[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Rarch]

Hey guys, got some great advice earlier for helping my M+ tanking. I was only planning on doing M+ with my Paladin because it's an alt, but my guild needed me to tank Normal last night, so I said fine.

We cleared everything pretty much fine, but wiped a couple times on Xavius because he was just shredding me the whole fight. I only have about 13% Haste, because I can't get gear with Haste to drop for me, so I know that's a bit of an issue, but I thought I'd try and see if there's something I can focus on that I have control over. My talent setup was 2/2/3/1/1/2/1.

To give an idea, in 2 min of me actively tanking Xavius, I used 13 SotR, so I think that's just under 60% up-time, and they were all in Consecration. Is that significantly low up-time for my haste? Even with SotR up, though, I felt like I was just getting chunked. What am I missing with Paladin tanking? Am I supposed to always have a CD running? If so, what's the most efficient way to cycle them?

I know Paladin tanks aren't bad, so I know I'm the problem, not the class, but I can't help that I've felt disappointed with it since I hit 110. It seems like such a simple class, so I constantly feel like I'm missing something, but I can't see what it could be.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, got some great advice earlier for helping my M+ tanking. I was only planning on doing M+ with my Paladin because it's an alt, but my guild needed me to tank Normal last night, so I said fine.

We cleared everything pretty much fine, but wiped a couple times on Xavius because he was just shredding me the whole fight. I only have about 13% Haste, because I can't get gear with Haste to drop for me, so I know that's a bit of an issue, but I thought I'd try and see if there's something I can focus on that I have control over. My talent setup was 2/2/3/1/1/2/1.

To give an idea, in 2 min of me actively tanking Xavius, I used 13 SotR, so I think that's just under 60% up-time, and they were all in Consecration. Is that significantly low up-time for my haste? Even with SotR up, though, I felt like I was just getting chunked. What am I missing with Paladin tanking? Am I supposed to always have a CD running? If so, what's the most efficient way to cycle them?

I know Paladin tanks aren't bad, so I know I'm the problem, not the class, but I can't help that I've felt disappointed with it since I hit 110. It seems like such a simple class, so I constantly feel like I'm missing something, but I can't see what it could be.

I find xavius does the most tank damage to me out of all the EM bosses, so you're not alone there. I personally use holy shield for it on heroic and i use all the external cooldowns from healers regularly. i find most dangerous part is when a big add is up, try to chain cooldowns for that.

[Veyloris]

It might help if you linked logs so people could look more in depth into your play. Xavius hits reasonably hard until you hit decent gear levels, but your stat priority isn't going to be too important in terms of living. AFAIK, our stats are fairly close together for survivability. It's definitely better to have more haste, but it's less of an issue to be poorly itemized that it has been in the past. What trinkets are you running? What path did you take for artifact? There's a lot of things that could affect your ability to stay alive.

[Rarch]

It might help if you linked logs so people could look more in depth into your play. Xavius hits reasonably hard until you hit decent gear levels, but your stat priority isn't going to be too important in terms of living. AFAIK, our stats are fairly close together for survivability. It's definitely better to have more haste, but it's less of an issue to be poorly itemized that it has been in the past. What trinkets are you running? What path did you take for artifact? There's a lot of things that could affect your ability to stay alive.

Yeah I can't really link the logs cause I think you have to be given access. We're not some fancy elite guild, so there's not much reason for that, but I think the guild leader just followed some guide on setting them up and that's how it got done. What other things do you generally analyze when looking at logs, other than SotR up-time?

I have a Str/Vers stat stick and an 865 Parjesh Medallion for my trinkets. I have all the artifact traits except the disconnected triangle on the right side and the last gold trait over on the right, and I also don't have the very bottom one.

[Deleted]

Yeah I can't really link the logs cause I think you have to be given access. We're not some fancy elite guild, so there's not much reason for that, but I think the guild leader just followed some guide on setting them up and that's how it got done. What other things do you generally analyze when looking at logs, other than SotR up-time?

I have a Str/Vers stat stick and an 865 Parjesh Medallion for my trinkets. I have all the artifact traits except the disconnected triangle on the right side and the last gold trait over on the right, and I also don't have the very bottom one.

