Police shoot and kill elderly woman with bat despite having taser

[NineSpine]

You can't really compare the police in USA to the police in Europe. Different types of people they have to deal with. There's not many people attacking the police here compared to USA, nor are they likely to be armed to the same extent that happens in USA.

They don't have bats in Europe? Really?

[Deleted]

They don't have bats in Europe? Really?

Sure, but there's not many people attacking the police here in the first place since trust in the police is generally speaking pretty good here, compared to USA. People get shot every now and then when they attack the police here too, and end up dying. It just happens more often in USA because of the differences between european countries and USA.

[NineSpine]

Sure, but there's not many people attacking the police here in the first place since trust in the police is generally speaking pretty good here, compared to USA. People get shot every now and then when they attack the police here too, and end up dying. It just happens more often in USA because of the differences between european countries and USA.

Maybe trust in police is pretty good over there because the police don't kill hundreds of unarmed people every year. Maybe trust in police is pretty good over there because the response to mentally disturbed people isn't execution.

[Deleted]

Maybe trust in police is pretty good over there because the police don't kill hundreds of unarmed people every year. Maybe trust in police is pretty good over there because the response to mentally disturbed people isn't execution.

This is more of a what came first: Chicken or the egg?-type of thing. Did the police in USA start becoming violent because criminals were starting to become more violent or were people becoming more violent because the police were?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The person was mentally ill, and the police department knew this because she has had previous episodes.

The officer also had a taser, which he made no attempt to use on the elderly woman, who has a history of mental issues.

Again, tasers can easily be lethal too. And I'm sure if she were killed by a taser, you'd still be here.

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Because if we want people to call the police in situations like this, people need to believe the police are going to attempt to defuse the situation, not kill the person. If people believe that the police are going to just show up and kill the mentally unstable person, then when you have situations where a mentally unstable person is becoming dangerous, people will think twice about calling the police. So, even if you set aside the obvious moral repugnance of killing mentally unstable people, there is a practical problem with this that impedes and harms law enforcement.

It says it right there in the article that they tried to defuse the situation. Making shit up won't really help the conversation here.

[Themius]

You can't really compare the police in USA to the police in Europe. Different types of people they have to deal with. There's not many people attacking the police here compared to USA, nor are they likely to be armed to the same extent that happens in USA.

Police in Europea are typically trained for longer though...

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Again, tasers can easily be lethal too. And I'm sure if she were killed by a taser, you'd still be here.

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It says it right there in the article that they tried to defuse the situation. Making shit up won't really help the conversation here.

If she was killed by a taser why would I make the topic? A taser is a logical low chance of fatality item to use.

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This is more of a what came first: Chicken or the egg?-type of thing. Did the police in USA start becoming violent because criminals were starting to become more violent or were people becoming more violent because the police were?

All crime rates are down.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Police in Europea are typically trained for longer though...

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If she was killed by a taser why would I make the topic? A taser is a logical low chance of fatality item to use.

Mainly because we've had complaints here after a taser killed someone.

[Themius]

Pfft, everyone knows that if a cop shoots a black guy/gal, it'll go to media.

it's more like... if a white person is killed it makes the media... if a black person is killed... it makes the media... but when it's posted here it's "oh people only post are black people being killed they're always the only ones in media" wait if that's the fucking case how the fuck did we hear about the other cases when the victims weren't black? How the fuck did I learn about the white elderly man who was killed in his house? Or the mentally ill man killed in his house who were both white, if the media didn't mention these things.

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Mainly because we've had complaints here after a taser killed someone.

I've had one complaint about a taser... the case where a cop tased a HANDCUFFED GIRL running away.... the fatass cop just had to grab her. Anyway she died from head trauma, even if she didn't die I would have still been like why did you tase... she's handcuffed and isn't exactly the best runner, then again I guess when you're a fucking fatass cop running is too hard.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I've had one complaint about a taser... the case where a cop tased a HANDCUFFED GIRL running away.... the fatass cop just had to grab her. Anyway she died from head trauma, even if she didn't die I would have still been like why did you tase... she's handcuffed and isn't exactly the best runner, then again I guess when you're a fucking fatass cop running is too hard.

