There is no reason to gate the release of LFR anymore.

[Jtbrig7390]

And what do I get for finishing a Mythic Raid? Epics I can't use in PvP without severe nerfs. Gear I will trash when the next content patch is released. And people running around the game with similar looking gear but nowhere near the effort.

Anyway, I don't seek help I seek a vanilla wow server. I accepted that this game has become Hello Kitty Island.

Yes it does devalue the game, and also could turn into a system where the only way to group with people is to pay real money or gold.

You get titles,mounts and so on that is exclusive to that mode.

Also I find it funny that you admit that buying runs devalues the game and yet....people bought runs in classic as well. Buying runs has been apart of wow since day 1.

Its not new.

[Snuffleupagus]

No it doesn't, it doesn't even come close to devaluing anything.

A Mythic raider's efforts is rewarded by finishing the mythic raid, Not because Joe Blow did it on easy mode. Also its a fucken video game if a feature in it really hurts your ego that much then maybe you should seek help.

Does someone buying a carry also devalue raiders? If not then your a hypocrite.

Maybe if you'd rather play WoW for 12 hours a day and have nothing to show for it, you should seek help.

If you constantly end up in bad groups, maybe it's not the groups that are the issue.

Get a job. Learn to spell. And stop with the false equivalencies and broken logic. You have no idea how an MMORPG actually goes together, and every suggestion you make serves to be more devisive and exclusionary that the last.

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You get titles,mounts and so on that is exclusive to that mode.

Also I find it funny that you admit that buying runs devalues the game and yet....people bought runs in classic as well. Buying runs has been apart of wow since day 1.

Its not new.

Buying carries means that:

- A group has the skill to carry.
- A buyer has played the game enough to be that rich.

None of this involves trivialising difficulties and segmenting the game.

[Otimus]

People who refuse to take part of real raiding are playing a game that isn't meant for them. That is fundamentally what makes WoW. By having LFR you're ruining the experience for everyone else who does raid. That's one of the reasons I don't play WoW no more, and why I seek Vanilla WoW. Too much crap in the modern game that ruins the experience. And it shows cause according to WoW Census it's down to 2.5 million. Which BTW was 4.4 million mid September.

For what? To have people go through a raid like a in game Let's Play? I have a better soltuion to LFR gating, just remove LFR. Problem solved, go do Normal raiding which is still pretty much retard proof.

You're not wrong, but the problem is, is that probably something close to 75% of the WoW playerbase is playing the "wrong game". At some point, something had to give, or Blizzard would have to admit that they're just taking advantage of an oblivious playerbase to please a small portion.

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The problem though is that LFR was never really supposed to be a "rewarding" experience. You aren't supposed to feel all that accomplished and your character doesn't really get more powerful gear from it.

I think LFR is fine and is in a good place. If you have already done NM and are able to do that... I'm not sure why you care so much about LFR?

Is it the drop in/drop out convenience?

For me personally, it's just because I have to have "permission" to do it, if I don't make my own group, be judged by said group, and be at the whim of one angry person over any possible mistake to be insulted, judged, kicked, and treated like human garbage for it if I didn't make my own group.

Trust me, most vocal advocates of LFR don't want easy content. They just want queuable content where they're not stressed out about either leading a group or being harshly judged by others. It's a lot of social pressure I don't think people understand.

Doubly for me, I have pretty severe social anxiety. Yes, in a game. Oh no! Let the insults fly about how I shouldn't be playing, or some such. (Not directed at you, just people in general and how they view these things.)


In any event, I think most content is in a fine place. I don't even mind LFR's gating (even if I think it's pointless now).

[Vash The Stampede]

You get titles,mounts and so on that is exclusive to that mode.

I liked it better when the loot and the experience was exclusive, like it used to be.

Also I find it funny that you admit that buying runs devalues the game and yet....people bought runs in classic as well. Buying runs has been apart of wow since day 1.

Its not new.

You brought up bought runs that has nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game. If players are selling runs for money, then that's something only Blizzard can stop. Moreover, this is a community problem, not a game feature like LFR. If the glove fits, you do not acquit.