SotR uptime isnt as important as whats actually happening when you press SotR (if your pressing judgement on cd, there isnt really anything you can do to improve uptime) - a lot of players dont pool them and just press them on cd, which usually ends with you taking next to no dmg for a while & suddenly when you run out of SotR, you take tons of dmg - spacing out & pooling for high dmg goes a long long way - tanking is firstly about staying alive, not about taking least dmg over the course of the fight.

One thing you can do is look at your dmg spikes and why they are occuring and if you maybe had a cd up that you could have used.

Im just gonna assume that your two-tanking and switch at 4 stacks.
in that case i would mostly facetank + heal vs auto attacks till ~2 stacks from debuff (not useing cd's and only using SotR if i would otherwise overcap) - obvisouly if you drop low (<40%) you should sotr to survive next 2 hits even without heal.
then dending on what cd's are up you can use:
- Spellwarding as soon as u get 3 stacks and it should be up until you can get a dispel ~4 stacks
- guardian with 3 should last till 4 stacks and then u can cover with one sotr till dispel
- facetank and LotP first time you drop - 2nd time on low hp LoH and then just use to cover with sotr as you would usually
- off cd's
- argent defender when you drop to cover for at least 1 melee hit

basically juggle your cd's and use deffensives whenever you expect high damage - i like to hold on to argent defender in case i mess up and have nothing else ready, simply because of the cheat death mechanic that will pretty much always give you (& your healers) at least annother swing to react

holding on to LotP if you high hp and waiting for the next swing to hit + using heal pot if your in danger of dieing to next melee attack go a long way when you want to save your cd's for those 3rd and 4th stack of debuff.

if auto attacks are your biggest problem block chance from artifact tree + darkmoon card (assuming you can spare the gold) help a lot.
your also missing out on a lot of stats due to having no enchants - armor proc on neck reduces pys dmg a ton when its up

rereading I realise this is pretty general advice, but without logs, its pretty hard to get an idea of your playstyle

[Rarch]

rereading I realise this is pretty general advice, but without logs, its pretty hard to get an idea of your playstyle

No this is great, thanks. I do generally keep 1 charge of SotR on CD and space them out when I want/need to use more. The CD breakdown you gave was really cool cause by reading it I can tell I'm definitely being too stingy with my CD's, and I'm hardly ever utilizing Spellwarding, which is definitely a huge mistake on my part.

I'll go for the block chance next, I think that's where I was going to go anyway, but now I'll make sure I pay attention to that. I probably don't want to dish out for the DMC cause it's an alt, but if they really need me to tank a lot, I'll consider it.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

[Corvolicious]

Hey guys, i've a huge problem. About 2 weeks ago, my logs are better than now. and I don't know why.
I can't post logs here, but, I think I need 2 good trinkets. My amory is Corvolicious from realm Azralon - and I'm taking so much damage. Ok, when I use some big CD, I can handle almost everything. But, using only SotR, I almost die sometimes. So, i'm looking for the HORN (1st boss HoV) and the Shard (last boss ARCWAY) . Maybe the gobblet (Il'gnoth). Are those a good option? What can I do to optimize my survivability? What about my stats? thanks for your time!

[Deleted]

I maybe well off the mark here so don't take it too serious if I am, but, Have you just replaced gear with +ilvl just because its +ilvl without paying attention to the stats?

[Deleted]

Think you are right, cause I have almost done the same as Corvolicious. Everything shifted from Haste/Vers to mastery as my main stat and I am feeling the consequences.

Hijacking his question to add my own as well. I understand that Vers/Haste > Master > Crit when it comes to survival. If you have failed like me what is a comfortable HP pool to have for starting mythic EN, and doing around Mythic+10s? (my usual way of thinking is that over 200-300 Stam is worth the upgrade and that might be wrong)

[Corvolicious]

So, I'm trying to use differents talents for M+, or just some fight at EN. (the same as Blueprìnt from realm Frostmourn). Well, maybe our 'HotP/LotP' is like a DEF CD for Blizzard, idk. Maybe we have to lose some HP. I dunno, but i'll run some M+ today, lookin for those trinkets and I'll test them. At warcraftlogs, Blueprìnt is the best at all, and, he's using 2% VERS; 26 CRIT; 23 HASTE; 14 MASTERY, using Memento and Chrono Shard. And if u see his logs, he has 100% Damage/Boss Damage and 10% Tank Suvibability. (Nythendra M) 12% at Ursoc! And, he still have the best logs for Pally Prot. So, should i give up to care about it, and just do the best DPS I can?

