1. #11781
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That tired rhetoric leads you nowhere. Flight isn't suffocated when it's already being promised. And what is the point of circling wagons? There is no pro-flying 'faction'. I'm pro-flight and you've argued against me plenty of times. Not everyone wants the same damn thing.
    By that logic there are no political factions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion Fan View Post
    Maybe you need a reminder of what WoW really is:


    Humans rode horses. Orcs rode wolves. The ONLY time you see a gryphon is when Lothar takes a FP to and from Dalaran, Karazhan, and Stormwind. Otherwise, the bulk of the adventure is on the ground in thick forests of the Black Morass , or in the rocky ridged caverns of what would become Deadwind Pass. Khadgar and Medivh both used portals and neither turned into a raven.

    You are operating under the false assumption that flight is necessary in the game. Truth of the matter is, it is only important in YOUR game, the way YOU play. The rest of us appear to be doing just fine.
    So you mean Lothar and his gryphon didn't fight side by side to retrieve the king?
    We obviously watched two different movies then.
    Last edited by Karon; 2016-10-19 at 05:53 AM.

  2. #11782
    Quote Originally Posted by Karon View Post
    So you mean Lothar and his gryphon didn't fight side by side to retrieve the king?
    We obviously watched two different movies then.
    Yeah, I was not sure about the logic of pointing to a movie which has both going by ground and flying, then spending a paragraph trying to say that flying in the movie was obviously a glitch, and concluding that the movie shows that flying is not necessary in the game. :-/

    (I mean it wouldn't be a particularly appealing point even if the movie did not have flying it all, but with the movie actually featuring flying, it's just totally bizarre.)

  3. #11783
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion Fan View Post
    Maybe you need a reminder of what WoW really is:
    The entirety of the first 25 seconds contains pure majestic flying scenes and shows exactly why we want to fly, what are you trying to imply?
    Yes that is exactly how WoW is meant to be played, that´s why we want flying.

  4. #11784
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion Fan View Post
    Everyone in the game is forced, yet 5 people on this entire site with 13348 users online are complaining about the lack of flight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    5 people are also pushing back saying the lack of flight doesn't matter. You see how this is entirely circular?
    Not unlike a circlejerk, in fact.

  5. #11785
    Wow 600 pages about flying... Let me give my 2 cents.

    I love flying because it's convenient. It saves me a lot of time but not only that.
    One of the reasons I picked demon hunter is because of the gliding. How many times are you on a quest and you need to jump over a simple rock and you can't do it, causing you to do 5-10 mins of running around? Is it bad map designing? I don't know...

    Anyway, I looooved the WoLK system. You experience everything for the first time and then you get your alts available for flying. So simple.

    I understand that you shouldn't be able to fly in the release of the expansion. I get that you have to do all the exploring, leveling or whatever on foot and it makes sense. However since im an altoholic I want to speed things up...

    Also, blizzard should stop selling flying mounts right now UNLESS they have a text which says "can only be used to explore previous content, hehe xd".

  6. #11786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion Fan View Post
    Maybe you need a reminder of what WoW really is:
    You're confusing WoW with Warcraft, two different types of game with differing design/ideology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekPowa View Post
    Anyway, I looooved the WoLK system. You experience everything for the first time and then you get your alts available for flying. So simple.
    Funnily enough WotLK was the most successful expansion whereas the two without flying are the least successful, strange that...

  7. #11787
    Quote Originally Posted by GreekPowa View Post
    Also, blizzard should stop selling flying mounts right now UNLESS they have a text which says "can only be used to explore previous content, hehe xd".
    They won't ever do that as long as they can get away with Pathfinder. As I've said in the past, Pathfinder gives Blizzard everything that No-flying was meant to accomplish, but without actually having the face the consequences of removing flight entirely. It's not being done for the benefit of the players or the improvement of the game. It's 100% meant as a tool for profit. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either absolutely ignorant(willful or otherwise), disingenuous, or working for Blizzard.

    Read other parts of the thread if you want to see why this is true. Thimagryn's posts are especially informative.

    EDIT: For all the haters out there, please note that I said "PATHFINDER", not the removal of flight. These are two different things.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-10-19 at 11:04 AM.

  8. #11788
    Quote Originally Posted by GreekPowa View Post
    I understand that you shouldn't be able to fly in the release of the expansion. I get that you have to do all the exploring, leveling or whatever on foot and it makes sense.
    I actually don't understand that.

    This "you have to do all the exploring, bla bla bla" prior to getting flight is completely artificial. I mean, I get it, they have this - ludicrous - requirement because they want you to spend longer to get to your favorite types of content. Because every extra month you play is extra money for them. But no, it's not fine. It's not natural, it's completely and utterly artificial and serves noone except Blizzard's pockets.

