Why is Sylvanas becoming this?

[ManchesterWester]

We still don't know what the deal is about, I firmly believe delivering Eyir to Helya was Sylvanas' part of the deal, what she would get in return remains to be seen - Again that is just what I think. Right now nothing hypocritical about it imo

[Reckonize]

There is a clear distinction between Sylvanas the ranger general and Sylvanas the banshee, true she threw away rangers to buy time, but ultimately victory was her aim, she demanded these sacrifices, but in the end she was willing to do the exact same thing, she did it not out of selfishness. Sylvanas in undeath became her opposite in many ways but remained similar in others, but ultimately undead Sylvanas is a beast, while the ranger was a general through and through.

I feel like being "undead" changes your outlook though, sure as a Ranger General she had a set amount of goals to defend her people, in a sick twisted way, that's still what she's doing. She's basically just utilizing the tools she's given to try and make that happen and preserve the Forsaken. Is it right? No, outside looking in probably not. But if you were the ruler of a race of people, wouldn't you want to preserve them? Granted you could argue they're already dead and need to move on, but then again you could argue the same of death knights.

[ManchesterWester]

I feel like being "undead" changes your outlook though, sure as a Ranger General she had a set amount of goals to defend her people, in a sick twisted way, that's still what she's doing. She's basically just utilizing the tools she's given to try and make that happen and preserve the Forsaken. Is it right? No, outside looking in probably not. But if you were the ruler of a race of people, wouldn't you want to preserve them? Granted you could argue they're already dead and need to move on, but then again you could argue the same of death knights.

Considering she is the leader of a faction of undead, I'd say she is being extremely humane in her way of preserving them. Most necrmancers doesn't allow free will, not even death knights do, only the strongest ones possess this, also think this is a stupid way of leading an undead faction..Mass res these bitches and start qonquering!

[Combatbutler]

But on the same hand, I don't think ranger-general Sylvanas would be someone that most people would say is a "good person," either. From what we know of other sources have said of her she was vain, willful, and exceedingly proud even in life.

Those traits do not make you a bad person though, if they are under control and they were. She was rather open minded straight to the point person, the transformation Sylvanas went through as soon as she was brought back is massive.

[Soeroah]

I feel like being "undead" changes your outlook though, sure as a Ranger General she had a set amount of goals to defend her people, in a sick twisted way, that's still what she's doing. She's basically just utilizing the tools she's given to try and make that happen and preserve the Forsaken. Is it right? No, outside looking in probably not. But if you were the ruler of a race of people, wouldn't you want to preserve them? Granted you could argue they're already dead and need to move on, but then again you could argue the same of death knights.

Yeah, it's pretty well establish, IMO, that being undead warps your emotions, and you aren't necessarily aware of it.

Sylvanas' solution to her sister not fitting in in Undercity was to "painlessly" kill her so they could be happy together. That came off less as her being a monster as her being tragic- her love for her sister was twisted into this kind of darkness where her actions were monstrous even when she was trying to be how she was in life.

As for her change at Wrath, that was because she finally saw what was in store for dead Forsaken, and it wasn't the afterlife she expected. Now she doesn't want her people to go through that, and definitely not herself, but because her sense of morals are so twisted she doesn't recognise a big problem with forcing others into this existence in her attempts to keep the race safe.

[Aucald]

The theme of selfishness and self-interest extends to her when she was alive? Welcome to the military, soldiers are expendable. Even if they weren't, it's not self-interest because she did it for Quel'thalas and not herself. And in the end paid the ultimate price herself. And even in undeath if that was still her modus operandi the Legion bio wouldn't talk about her caring about the Forsaken.

There's a marked difference between the willingness to sacrifice the soldiers under one's command to achieve an objective, and outright saying that they are "arrows in our quiver." I agree her actions in life were ultimately heroic, I'm only underscoring a tendency towards the depersonalization of her allies that would later be exaggerated into seeming madness in undeath. I think Sylvanas does care about the Forsaken as a people, but only insofar as they serve her goal of protecting herself from what awaits her. Not too different from keeping the means of one's livelihood well cared for - not because you care for it specifically, but because doing otherwise would not be in your interest.

Or she attempted to steal her power as the Forsaken leaked data indicates and as such there's no hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy would be that while she offers the newly risen Forsaken the option of serving her (implying this set her apart from the legacy of the Scourge), she has no qualms at all about the spiritual enslavement of others where it concerns her goals. The same could be said about many things Sylvanas has done during her tenure as the Banshee Queen.

