Legion - Subtlety discussion

[PessimiStick]

dance bar swap not being instantenous: It's really annoying to cast backstab right after you used shadow dance because the bar hasnt changed yet EVEN with stance macros. It's a huge dps loss and it just feels terrible when it happens, sure you can play around it but it makes the rotation less smooth and more awkward

Feels man feeels

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike

Works 100% of the time. The only downside is that I need a separate keybind for Dance/Storm, but I got used to that pretty quick.

[shaunika123]

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike

Works 100% of the time. The only downside is that I need a separate keybind for Dance/Storm, but I got used to that pretty quick.

seems really clunky
what if i want to cheap shot?
or sap?

[PessimiStick]

seems really clunky
what if i want to cheap shot?
or sap?

I don't PvP, so the times I'd want to do that are: Never.

[shaunika123]

I don't PvP, so the times I'd want to do that are: Never.

so you dont use cheap shot in mythic+? or like for adds on xavius?
or outdoors?

it's still clunky

[PessimiStick]

so you dont use cheap shot in mythic+? or like for adds on xavius?
or outdoors?

it's still clunky

No, no, and no, respectively.

[Soisoisoi]

No, no, and no, respectively.

Why do you even play Rogue. O.o Hell, at least maybe Outlaw could suit you slightly! I have multiple variations of SD macros for SD/SS etc. It's still clunky considering for some stupid reason SD is on the GCD but doesn't cause it. often end up backstabbing without meaning to because SD didn't activate properly.

[Deleted]

Why do you even play Rogue. O.o Hell, at least maybe Outlaw could suit you slightly! I have multiple variations of SD macros for SD/SS etc. It's still clunky considering for some stupid reason SD is on the GCD but doesn't cause it. often end up backstabbing without meaning to because SD didn't activate properly.

Almost every other class has a non-resource costing stun that can be used in place of the a rogues Cheap Shot.

[Kissare]

Hello my fellow Rogues,

I have a question about the Neck - Enchants. AMR suggest me to use Mark of the Claw and Shadowcraft tells me to enchant my neck with Mark of the Trained Soldier. I currently use Mark of the hidden Satyr and my stats are:

37,77% Crit,
3,84% Haste
72,26% Mastery
3,3% Versatility

Thank you for your answer in advance.

Forgot to mention that I am a Sub rogue

[Deleted]

dance bar swap not being instantenous: It's really annoying to cast backstab right after you used shadow dance because the bar hasnt changed yet EVEN with stance macros. It's a huge dps loss and it just feels terrible when it happens, sure you can play around it but it makes the rotation less smooth and more awkward

The solution I found for this is to replicate the Stealth Bar as the same as the normal one, leaving Backstab there and have another different button outside the bar for ShadowStrike (in my case, key E). So I hit ShadowDance and spam E, which is ALWAYS mapped to SS, I no longer have any problems with the GCD of Shadow Dance.

[Soisoisoi]

Almost every other class has a non-resource costing stun that can be used in place of the a rogues Cheap Shot.

Sure they do, and that's great, but that's either one single-target stun, or one AoE stun (which is great when you want to kill a tank by syncing swing timers). Rogues have a near-spammable stun for multiple individual targets. I'll happily lose DPS to stop my tank/group getting blown up in mythic+ by mobs that channel massive damage attacks, most notably in Black Rook Hold, whilst letting the rest of my group not waste DPS on their longer GCDs than we have and gain nothing. At least we still gain CP from it.

A fun, memorable example for me:
I think week two, maybe 3, into the expansion my group didn't even realise what I was doing, I full on asked my Tank (pre-nerf Prot Warrior) if he wants me to stun them or he thinks he can handle it. He was feeling confident with his Ignore Pain. He died near instantly with IP up when the two Wrathguard mobs cast Brutal Assault basically at the same time.

An AoE stun wouldn't have cut it as they were spaced out just enough to allow one to do partial damage before the other started. Single target would mean two people doing it. Why bother when I, as a Rogue, can lock them both down with zero issues and let neither do any damage? Let the others cleave'm down and focus on DPS. They would be wasting more on GCDs than I would, too, considering there's about 3 specs with 1sec GCDs now, and we still gain in resources from doing it, they gain nothing.

[ymirsson]

An AoE stun wouldn't have cut it as they were spaced out just enough to allow one to do partial damage before the other started. Single target would mean two people doing it. Why bother when I, as a Rogue, can lock them both down with zero issues and let neither do any damage? Let the others cleave'm down and focus on DPS. They would be wasting more on GCDs than I would, too, considering there's about 3 specs with 1sec GCDs now, and we still gain in resources from doing it, they gain nothing.

You may gain CP, but still don't do a SS instead. Using CC instead of a damage skill is a loss, no matter who does it.
Maybe a rogue loses less damage then someone else, but i'm not smart enough to calculate that now.

[Soisoisoi]

You may gain CP, but still don't do a SS instead. Using CC instead of a damage skill is a loss, no matter who does it.
Maybe a rogue loses less damage then someone else, but i'm not smart enough to calculate that now.

Chances are it'll be us losing less than them when you consider we still gain CP and energy back, and we only have a 1sec GCD. It just makes it easier. Either way that still doesn't alter the fact any Rogue worth their salt should be using their utility anywhere they can. Be it out in the world or in a raid.

