall certain questlines, dungeons, gear, pets, etc. I started in TBC where flight was a reward at lvl 70. My most fond memory, a Warlock enslaving a Drake from Burning Stepps and unleashing it in the Inn of Goldshire. I am not in this game for the pocket-dragons, and neither are about 7M other people.

[Thimagryn]

Everyone in the game is forced, yet 5 people on this entire site with 13348 users online are complaining about the lack of flight.

5 people are also pushing back saying the lack of flight doesn't matter. You see how this is entirely circular?

WoW is an MMO. It is sub based. Blizz makes more money the longer someone is subbed. The longer it takes to complete tasks, the longer one needs to be subbed (unless of course they are enjoying themselves and unsubbing is not an option). So by taking us out of the sky, and handing us the occasional flight gimmick, they can successfully extend the amount of time it takes to consume content.

Pointed out and completely understood by pro-flight. If this is the way Blizzard wants it, then unsubbing is the only answer. You already know we've been through this.

Then again, Sir Cowdog and others have expressed how easy it is to get geared and raiding, so it would seem that even without flight, people are staying subbed and working on their end game, rather than sitting around waiting for their dragon to defy gravity.

The people who are happy with content aren't going to participate in the conversation for flight. Why would they care? They're playing the game. This is not a concern for them.

Our "freedom" is a reward from a Meta achievement. Until the meta is complete, I'm afraid it's a moot point. Stop and think for a moment why you really started playing wow and what you enjoyed about that first few weeks of playtime. If you, and others, are TRULY honest with yourselves, you're gonna recall certain questlines, dungeons, gear, pets, etc. I started in TBC where flight was a reward at lvl 70. My most fond memory, a Warlock enslaving a Drake from Burning Stepps and unleashing it in the Inn of Goldshire. I am not in this game for the pocket-dragons, and neither are about 7M other people.

Again, this thread isn't about how people should be satisfied with game content. The point is that some people value flight enough to consider it their reason to play, and from a player standpoint, there is no player-driven reason why flight needs to be kept out. No-flight does nothing to add more gameplay to the player, and it does little to add more immersion (considering we have plenty of flight alternative items), and we already know flight will be added. There's literally no reason to hold it back other than Blizzard's own reasoning.

Defending Blizzard's stance using their own reasoning (immersion, challenge) is moot, considering most players already actively avoid and break immersion using these tools. If YOU are honest with yourself, you'd realize the repeated end-game content is not the same as the first weeks of play. You're using irrelevant comparisons of flight to leveling content. Pro-flight is absolutely fine with having no-flight until 110. Once you hit 110, there is no reason why the world needs to remain dangerous or arbitrarily time consuming. It is an arbitrary restriction, not a player-driven cry for immersion.

I'm sure if you put a poll up on Blizzard's own forums right now asking if people would rather have flight or immersion, you'd see the overwhelming response for flight. Also consider that Blizzard can give us flight AND immersion in the same package if they cared to develop world quests with phasing technology. Like I keep iterating - there is no compelling reason to keep flight locked until a later patch.

[-Joker-]

5 people are also pushing back saying the lack of flight doesn't matter. You see how this is entirely circular?

5 people pushing back are bored, and hanging in a thread they are not bothered by. Millions of people playing, most of them never visit fan sites. If lack of flight were a "big deal" there would be half as many people playing at this moment.

[Thimagryn]

It's not a big deal. I even have stated multiple times that Blizzard doesn't think this is a big deal.

But it does not mean it is an issue unworthy of talking about. If LFR was broken enough for people to speak out about, and Blizzard was able to change LFR's rewards to no longer affect raiders, then I think something like flight can be talked about on the same right. Were people unsubbing because of LFR? Not likely many people were doing that, yet the discussions were still made. Are people unsubbing because of flight? Some people are; and suddenly it becomes taboo to talk about?

If there are issues with the game, they should be talked about. We shouldn't have to wait until millions of people are leaving the game before conversation happens.

[-Joker-]

It's not a big deal. I even have stated multiple times that Blizzard doesn't think this is a big deal.

But it does not mean it is an issue unworthy of talking about. If LFR was broken enough for people to speak out about, and Blizzard was able to change LFR's rewards to no longer affect raiders, then I think something like flight can be talked about on the same right. Were people unsubbing because of LFR? Not likely many people were doing that, yet the discussions were still made. Are people unsubbing because of flight? Some people are; and suddenly it becomes taboo to talk about?