[Angusmcdowel]

what is a comfortable HP pool to have for starting mythic EN

I think I started mythic progression at around 2.8mil hp, something like 860 ilvl.

So, I'm trying to use differents talents for M+, or just some fight at EN. (the same as Blueprìnt from realm Frostmourn). Well, maybe our 'HotP/LotP' is like a DEF CD for Blizzard, idk. Maybe we have to lose some HP. I dunno, but i'll run some M+ today, lookin for those trinkets and I'll test them. At warcraftlogs, Blueprìnt is the best at all, and, he's using 2% VERS; 26 CRIT; 23 HASTE; 14 MASTERY, using Memento and Chrono Shard. And if u see his logs, he has 100% Damage/Boss Damage and 10% Tank Suvibability. (Nythendra M) 12% at Ursoc! And, he still have the best logs for Pally Prot. So, should i give up to care about it, and just do the best DPS I can?

Unless you really know what you're doing, it is not recommended that you gear that way. You want to stack haste/vers where possible. If you're problem is that you are taking too much damage and dying, then Memento and Chrono Shard are not the trinkets you want. BiS defensive trinkets are gonna be DMC: Immortality and Goblet of Nightmarish Ichor.

[Marrilaife]

At warcraftlogs, Blueprìnt is the best at all, and, he's using 2% VERS; 26 CRIT; 23 HASTE; 14 MASTERY, using Memento and Chrono Shard. And if u see his logs, he has 100% Damage/Boss Damage and 10% Tank Suvibability. (Nythendra M) 12% at Ursoc! And, he still have the best logs for Pally Prot. So, should i give up to care about it, and just do the best DPS I can?

"Best logs" are sorted by default by dps, so obviously a tank going full out dps is gonna be top ranked. Unless you start checking other subcategories.

Unless you really know what you're doing, it is not recommended that you gear that way. You want to stack haste/vers where possible. If you're problem is that you are taking too much damage and dying, then Memento and Chrono Shard are not the trinkets you want. BiS defensive trinkets are gonna be DMC: Immortality and Goblet of Nightmarish Ichor.

Thing is best tanks know what they're doing and have healers that also know what they're doing, therefore they can run around with chrono shards and horns of valor, the only problem is people copy them blindly not accounting for the fact they might not be as good as them in dodging stuff, mitigating damage at correct moments and coordinating with their healers.

It's very deceptive to just copy the best tanks (for whom content is already farm status for awhile).

In the average-guild scenario where you're slowly progressing through the content very rarely tank dps matters while tank getting gibbed randomly matters a lot. Guilds that aren't progressing at a blazing speed usually can squeeze necessary dps out of another source (usually that source is "dps raid member not being dead to a raid mechanic").

For mythic+ you can test some more dps oriented builds because they seem to be more about coordinating stuns and damage reduction cooldowns than just smoothing damage over long course of time.


P.S. Good to know the ichor trinket is of that much value, I got a nice upgraded roll on it last week and wasn't sure how good it is, now that you say it's one of the best for survivability gonna stick to it.

Was trying to experiment with absorb clicky trinkets to prevent random gibs, have 2 from nelth's lair and 1 from arcway, not sure which one of them is deemed best?

[Angusmcdowel]

"Best logs" are sorted by default by dps, so obviously a tank going full out dps is gonna be top ranked. Unless you start checking other subcategories.

Thing is best tanks know what they're doing and have healers that also know what they're doing, therefore they can run around with chrono shards and horns of valor, the only problem is people copy them blindly not accounting for the fact they might not be as good as them in dodging stuff, mitigating damage at correct moments and coordinating with their healers.

It's very deceptive to just copy the best tanks (for whom content is already farm status for awhile).

^this right here. Hell, on progression I was running RP and DMC trink for most fights. Now that we're in full farm mode, I'm using Seraphim and double dps trinkets because it's more fun that way. But you still need to be smart about it, and know when you can go ham and when you can't.