[Reckonize]

A matter of degree, I'd think - undeath has only emphasized and exaggerated negative traits Sylvanas has always possessed (which seems to be a common refrain for undeath in WoW). Sylvanas' emotional distance and aloofness while living made her a good general willing to make sacrifices when needed, but in undeath it has become almost psychotic or sociopathic - a willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve her aims. But on the same hand, I don't think ranger-general Sylvanas would be someone that most people would say is a "good person," either. From what we know of other sources have said of her she was vain, willful, and exceedingly proud even in life.

- - - Updated - - -



I think Sylvanas becoming Helya's replacement (either functionally or thematically) is definitely a possibility for her future. What this would mean for the Forsaken, or the Horde, I wouldn't even begin to be able to imagine.

She's essentially just going to have a Forsaken factory with taking up Helya's mantle.

[Aucald]

Those traits do not make you a bad person though, if they are under control and they were. She was rather open minded straight to the point person, the transformation Sylvanas went through as soon as she was brought back is massive.

I don't think Ranger-General Sylvanas was a bad person, just that she probably wasn't seen by many as a good one, either. There's a lot of material in High/Blood Elven lore that paints a different picture of her from the standard "Hero of Quel'thalas" portrait. Her willfulness concerning Nathanos, as well as the vanity and conceit mentioned during the flashbacks to her life in "Edge of Night." Sylvanas was always a complicated individual, even in life - part of what makes her such an interesting character now.

[Reckonize]

Yeah, it's pretty well establish, IMO, that being undead warps your emotions, and you aren't necessarily aware of it.

Sylvanas' solution to her sister not fitting in in Undercity was to "painlessly" kill her so they could be happy together. That came off less as her being a monster as her being tragic- her love for her sister was twisted into this kind of darkness where her actions were monstrous even when she was trying to be how she was in life.

As for her change at Wrath, that was because she finally saw what was in store for dead Forsaken, and it wasn't the afterlife she expected. Now she doesn't want her people to go through that, and definitely not herself, but because her sense of morals are so twisted she doesn't recognise a big problem with forcing others into this existence in her attempts to keep the race safe.

The way I look at it though, in our current situation, this doesn't mean I agree with all the actions so far, she's basically just raising the dead from their maybe resting place, maybe they were killed unjustly, if I was killed before I was ready, and someone awoken me and said "What if I said you could have another shot at protecting your loved ones from the Legion?" You best your ass I would join and follow her or the Lich King. Now that's not to say this goes for every example of her raising Forsaken, but I can understand a willingness to help and preserve her race, but a matter of how is the ultimate question I feel for her.

[Soeroah]

The way I look at it though, in our current situation, this doesn't mean I agree with all the actions so far, she's basically just raising the dead from their maybe resting place, maybe they were killed unjustly, if I was killed before I was ready, and someone awoken me and said "What if I said you could have another shot at protecting your loved ones from the Legion?" You best your ass I would join and follow her or the Lich King. Now that's not to say this goes for every example of her raising Forsaken, but I can understand a willingness to help and preserve her race, but a matter of how is the ultimate question I feel for her.

Aye, and lots of NPCs are altruistic enough to take up the offer, but it's worth remembering, also, that she has raised civilians and non-fighters while knowing full well that even doing that much to ask them essentially locks them out of their natural afterlife and. dooms them to the void.

Personally before Legion launched I was hoping the reason Sylvanas was going to Helheim was because that was where the undead souls went and she wanted to destroy it. That would've been neat.

[Reckonize]

Aye, and lots of NPCs are altruistic enough to take up the offer, but it's worth remembering, also, that she has raised civilians and non-fighters while knowing full well that even doing that much to ask them essentially locks them out of their natural afterlife and. dooms them to the void.

Personally before Legion launched I was hoping the reason Sylvanas was going to Helheim was because that was where the undead souls went and she wanted to destroy it. That would've been neat.

Yeah. Completing destroying the device that allows souls to be reborn would be huge for character development, but kind of out of her league, given the intro to Stormheim she tells the PC that she wants to preserve the race of the Forsaken and shes hunting a relic that will let her do that.

[Combatbutler]

I don't think Ranger-General Sylvanas was a bad person, just that she probably wasn't seen by many as a good one, either. There's a lot of material in High/Blood Elven lore that paints a different picture of her from the standard "Hero of Quel'thalas" portrait. Her willfulness concerning Nathanos, as well as the vanity and conceit mentioned during the flashbacks to her life in "Edge of Night." Sylvanas was always a complicated individual, even in life - part of what makes her such an interesting character now.