    What, if you had flying, you wouldn't have explored everything if you are into that? And if you aren't into that, why the hell should you be forced to explore everything? Hey, let's require killing 100,000 mobs in order to hit level 110 from 109. Why not, "you have to prove you are capable of holding your weapon" or some other BS.

    It is pretty sad that things are already so screwed up that we just accept this form of extending content as fine.
    Last edited by rda; 2016-10-19 at 11:13 AM.

  9. #11789
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The mocking is happening on both sides, don't pretend to be the victim here. There are just as many people jumping in to say 'People are STILL complaining?!'.

    I'm simply saying you're not helping this situation by fighting back with extremes on your own side of the argument. Take this statement you made for example
    "The game can really only have so much immersion, and pro-flight extremists want to shred what little is left by pulling a dragon out of thin air so they can do their WQs and gathering faster."

    Already extreme, and already wrong. Flight Whistle and Goblin Glider already shreds this immersion without flight. Everyone uses it. Blizzard's own design is breaking their own immersion. It's fallacies like this that are perpuating the circle of ignorance. It doesn't excuse certain pro-flighters from using extreme arguments either, but you have to know who is making what argument too.

    Including flight in WoW doesn't have to kill immersion; and immersion in WoW is already bypassable with in-game flight items. Pro-flighters are indifferent to immersion, and immersion can co-exist as long as Blizzard retains limitations on current content (no-fly zones, elites in towers and phasing). Breaking immersion is not worth discussing at all here.
    The in-game flight items add a choice and a more risky play than pure flight. With the glider you'd have to go up high and aim right to land where you want to. Most of the movement can be broken with cleaver play and smart thinking. All of that is removed as soon as you add flying with mounts. Restrictions add problem solving.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  10. #11790
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalamander View Post
    The entirety of the first 25 seconds contains pure majestic flying scenes and shows exactly why we want to fly, what are you trying to imply?
    Yes that is exactly how WoW is meant to be played, that´s why we want flying.
    That flying gryphon toward the end of the movie is the MVP in my honest opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekPowa View Post
    Wow 600 pages about flying... Let me give my 2 cents.

    I love flying because it's convenient. It saves me a lot of time but not only that.
    One of the reasons I picked demon hunter is because of the gliding. How many times are you on a quest and you need to jump over a simple rock and you can't do it, causing you to do 5-10 mins of running around? Is it bad map designing? I don't know...

    Anyway, I looooved the WoLK system. You experience everything for the first time and then you get your alts available for flying. So simple.

    I understand that you shouldn't be able to fly in the release of the expansion. I get that you have to do all the exploring, leveling or whatever on foot and it makes sense. However since im an altoholic I want to speed things up...

    Also, blizzard should stop selling flying mounts right now UNLESS they have a text which says "can only be used to explore previous content, hehe xd".
    Thank you Greek brother!

    Flying for alts was so awesome in WotLK. If they did that for Legion I would say that would alleviate the stress with leveling alts in Legion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    The in-game flight items add a choice and a more risky play than pure flight. With the glider you'd have to go up high and aim right to land where you want to. Most of the movement can be broken with cleaver play and smart thinking. All of that is removed as soon as you add flying with mounts. Restrictions add problem solving.
    Problem solving doesn't work for a game like WoW where even the maps are poor representations of the actual terrain.

  11. #11791
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    The in-game flight items add a choice and a more risky play than pure flight. With the glider you'd have to go up high and aim right to land where you want to. Most of the movement can be broken with cleaver play and smart thinking. All of that is removed as soon as you add flying with mounts. Restrictions add problem solving.
    Please tell me that you don't see this as "problem solving" because I consider such things as beneath my problem solving capacity. I have a university degree. If this is "problem solving"... oh my.

    It's more like "now make me a sandwich with one arm tied to your back and be careful with the knife".

  12. #11792
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Problem solving doesn't work for a game like WoW where even the maps are poor representations of the actual terrain.
    I think it works. "I'm going to A from B. What takes the least amount of time?" Maybe I go up high to glide down, maybe I risk going through many mobs, maybe there's some kind of grappling hook way. I admit it might not be "problem solving" but you're presented with a variety of options instead of just mounting and flying. Mount flight is a no-briner effectively speaking. I kinda like that part. There's of-course times when I get frustrated and only wish for flying but mostly because I don't want to do the activity at all and that's a flaw with the activity, not flying in it self.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Please tell me that you don't see this as "problem solving" because I consider such things as beneath my problem solving capacity. I have a university degree. If this is "problem solving"... oh my.