[RobertoCarlos]

Chances are it'll be us losing less than them when you consider we still gain CP and energy back, and we only have a 1sec GCD. It just makes it easier. Either way that still doesn't alter the fact any Rogue worth their salt should be using their utility anywhere they can. Be it out in the world or in a raid.

Agreed. Just have to go back to basics. A dead dps = no dps. Let alone talking about just one example like using kidney shot in black rook hold on the goblin demons that enrage. That can legit save a tank and possibly the run in high mythic + Difficulty. Where as using those combo points for another finisher in the context of the groups total damage could be very little.

[ymirsson]

Im not saying one should not do it. I'm just resenting the assumption that rogues automatically lose the least amount of DPS.

[Deleted]

Im not saying one should not do it. I'm just resenting the assumption that rogues automatically lose the least amount of DPS.

Ofc we lose the dmg but isnt a dungeon teamplay?
With prey on the weak 3/4 other people damaging gaining 10% increased dmg, the tank is safe and you gain resource. So I guess the damage output would be more in total for the group then the shadowstrikes in total

In m+ while I'm not better at trash dps then our FrostDk/DH/Firemage etc. I support with best AE / cleave I can while trying to reduce the dmg of dangerous enemies (disk throwes, elementals, stunhpshoutguy, knife juggler ex.) And stunlock priokilltargets that need to drop fast.
Really smooth up to 10+. Thats why I like sub so much because you can actually HELP in bad situations to survive and not just have to look while we're dying. Utility ♡

[shaunika123]

Ofc we lose the dmg but isnt a dungeon teamplay?
With prey on the weak 3/4 other people damaging gaining 10% increased dmg, the tank is safe and you gain resource. So I guess the damage output would be more in total for the group then the shadowstrikes in total

In m+ while I'm not better at trash dps then our FrostDk/DH/Firemage etc. I support with best AE / cleave I can while trying to reduce the dmg of dangerous enemies (disk throwes, elementals, stunhpshoutguy, knife juggler ex.) And stunlock priokilltargets that need to drop fast.
Really smooth up to 10+. Thats why I like sub so much because you can actually HELP in bad situations to survive and not just have to look while we're dying. Utility ♡

to be fair outlaw has a ranged stun, a free CS and gouge :P

[milkbonez]

Ofc we lose the dmg but isnt a dungeon teamplay?
With prey on the weak 3/4 other people damaging gaining 10% increased dmg, the tank is safe and you gain resource. So I guess the damage output would be more in total for the group then the shadowstrikes in total

In m+ while I'm not better at trash dps then our FrostDk/DH/Firemage etc. I support with best AE / cleave I can while trying to reduce the dmg of dangerous enemies (disk throwes, elementals, stunhpshoutguy, knife juggler ex.) And stunlock priokilltargets that need to drop fast.
Really smooth up to 10+. Thats why I like sub so much because you can actually HELP in bad situations to survive and not just have to look while we're dying. Utility ♡

M+ is all about AOE trash dps for making time. I've brought my sub spec on 10+ tyrannical/fortified where we're just cc'ing, not trying to make time and ST'ing everything, but I can't imagine trying to take it to get multiple chests over my outlaw weapon where cleave is necessary. Aoe stuns that other classes bring (monk/shams come to mind) are just strictly better than running around kidney shotting or using your SD's to cheap shot...

[lolpve]

dance bar swap not being instantenous: It's really annoying to cast backstab right after you used shadow dance because the bar hasnt changed yet EVEN with stance macros. It's a huge dps loss and it just feels terrible when it happens, sure you can play around it but it makes the rotation less smooth and more awkward

Feels man feeels

Since wotlk every sub rogue worth a damn has had dance macro'd to all stealth abilities including sap and cheap shot. Your bread and butter macros should be dance>shadowstrike, dance>cheapshot, dance>sap, on top of having those abilities on normal buttons, a macro for sap spamming and having sap macro'd with vanish.

Rogue in pvp is all about macros, you should never be manually using shadowdance.

[Deleted]

Since wotlk every sub rogue worth a damn has had dance macro'd to all stealth abilities including sap and cheap shot. Your bread and butter macros should be dance>shadowstrike, dance>cheapshot, dance>sap, on top of having those abilities on normal buttons, a macro for sap spamming and having sap macro'd with vanish.

Rogue in pvp is all about macros, you should never be manually using shadowdance.

Wont work in PVE tho, you will burn through Shadow Dance charges while you overlap their duration.

[Deleted]

M+ is all about AOE trash dps for making time. I've brought my sub spec on 10+ tyrannical/fortified where we're just cc'ing, not trying to make time and ST'ing everything, but I can't imagine trying to take it to get multiple chests over my outlaw weapon where cleave is necessary. Aoe stuns that other classes bring (monk/shams come to mind) are just strictly better than running around kidney shotting or using your SD's to cheap shot...

I had no problems at 7/8/9 to get 2 chests as Sub even though I admit with Outlaw it would have been easier. But we're a fix group with 1 AE stun from DH and AE freeze from our FrostDk. These 2 do the trash dmg and we rotate the stuns. Try mass stunning on BRH +11 and enjoy stun immunity without a chance to interrupt the stun with the 50% hp shout afterwards. Or with a melee group the blade dance.

I know that outlaw is alot better at trash dps and also has good utilty but if you dislike the specc like me Sub is also a viable specc.
Currently hoping for a good +12 stone to progress further

€: everything below 7 Is so weak you can do 3 Chests too we carry as Sub+FrostDK+RNDCarryDD often so dunno about that