If there are issues with the game, they should be talked about. We shouldn't have to wait until millions of people are leaving the game before conversation happens.

There is a difference between conversation, and pro-flight extremists mocking the opinions of those who are unaffected by Legion, and who continue to exaggerate and stretch the truth to fit some narrative that just doesn't exist. Blizz wants constructive feedback from its players, and consumers. They have plenty of ways to offer said feedback on their official forums. As you put it, at this point, this thread is really just 10 people running in circles, and the only reason it is not archived is because the extremists want to make sure their "side" is the last one seen, and continue to pat each other on the back for their posts. The only reason the thread is not locked is to contain this minor discussion in one place, so certain posters are not making a new thread each day.

[Mafic]

If you've read many of my posts you'd know that I advocate full integration of flying into the content design(including various ways to keep it interesting instead of just "flying over everything". The only people ignoring the problem are Blizzard and their blind fanatical supporters.

The main point of contention here is that I, and many others, don't believe that removing flight accomplishes the things which Blizzard says it does. And the parts that it does accomplish, does it in such an underhanded, ham-fisted manner that almost all value is drained out of it.

I think you have made your position clear so at this point it seem some people are conflating what you believe with what I believe.

I do not believe flying has to change at all to be used at the start of expansions. Flying doesn't impede the design of towers, caves, tents, etc to hide objectives. As BC, WotLK, Cata, MoP, WoD (especially Tanaan) and Legion all show is that Blizzard still hides primary objectives in caves, towers, buildings, forest canopies, basins, etc where using a ground mount is difficult or not possible. So flying mounts are rendered useless as well by this design.

Tanaan is a perfect example where a good chunk of elites were hidden away in towers, buildings, or surrounded by so many elites it made pulling almost impossible. The few elite mobs that were out in the open of Tanaan had significantly more HP and required more player effort to take down.

Flying doesn't trivialize Tanaan, so by default it wouldn't trivialize WoD zones in general. Treasure rewards were low scale and Legion is no different with low scale treasures.

[SirCowdog]

Yes, I know, and yet you keep saying you advocate for something and when the flaws are pointed out you say that's not what you are asking for. I even asked you to clarify a few posts back about what you wanted, things like tech increase such as lift, drag, velocity, or more along the lines of air combat (which Blizzard even admitted they had a hard time making feel fun in a raid setting) or things like the mechanics from the ground (which again, is what most people in this thread have avidly pointed out they want to skip with flight).
You've even tried pointing out how Suramar city works and Blizzqrd could base flight off something similar; yet, Suramar has its drawbacks (many have been complained about) and I point out the flaw to that comparison. I understand you want more interesting flight mechanics to justify flight yet don't acknowledge the issues with them and try to play it off that "it's not what you are saying." So, I ask, what are you saying, if I have it so wrong?
Flight will be back eventually, until then I'm enjoying the game Blizzard gave us. If I didn't enjoy it, I'd stop playing it. Flight will still be the time saving, content skipping convenience it's always been, and that's fine, as the content we are doing now is still relevant, takes very little time (unless you're a min/max type of player), and doesn't need flight to make it better. It needs flight to make it go faster for people who can't play 1-2 hours a day in the world. It needs flight to skip the things you want to skip. It doesn't need flight to be a better game, as you've said yourself, you still have to land to play the game.

I keep having to say "That's not what I'm saying" because people constantly twist what I AM saying to male their own arguments sound better. At this point I've explained myself so many times that I'm sick of having to keep doing it, only so someone can misinterpret it again.

All YOU really have to say is that you disagree with my points, and so we can agree to disagree.

[Blur4stuff]

every argument here is the same one from a year ago which was the same one from a year ago which was...

even the ones where you're just parsing each other's words for the sake of being argumentative

[Mafic]

WoW is definitely starting to feel like a niche MMO to me in terms of it's what you play when you want that 'old-timey' MMO feel, a stark contrast to what I felt back in the Wrath days when I thought WoW was pioneering the genre. Compared to more modern MMOs I've played, WoW feels archaic. Their transit system, refusal to adopt various QoL improvements, as well as consistently maintaining a dead outdoor world at max level while pressuring players to participate in instanced group content is keeping them from being more successful than they are.