    It's more like "now make me a sandwich with one arm tied to your back and be careful with the knife".
    Exactly! When you finally manage to make that sandwich you'll be revealed and maybe impressed with your cleverness! That's how I see it. I find joy in going a different path or trying something clever. No flying contributes to creativity, in my opinion. Instead of remarking on how limited you are, you should instead embrace it as a challenge. You. Are. Limited. That's a fact so don't give more thought to it. X and Y might be better if Z and K. Yeah, sure, but that is not the case at this moment, now we've to deal with the matter at hand with what we got.
    Last edited by Zephire; 2016-10-19 at 01:58 PM.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  13. #11793
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I think it works. "I'm going to A from B. What takes the least amount of time?" Maybe I go up high to glide down, maybe I risk going through many mobs, maybe there's some kind of grappling hook way. I admit it might not be "problem solving" but you're presented with a variety of options instead of just mounting and flying. Mount flight is a no-briner effectively speaking. I kinda like that part. There's of-course times when i get frustrated and only wish for flying but mostly because I don't want to do the activity at all and that's a flaw with the activity, not flying in it self.
    Okay, I see your point. Unfortunately, I don't see any added value to my gameplay at max level. See, you experience all these things when you level, do the quests, finish your Loremaster. Afterwards, when doing world quests, you only repeat this again and again, ad nauseum. At some point, I reach this VERY SOON, you have your optimal way from point A (which is almost always a flight point due to the whistle) to point B (quest area) - and then you stop making any decisions and just execute your routine.

    This is no different from flying as you have described it, with one exception: You spend more time travelling. And this is the main problem of the scenario, the elephant in the room.

    I also want to add, that with the current travelling system I see less of the world than I would see with flight. Now, I am stuck with the flight path routine, else I will not be going anywhere. With flying mounts, I could fly in any direction.
    Last edited by mmoceb1073a651; 2016-10-19 at 01:58 PM.

  14. #11794
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I think it works. "I'm going to A from B. What takes the least amount of time?" Maybe I go up high to glide down, maybe I risk going through many mobs, maybe there's some kind of grappling hook way. I admit it might not be "problem solving" but you're presented with a variety of options instead of just mounting and flying. Mount flight is a no-briner effectively speaking. I kinda like that part. There's of-course times when i get frustrated and only wish for flying but mostly because I don't want to do the activity at all and that's a flaw with the activity, not flying in it self.
    If we talked about something like strategically placing a fixed number of beacons (crafted from rare materials) which you'd then be able to teleport to, or something similar, I'd understand. But making an optimal decision on how to navigate the terrain... choosing between, I don't know, 5 minutes with trivial mobs and potentially 3 minutes but non-trivial mobs (and if they daze you, then it could be 10 minutes)... I have a hard time finding this exciting. (To say nothing that 99% of the time it's probably just getting to the right taxi.)

  15. #11795
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Okay, I see your point. Unfortunately, I don't see any added value to my gameplay at max level. See, you experience all these things when you level, do the quests, finish your Loremaster. Afterwards, when doing world quests, you only repeat this again and again, ad nauseum. At some point, I reach this VERY SOON, you have your optimal way from point A (which is almost always a flight point due to the whistle) to point B (quest area) - and then you stop making any decisions and just execute your routine.

    This is no different from flying as you have described it, with one exception: You spend more time travelling. And this is the main problem of the scenario, the elephant in the room.

    I also want to add, that with the current travelling system I see less of the world than I would see with flight. Now, I am stuck with the flight path routine, else I will not be going anywhere. With flying mounts, I could fly in any direction.
    Yeah, true. It's very different experience from person to person and that's why I think pathfinder is a good addition. It might take to long or not to get but the thought behind it is good. Force people to integrate more with the actual world and terrain. I also think that ground travel time expose the player to world pvp more than flying do. If Blizz could solve the x-realm thing so that there's always 50% horde and 50% alliance in each zone then ground travel would be nice. Currently, I'm on a PvP server and I see very few alliance players. This was the case when leveling as well. This is super sad but also a topic for another thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    If we talked about something like strategically placing a fixed number of beacons (crafted from rare materials) which you'd then be able to teleport to, or something similar, I'd understand. But making an optimal decision on how to navigate the terrain... choosing between, I don't know, 5 minutes with trivial mobs and potentially 3 minutes but non-trivial mobs (and if they daze you, then it could be 10 minutes)... I have a hard time finding this exciting. (To say nothing that 99% of the time it's probably just getting to the right taxi.)
    I think the teleportation would be boring after a while as well^^ In your described mob scenario you lack choices. Its trivial or non-trivial only, no go to higher ground and glide, use an invis potion, engineering shenanigans etc. It'll still be repetitive but then you complete pathfinder and, voliá, you can now fly
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  16. #11796
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Yeah, true. It's very different experience from person to person and that's why I think pathfinder is a good addition. It might take to long or not to get but the thought behind it is good. Force people to integrate more with the actual world and terrain. I also think that ground travel time expose the player to world pvp more than flying do. If Blizz could solve the x-realm thing so that there's always 50% horde and 50% alliance in each zone then ground travel would be nice. Currently, I'm on a PvP server and I see very few alliance players. This was the case when leveling as well. This is super sad but also a topic for another thread!