You're not wrong, but the problem is, is that probably something close to 75% of the WoW playerbase is playing the "wrong game". At some point, something had to give, or Blizzard would have to admit that they're just taking advantage of an oblivious playerbase to please a small portion.

This is something that wasn't an issue in Vanilla and TBC. You can't please the 75% and the 25%. Considering how many people left the game, maybe it's time to get like Dark Souls and teach players to Git Gud.

[Otimus]

The Queue is hated by those who participate in LFR. Particularly the dps who have to wait extremely long queue times. You will never get LFR to queue you with competent players, cause no raid will ever finish for those who are WoW challenged. Little known fact, but you can queue up with friends.

People like me hate LFR cause it devalues raiders efforts. You know, the people who take the time to learn to play their class better, and boss mechanics and what not.

It's this. This photo perfectly illustrates the core issue with LFR. There's a reason why people call it a raid for the "SPECIAL" WoW player.

How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?

I've never understood that. Or even in single player games, for that matter. I mean, it's the same logical principal, and it seems exclusively a matter only MMO players complain about, and by and large, MMO's are not the most challenging games out there. They mostly require social skills and following rote mechanics and having the proper group composition. Enemies don't even have AI. So why in the world is this attitude exclusive to MMO's?

[Vash The Stampede]

How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?

The MMO market is mostly made up of WoW clones. They pretty much copy the same bad ideas that Blizzard has. Also people tend to play only 1 MMO at a time. So it's hard to get experience with other MMO's.

I've never understood that. Or even in single player games, for that matter. I mean, it's the same logical principal, and it seems exclusively a matter only MMO players complain about, and by and large, MMO's are not the most challenging games out there. They mostly require social skills and following rote mechanics and having the proper group composition. Enemies don't even have AI. So why in the world is this attitude exclusive to MMO's?

#1 Everquest which I never played but heard it was hard. Like much harder than Vanilla WoW.
#2 Vanilla WoW, which makes modern WoW look like Hello Kitty Island.

These two games set a lasting standard for players. If you never played Vanilla, you can expect a MMO to be a game that mostly requires Social Skills, and follow mechanics. Back then it took skill. If you didn't have skill then it took getting to know people who had gear or skill.

Pretty much like this.

[Otimus]

The MMO market is mostly made up of WoW clones. They pretty much copy the same bad ideas that Blizzard has. Also people tend to play only 1 MMO at a time. So it's hard to get experience with other MMO's.


#1 Everquest which I never played but heard it was hard. Like much harder than Vanilla WoW.
#2 Vanilla WoW, which makes modern WoW look like Hello Kitty Island.

These two games set a lasting standard for players. If you never played Vanilla, you can expect a MMO to be a game that mostly requires Social Skills, and follow mechanics. Back then it took skill. If you didn't have skill then it took getting to know people who had gear or skill.

Pretty much like this.

....I think you misunderstood what I said.

"How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?"

As in... why is this a problem ONLY with MMO's, and not OTHER genres?

You'd never see someone say that someone who killed a boss in some co-op shooter on easy vs some other guy who killed them on the hardest difficulty is devaluing the experience. It's literally only a complaint you ever hear in the MMO genre. Why? It's like you halfway read what I even said or something

[Jtbrig7390]

Maybe if you'd rather play WoW for 12 hours a day and have nothing to show for it, you should seek help.

My enjoyment is all I need to show for it.

Buying carries means that:

- A group has the skill to carry.
- A buyer has played the game enough to be that rich.

None of this involves trivialising difficulties and segmenting the game.

The bolded has never been true, you have always been able to buy gold and you can do it legit now.

Hell I can make 20k a day easy just logging in for a couple mins at a time. Kinda how I am sitting on 10 wow tokens (Max u can hold) and enough gold to buy a couple more.

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I liked it better when the loot and the experience was exclusive, like it used to be.

So never then? Because anyone could buy there way to that experience.

this is a community problem, not a game feature like LFR. If the glove fits, you do not acquit.

So getting gold and trading isn't a feature of the game, that's news to me.

[Snuffleupagus]

My enjoyment is all I need to show for it.

Not being a grub and getting a job would be better.