I'd say Sylvanas isn't really that interesting anymore, she is a sociopath to say the least but hasn't gotten her arrogance in check despite it costing her again and again, which has become tedious at this point. The recent confrontation with Genn is a prime example, she had to gloat instead of immediately shooting an arrow into his face when she reached the ledge.

[Aucald]

I'd say Sylvanas isn't really that interesting anymore, she is a sociopath to say the least but hasn't gotten her arrogance in check despite it costing her again and again, which has become tedious at this point. The recent confrontation with Genn is a prime example, she had to gloat instead of immediately shooting an arrow into his face when she reached the ledge.

To each their own taste, I appreciate the dramatic arc as Sylvanas slowly becomes what she had previously defined herself again, and how she is recreating herself in the person of Genn.

[Florena]

Aye, and lots of NPCs are altruistic enough to take up the offer, but it's worth remembering, also, that she has raised civilians and non-fighters while knowing full well that even doing that much to ask them essentially locks them out of their natural afterlife and. dooms them to the void.

Personally before Legion launched I was hoping the reason Sylvanas was going to Helheim was because that was where the undead souls went and she wanted to destroy it. That would've been neat.

Not all undead go to where she did. We see plenty of examples of us killing undead and them going to a light based afterlife for example in EPL.

[Reckonize]

Not all undead go to where she did. We see plenty of examples of us killing undead and them going to a light based afterlife for example in EPL.

I believe this is in the manor in which they're raised and whether or not how they lived and what they did with said life. It's my belief that if they were innocent then they were judged worthy for a better afterlife, if not, then to the void with them. This is subjective obviously, but I believe undead like the ones Arthas enslaved were these "saved souls" in that regard because they were not given a choice, they were made to serve. Whereas essentially Sylvanas is giving them a choice, not much of a choice, but when it's fight or die, who's honestly going to stay dead?

[Aquamonkey]

The Forsaken were only important to her as weapons to be broken against Scourge, and now as a collective bulwark against the punishment that awaits her - they are, in her own words, "arrows in her quiver."

The Forsaken were arrows in her quiver. The turning point in Edge of Night is that she doesn't see them as expendable anymore, but a valuable resource to be used wisely. Her Legion bio says this:

As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul. (Source)

[Aucald]

The Forsaken were arrows in her quiver. The turning point in Edge of Night is that she doesn't see them as expendable anymore, but a valuable resource to be used wisely. Her Legion bio says this:

As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul. (Source)

I agree, but I don't think that changes her essential usage of them - first as weapons against the Lich King, now as shields against her fate. She's still using them, and that is why they are precious to her. The piece from the bio presents the question of how far she'll go to preserve them - if her rejection of what awaits her is more important than what her present course could ultimately do to her, or force her to accept.

[Sigxy]

Will she get a cheesy redemption story *cough* illidan and Xe'ra fanfic *cough* feat.

You know, I made a crazy theory thread and wrote that I wouldn't be surprised the child of Light and Dark is going to be Illidan's body (light) and Sylvanas (dark) after that she loses her physical body and as a banshee, possess it in order to stay alive.

You tell me that wouldn't happen. Plus, I would like to see a lot of Sylvanas' fans to have mixed feelings about her 'new looks'. *snickers*

[Rathbourne]

Main problem of Forsaken is Sylvanas. Many people dont see them without Banshee Queen. Legion is great opportunity to split them.

Agreed.I for one think they have an amazing oppurtunities to do something with Alonsus Faol,The Bishop of Secrets.Perhaps make him a figure almost as revered as Sylvanas among some Forsaken.I'm not necessarily saying he should be against her,but to see a section of Forsaken not fanatically loyal to her but to someone else would have been interesting.

[Xerra]

The hypocrisy would be that while she offers the newly risen Forsaken the option of serving her (implying this set her apart from the legacy of the Scourge), she has no qualms at all about the spiritual enslavement of others where it concerns her goals. The same could be said about many things Sylvanas has done during her tenure as the Banshee Queen.

Let me tell you a story about this vast powerful nation, it was built by illegal purchases and land stolen from technologically inferior natives. Thrust into designated small areas of poor quality land as a pittance for their suffering. From there they will invite “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". Welcome to the real world where ideals are not made from good intentions but well placed skeletons in your closet.