    I think the teleportation would be boring after a while as well^^ In your described mob scenario you lack choices. Its trivial or non-trivial only, no go to higher ground and glide, use an invis potion, engineering shenanigans etc. It'll still be repetitive but then you complete pathfinder and, voliá, you can now fly
    Well, I play on a PvE server, so PvP is not an argument for me. If PvP players in the majority find that no flight is better for their gaming experience in regards to world pvp, then their servers could stay without flight just fine. I would not want to decide that for them. But in PvE, things are different. And Pathfinder would be a good solution if it would be changed in this way:
    - Only include Explorer and Loremaster - sans Suramaritan, because...
    - Reputations should be removed (and Suramaritan requires a heavy investment into Nightfallen rep, I got to exalted before finishing Suramaritan...)
    - Available from launch of the expansion, so if you want to unlock flying ASAP, then you could put your time and energy into it

    Without all the reputation hoops and hidden timegating things (did I mention that you have to kill Xavius to finish Suramaritan?), Pathfinder would be acceptable. In its current design, it's nothing more than bullying.

    Please take into account that I am quite a completionist in some regards, this means, I would be doing Explorer, Loremaster and Exalted in all available factions, anyway. My unwillingness to have reputations in Pathfinder comes from the fact that I find this part highly inappropriate. Beside that, I miss reputation mounts, no matter if flying or not. MoP did all things way better (beside double-gating of reputations, but they eventually corrected that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Yeah, true. It's very different experience from person to person and that's why I think pathfinder is a good addition. It might take to long or not to get but the thought behind it is good. Force people to integrate more with the actual world and terrain. I also think that ground travel time expose the player to world pvp more than flying do. If Blizz could solve the x-realm thing so that there's always 50% horde and 50% alliance in each zone then ground travel would be nice. Currently, I'm on a PvP server and I see very few alliance players. This was the case when leveling as well. This is super sad but also a topic for another thread!



    I think the teleportation would be boring after a while as well^^ In your described mob scenario you lack choices. Its trivial or non-trivial only, no go to higher ground and glide, use an invis potion, engineering shenanigans etc. It'll still be repetitive but then you complete pathfinder and, voliá, you can now fly
    My main character is a mage, so I have featherfall and blink / invisibility at my disposal. I don't need any shenanigans beside the whistle, but I use emerald winds + glider toy on occasion to traverse High Mountain or Stormheim. If I get dismounted, I just run further until I get out of combat, or reset combat with invisibility. This whole ordeal of no flying is nothing more than a major annoyance and a waste of time and does nothing to make me value Legion more. This expansion is somehow better than WoD, but this does not say much, and it has nothing to do with no-flying.

  17. #11797
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I think it works. "I'm going to A from B. What takes the least amount of time?" Maybe I go up high to glide down, maybe I risk going through many mobs, maybe there's some kind of grappling hook way. I admit it might not be "problem solving" but you're presented with a variety of options instead of just mounting and flying. Mount flight is a no-briner effectively speaking. I kinda like that part. There's of-course times when I get frustrated and only wish for flying but mostly because I don't want to do the activity at all and that's a flaw with the activity, not flying in it self.
    .
    You can't make an informed decision about least amount of time to go to point A or B when the map isn't an accurate representation of what the game world is like. Thanks for reinforcing my point and showing that even when designing a rat maze Blizzard still fails at the principles of maze design.

    Also flying allows you stop between points A and B to do something else so there is more decision making involved then trying to navigate terrain that is misleading to the player.

    You are essentially trying to rationalize sloppy game design by WoW devs as decision making. In actuality what is happening is that players are forced to navigate sloppy terrain and map design by WoW devs using ingenuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I actually don't understand that.

    This "you have to do all the exploring, bla bla bla" prior to getting flight is completely artificial. I mean, I get it, they have this - ludicrous - requirement because they want you to spend longer to get to your favorite types of content. Because every extra month you play is extra money for them. But no, it's not fine. It's not natural, it's completely and utterly artificial and serves noone except Blizzard's pockets.