[Deleted]

"How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?"

As in... why is this a problem ONLY with MMO's, and not OTHER genres?

You'd never see someone say that someone who killed a boss in some co-op shooter on easy vs some other guy who killed them on the hardest difficulty is devaluing the experience. It's literally only a complaint you ever hear in the MMO genre. Why? It's like you halfway read what I even said or something

For me, personally, what makes me mad is that LFR gives the impression to new players that they cleared the game.
You fight the last boss, you get epics, you end the game.
New players have no idea of what raiding is all about because LFR have big, huge, enormous arrows pointing at it sayin "DO ME" "DO ME".
And because of that they never feel the urge to do a normal raid.

Why would a new player want to do a normal raid? Item level...a number...yay. That doesn't leave new players wet or even close to nerdgasm.
What i am trying to say is that LFR makes new players quit the game sooner without any kind of desire to do a normal raid.

Normal raids should be queueable to at least make the noobs try a normal raid for once in their lives...but with LFR enabled i don't even know if they would have the desire to try it. Why would they? item level? Bah.

[Vash The Stampede]

....I think you misunderstood what I said.

"How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?"

As in... why is this a problem ONLY with MMO's, and not OTHER genres?

You'd never see someone say that someone who killed a boss in some co-op shooter on easy vs some other guy who killed them on the hardest difficulty is devaluing the experience. It's literally only a complaint you ever hear in the MMO genre. Why? It's like you halfway read what I even said or something

I didn't understand what you wrote the first time. For me, I've never played those type of games. A game you're talking about would be Destiny, and Destiny isn't on PC. Co-oP is relatively niche market, and really you play that with real life friends. Difficulty in games in still something being debated as Dark Souls proves that you can still have a hard game that people like to play, if done right. In many ways Dark Souls kinda took some design elements from Vanilla WoW. Or is that Demon Souls?

Probably more importantly a MMO game is naturally competitive. Players want to feel special because they literally have a huge audience. A world full of people who are judging your every action, both good and bad. So if you did something amazing, you really want people to know with a mount or gear. A person walking around with Tier 2 armor in Iron Forge will grab attention. Today not so much, as people are still figuring out what color armor you have means what raid difficulty you did. When everyone runs around the game with epics that they were rewarded for attending a raid, it does devalue that achievement. Sure you could link achievements and point to your ilevel, but it doesn't have the same effect.

[Mister Cheese]

LFR is gated because blizzard wants to prolong people subbing as long as possible. Sure, people can resub when the last wing is released but most people don't do that. They usually wait it out, do other stuff.

[david0925]

They gate it because they don't want people to unsub after week 1 of content release. Yes a lot of people think they beat the game after LFR.

Any other reasons are honestly excuses.

[bufferunderrun]

The Queue is hated by those who participate in LFR. Particularly the dps who have to wait extremely long queue times. You will never get LFR to queue you with competent players, cause no raid will ever finish for those who are WoW challenged. Little known fact, but you can queue up with friends.

People like me hate LFR cause it devalues raiders efforts. You know, the people who take the time to learn to play their class better, and boss mechanics and what not.

LFR queue are a non issue, they are no biggest than the time you lose finding or creating a pug, second lfr don't devalue anything by following that line of reasoning then exudus or method have the right to complain that their world first effort are devalued by the bunch of peoples who clear the raid after them once enough gear has been accumulated.
What peoples hate is accessibility, lfr being automated is a fair and square system not influenced by the player that is what peoples hate.

And what do I get for finishing a Mythic Raid? Epics I can't use in PvP without severe nerfs. Gear I will trash when the next content patch is released. And people running around the game with similar looking gear but nowhere near the effort.

Anyway, I don't seek help I seek a vanilla wow server. I accepted that this game has become Hello Kitty Island.

Yes it does devalue the game, and also could turn into a system where the only way to group with people is to pay real money or gold.

.
Lets see:
1) Gear that is best in game
2) Higher chance of legs drop
3) Higher chance to warforge or titanforge
4) Titles
5) Mounts with 100% drop rate
6) Special boss phases with additional story
7) Realm First announced to the entire server spamming the chat
8) Special reward that is not available to lfr like doing the meta achievement and so another mount, special skin for artifact etc.