P.S. Good to know the ichor trinket is of that much value, I got a nice upgraded roll on it last week and wasn't sure how good it is, now that you say it's one of the best for survivability gonna stick to it.

Was trying to experiment with absorb clicky trinkets to prevent random gibs, have 2 from nelth's lair and 1 from arcway, not sure which one of them is deemed best?

Goblet is quite good actually. The vers proc is huge, and has a pretty good uptime, usually 30-40%. You can play around to maximize that as well. If another ichor spawns while you already have the buff, you can inch away from it to keep from absorbing it right away, then move into it when the old buff is about to fall off. Just be careful, because they don't stick around forever, and will despawn if you keep avoiding it. You have about 5 seconds or so to absorb it once it spawns.

[Marrilaife]

Hell, on progression I was running RP and DMC trink for most fights.

For the love of me can't figure out which trinket is "RP", unless you meant the talent righteous protector.

Anyway what other trinkets except ichor / DMC you'd recommend for survivability?

[Angusmcdowel]

For the love of me can't figure out which trinket is "RP", unless you meant the talent righteous protector.

Anyway what other trinkets except ichor / DMC you'd recommend for survivability?

RP = Righteous Protector

Honestly a lot of the 'tank' trinkets are underwhelming. If you can get a fairly high ilvl str/haste or str/vers stat stick, that's honestly a decent option. The Withered Jim trinket seems all around pretty decent as well, it's way over budget on stats. I think I was using an 880 Phantasmal Echo before the Goblet dropped for me. It's a huge amount of haste, but the proc is super lame, and is never there when you actually need it, due to the way our health yo-yos frequently.

[Deleted]

For the love of me can't figure out which trinket is "RP", unless you meant the talent righteous protector.

Anyway what other trinkets except ichor / DMC you'd recommend for survivability?

The Autoblocker from Timewalking has a stupid OP on use effect. 2000+ armour for 40 seconds! But being ilvl 805 it must be crap

[woodknight]

So, I'm trying to use differents talents for M+, or just some fight at EN. (the same as Blueprìnt from realm Frostmourn). Well, maybe our 'HotP/LotP' is like a DEF CD for Blizzard, idk. Maybe we have to lose some HP. I dunno, but i'll run some M+ today, lookin for those trinkets and I'll test them. At warcraftlogs, Blueprìnt is the best at all, and, he's using 2% VERS; 26 CRIT; 23 HASTE; 14 MASTERY, using Memento and Chrono Shard. And if u see his logs, he has 100% Damage/Boss Damage and 10% Tank Suvibability. (Nythendra M) 12% at Ursoc! And, he still have the best logs for Pally Prot. So, should i give up to care about it, and just do the best DPS I can?

For high end hardcore guilds, after finishing mytgic progression, tanking becomes an extremely boring thing, because surviving is no longer a problem, no more changelings and no space of improvemnt. The only thing left they can do to prove themselves is to pursue DPS ranking on warcraftlogs.
So unless surviving is no long a problem for you and your healers are confortable at healing you, it is not wise to sacrifice survivabilty for marginal dps increase.

[OrcsRLame]

So I've been out of the loop for prot theorycrafting for a bit now. What's the current thinking for how the 7.1 changes will affect our stat priority? I'd think the new Crusader's Judgment would substantially increase the defensive value of both crit and the Stern Judgment trait.

[Corvolicious]

We have a CAP for Haste and Vers? I can get 34% Haste with my gear, but i don't see anyone using so much.
Btw, thanks for your help, guys!!

[Gallahadd]

So I've been out of the loop for prot theorycrafting for a bit now. What's the current thinking for how the 7.1 changes will affect our stat priority? I'd think the new Crusader's Judgment would substantially increase the defensive value of both crit and the Stern Judgment trait.

I believe they were tested a few pages back, when the change was first announced.

Basically, it doesn't actually change all that much, because BoL is still worlds better for basically everything. Although, IF you were to take CJ (which I'm thinking I will, something about the idea of it works for me.) I'm guessing Haste will still be better than crit. Crit WILL be better, but not by enough to change the stat prio.