WoW was a cutting edge MMORPG with flying, daily system, currency system for players to gear up progress while attempting harder content for RNG drops from known loot tables. Now?

Everythig is gated by layers of RNG with no time table or known loot tables and flying is gated to an unknown time table and unknown requirements. WotLK had deterministic rewards while with Legion it is all RNG.

Hardwork is not rewarded in Legion like previous expansions so trying to create the illusion of hardwork by gating flying via reps is Blizzard's way of compensating for this. But again rep grinding isn't hard work.

Hitting the space bar to ensure you don't afk out of the Xavius LFR fight isn't hard work either if we are to be brutally honest.

Legion patchfinder part 2, 3, etc who knows? are not going to reward hard work but sheer tedium.

[Thimagryn]

There is a difference between conversation, and pro-flight extremists mocking the opinions of those who are unaffected by Legion, and who continue to exaggerate and stretch the truth to fit some narrative that just doesn't exist. Blizz wants constructive feedback from its players, and consumers. They have plenty of ways to offer said feedback on their official forums. As you put it, at this point, this thread is really just 10 people running in circles, and the only reason it is not archived is because the extremists want to make sure their "side" is the last one seen, and continue to pat each other on the back for their posts. The only reason the thread is not locked is to contain this minor discussion in one place, so certain posters are not making a new thread each day.

The mocking is happening on both sides, don't pretend to be the victim here. There are just as many people jumping in to say 'People are STILL complaining?!'.

I'm simply saying you're not helping this situation by fighting back with extremes on your own side of the argument. Take this statement you made for example
"The game can really only have so much immersion, and pro-flight extremists want to shred what little is left by pulling a dragon out of thin air so they can do their WQs and gathering faster."

Already extreme, and already wrong. Flight Whistle and Goblin Glider already shreds this immersion without flight. Everyone uses it. Blizzard's own design is breaking their own immersion. It's fallacies like this that are perpuating the circle of ignorance. It doesn't excuse certain pro-flighters from using extreme arguments either, but you have to know who is making what argument too.

Including flight in WoW doesn't have to kill immersion; and immersion in WoW is already bypassable with in-game flight items. Pro-flighters are indifferent to immersion, and immersion can co-exist as long as Blizzard retains limitations on current content (no-fly zones, elites in towers and phasing). Breaking immersion is not worth discussing at all here.

[Mafic]

every argument here is the same one from a year ago which was the same one from a year ago which was...

even the ones where you're just parsing each other's words for the sake of being argumentative

That may be what you observe from just a quick glance. The truth is that the arguments have changed because of what was learned in WoD and how Legion has patchfinder part 1 with a "mid expansion" time line. Arguments are very similar, but now are increasingly in favor of pro flying as time goes on. This is because in WoD it was argued that the no flying idea has not yet been put in place so it was unknown how players would react.

Based on player overwhelming support of keeping flying in WoW and stopping the devs from removing flying it appears that the first major hurdle was cleared.

Now, a new hurdle emerges and players of pro flying faction must circle the wagons once more to stave off WoW devs plans to suffocate flying in Legion.

[rda]

every argument here is the same one from a year ago which was the same one from a year ago which was...

even the ones where you're just parsing each other's words for the sake of being argumentative

Some Legion-specific complaints from me - Legion made no-flying even worse than it was in Draenor because:

* world quests require way more travel than before - it's good that there are more things it makes sense to travel to, but world quests spacing adds to travel time significantly, so you get both a spoon of honey and a spoon of dirt so to speak,

* mobs scale to your level = more annoying, while still similarly unrewarding - note how the annoyance factor went up while the reward factor remained non-existent,

* archaeology now requires way more solves, thanks to the new tuning of the RNG,

etc.

It is true the thread sees a lot of repetition, but there's quite a bit of new info, too. And the general direction of it is that the idea of a world without flying being more immersive / engaging / whatever is as laughable in Legion as it was in Draenor. In fact, perhaps more laughable in Legion, see the factors above (the list is not full, but the first two factors are already enough).

[Thimagryn]

Now, a new hurdle emerges and players of pro flying faction must circle the wagons once more to stave off WoW devs plans to suffocate flying in Legion.

That tired rhetoric leads you nowhere. Flight isn't suffocated when it's already being promised. And what is the point of circling wagons? There is no pro-flying 'faction'. I'm pro-flight and you've argued against me plenty of times. Not everyone wants the same damn thing.