The reward is more than enough so let me see are lfr player entitled or some special snowflake who are too greedy?

[kary]

LFR queue are a non issue, they are no biggest than the time you lose finding or creating a pug, second lfr don't devalue anything by following that line of reasoning then exudus or method have the right to complain that their world first effort are devalued by the bunch of peoples who clear the raid after them once enough gear has been accumulated.
What peoples hate is accessibility, lfr being automated is a fair and square system not influenced by the player that is what peoples hate.


.
Lets see:
1) Gear that is best in game
2) Higher chance of legs drop
3) Higher chance to warforge or titanforge
4) Titles
5) Mounts with 100% drop rate
6) Special boss phases with additional story
7) Realm First announced to the entire server spamming the chat
8) Special reward that is not available to lfr like doing the meta achievement and so another mount, special skin for artifact etc.

The reward is more than enough so let me see are lfr player entitled or some special snowflake who are too greedy?

Yes, you are still entitled special snowflakes who are too greedy.
Do you have to put in any time to clear LFR? no.
Do you have to put in time and effort to do mythic?

[Deleted]

Social interaction? Have you seen how so called "real" raiders have interacted in this thread? xD Raiders themselves are one of the issues a lot of people have with getting into the "real" versions.

people are issue not raiders per se.

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Right. As if people will magically be more respectable and friendly to others in higher difficulties.

You think people only socialize in raids? That is just stupid thinking from Blizzard and from people who follow that mantra.

The problem with Blizzard is as you said, they want more people in organized raids groups. Why? Maybe that is so they want to make raids when the majority probably does not want it.

Do you always make imaginary accusations to point at someone? Where did I ever say people only socialize in raids?

[Deleted]

Difficulty in games in still something being debated as Dark Souls proves that you can still have a hard game that people like to play, if done right.

This is not a very good example for answering what he was asking, but i will use it as well.
I play dark souls, the three of them, i love those games, why? INSTANT raiding, i just start the game and right into raiding, whenever i want, and as much time as i want because it is a SOLO game.
I kill all the bosses without summoning help neither players nor NPCs, if other people summon other players or NPCs i do not care, because it has zero influence in my enjoyment of the game.
But wow and all MMORPGs, it is a very different beast, what other players do has huge impact over my enjoyment of the game.
Raiding for example, you need another 19 players, that must be as invested as you in what you are doing;
Just imagine you belong to a server where you are the only one interested in PVE, you can not do raiding, not Mythics, not even world quests (some of them).
So in sort, your enjoyment of the game is severely affected by the behaviour of the other players, it is even affected by how populated or not is your server.
That´s why some people think that if LFR ceased to exist, the pool of raiders would be bigger for the other difficulties, and that is the main reason why people care about what other people do or do not in a MMORPG, but not in co-op mutiplayer games, and specially not in single player games with multiplayer capabilties such as Dark souls or even Diablo.

[Armourboy]

You are a fool if you really think they were trying to destroy any category of players. The only time the gear has been part of the progression path was in DS due to the set bonuses and 3 gem slots.

They weren't trying, Blizzard didn't set around and say " hey how can we screw the largest bulk of our players". Blizzard doesn't try and do lots of things that end up happening, doesn't mean they don't happen all the same. You also seem to be forgetting an entire expansion in your progression path, you know the expansion that had the largest amount of crying about LFR being mandatory? Or are we just going to act like MoP didn't have full tier sets, weapons, legendaries, all with powerful set bonuses and those same gem slots.

[caervek]

I hate LFR with a passion, i will never enter LFR willingly

1-2-Tier bonuses coming for you! :P

[Armourboy]

Yes, you are still entitled special snowflakes who are too greedy.
Do you have to put in any time to clear LFR? no.
Do you have to put in time and effort to do mythic?

Last I looked you didn't walk in the front door and receive a basket full or loot. You still do the content one way or another and you are rewarded accordingly based on the difficulty of that content, well outside of the insanely rare RNG upgrade that can happen anywhere else in the game as well.