    What, if you had flying, you wouldn't have explored everything if you are into that? And if you aren't into that, why the hell should you be forced to explore everything? Hey, let's require killing 100,000 mobs in order to hit level 110 from 109. Why not, "you have to prove you are capable of holding your weapon" or some other BS.

    It is pretty sad that things are already so screwed up that we just accept this form of extending content as fine.
    Many of us that are sitting on the sidelines have not accepted these terms or this "compromise". This scorched earth policy of WoW devs with how they are treating flight is far from over. Part 2 of legion patchfinder and maybe other parts? is not going to be something you casually complete.

    WoW devs can try all they want but players are rejecting their ground and pound vision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    The in-game flight items add a choice and a more risky play than pure flight. With the glider you'd have to go up high and aim right to land where you want to. Most of the movement can be broken with cleaver play and smart thinking. All of that is removed as soon as you add flying with mounts. Restrictions add problem solving.
    Problem solving for poor design is not game play. That shows how lazy and sloppy WoW devs are and petty for restricting flying mounts in the first place.

    That is like saying a Warlock dropping to their death in High Mountain to bypass most of the maze and then using a resurrection stone as being part of clever play and smart thinking.

    That is disturbing and sad that players have to abuse mechanics like gliders, rez stones, and other toys to navigate poorly designed terrain.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2016-10-19 at 03:04 PM.

  18. #11798
    Quote Originally Posted by Karon View Post
    By that logic there are no political factions.
    Well, Trump was a democrat for 8 years and is now the running Republican candidate *Shrug*
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  19. #11799
    @Mafic. Overwatch reddit is in "full community meltdown" or whatever that thing you like to say is if you want to see what one actually looks like.

    Nothing even close to what you describe as players reaction to no flying.

  20. #11800
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    You can't make an informed decision about least amount of time to go to point A or B when the map isn't an accurate representation of what the game world is like. Thanks for reinforcing my point and showing that even when designing a rat maze Blizzard still fails at the principles of maze design.

    Also flying allows you stop between points A and B to do something else so there is more decision making involved then trying to navigate terrain that is misleading to the player.

    You are essentially trying to rationalize sloppy game design by WoW devs as decision making. In actuality what is happening is that players are forced to navigate sloppy terrain and map design by WoW devs using ingenuity.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Many of us that are sitting on the sidelines have not accepted these terms or this "compromise". This scorched earth policy of WoW devs with how they are treating flight is far from over. Part 2 of legion patchfinder and maybe other parts? is not going to be something you casually complete.

    WoW devs can try all they want but players are rejecting their ground and pound vision.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Problem solving for poor design is not game play. That shows how lazy and sloppy WoW devs are and petty for restricting flying mounts in the first place.

    That is like saying a Warlock dropping to their death in High Mountain to bypass most of the maze and then using a resurrection stone as being part of clever play and smart thinking.

    That is disturbing and sad that players have to abuse mechanics like gliders, rez stones, and other toys to navigate poorly designed terrain.
    So you state the world is a rat maze and then say Blizzard fails at maze design, thereby stating the world is not mazelike. So which is it, is the world a maze or a failed maze and thereby not a maze at all?
    People using mechanics and ingenuity is abuse of mechanics, what? Hmmm, using a glider for its intent and gliding off things is abuse, never knew that.
    Please, please be constructive and think of what you are saying and get back on the topic of flight, not how people are traveling the world and how they are doing it wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    They won't ever do that as long as they can get away with Pathfinder. As I've said in the past, Pathfinder gives Blizzard everything that No-flying was meant to accomplish, but without actually having the face the consequences of removing flight entirely. It's not being done for the benefit of the players or the improvement of the game. It's 100% meant as a tool for profit. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either absolutely ignorant(willful or otherwise), disingenuous, or working for Blizzard.

    Read other parts of the thread if you want to see why this is true. Thimagryn's posts are especially informative.

    EDIT: For all the haters out there, please note that I said "PATHFINDER", not the removal of flight. These are two different things.
    How is this a tool for profit? You complete all these things from playing the game. Leveling up and then doing the emissary quests will get you all the rep you need for that part of the achievement, LFR bosses count for the achievement as well. Before you state time gating, again, how is that profit? Yes, I know you say that will keep people subbed and keep playing, but this implies people will just stop playing once they have flight. This is essentially what you and everyone else who quotes timegating is implying: Blizzard wants you to do all these things to stay subbed to get what you want, and now that you have what you want (this case flight) you will unsub.
    You are in fact stating this very thing, no matter how much you want to deny it. This very simple arguement works against you.

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