For the sake of clear communication I wasn't implying that YOU have complained about tasers, and I didn't that threat/article you mentioned either.

[Deleted]

Police in Europea are typically trained for longer though...

So?

All crime rates are down.

Which has nothing to do with violence by criminals against the police.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Themius is 100% right. Police in the US should be trained longer and to a better degree. But in this situation, the officer may have done the best thing. Its hard to really try to judge as we weren't there. Would a taser have killed her? Or even stopped her? No, just being a police officer doesn't mean your life should always be sacrificed in situations like these either.

Beyond training, our country as a whole needs better mental disorder awareness. Having one myself, people really don't even know what goes on in lives of people that have them. Think about some of the things people think about OCD or autism. I've heard someone say that people with OCD are lucky because their houses are so clean. I've heard people say that people with autism are lucky because they are just like rain man.... sadly I don't think either of those people were joking.

We just need better awareness and better training for our police.

[TheFirstOnes]

it's more like... if a white person is killed it makes the media... if a black person is killed... it makes the media... but when it's posted here it's "oh people only post are black people being killed they're always the only ones in media" wait if that's the fucking case how the fuck did we hear about the other cases when the victims weren't black? How the fuck did I learn about the white elderly man who was killed in his house? Or the mentally ill man killed in his house who were both white, if the media didn't mention these things.

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I've had one complaint about a taser... the case where a cop tased a HANDCUFFED GIRL running away.... the fatass cop just had to grab her. Anyway she died from head trauma, even if she didn't die I would have still been like why did you tase... she's handcuffed and isn't exactly the best runner, then again I guess when you're a fucking fatass cop running is too hard.

I've seen like millions of black deaths go to media all the fucking time, and they're mainly from cop shootings. Through the month, i've seen around 2 white shootings, and over 14 black shootings. :/ However, I will agree. I do sound a bit overdramatic when I said that. So, let me re-phrase it.

"If there's a black shooting, it'll get around a million views on the internet. But if a white person gets shot, it gets around 10k-100k on the internet".

[NineSpine]

This is more of a what came first: Chicken or the egg?-type of thing. Did the police in USA start becoming violent because criminals were starting to become more violent or were people becoming more violent because the police were?

Criminals aren't becoming more violent. Violent crime is down, and police deaths have been on a downward trend along with it. The US has always had a problem with the police, going back as far as slave patrols.

[Halicia]

I came into this thread thinking I'd be pro-victim, but (assuming) the events in the OP are true... which is a big case for bodycameras.... I don't find fault with the cop.

I could easily see myself being put in a "defensive mindset" after being concerned about being stabbed by scissors, and when the threat becomes urgent with the "lunging with a weapon", drawing the gun is an instinctive response, even if the rational mind might have used non-lethal force.

Of course, the description left a lot out, so *shrugs*.

[Themius]

I came into this thread thinking I'd be pro-victim, but (assuming) the events in the OP are true... which is a big case for bodycameras.... I don't find fault with the cop.

I could easily see myself being put in a "defensive mindset" after being concerned about being stabbed by scissors, and when the threat becomes urgent with the "lunging with a weapon", drawing the gun is an instinctive response, even if the rational mind might have used non-lethal force.

Of course, the description left a lot out, so *shrugs*.

The woman has a history of mental issues, she is known to the police department because she has had several breakdowns before. The cops knowing this didn't try to talk her down or use non-lethal means they had with them, instead they shot her instead of just tasing...

Our cops don't exactly have training to work with the mentally ill, for fuck sakes they barely have training.

[zmp]

Maybe the GMO in donuts are coming with massive side effects, so technically its not the cops fault..

[Vynny]

By that logic, he shouldn't have used a gun either, because it could have failed to fire.

Taser's have a much higher failure rate than guns. With a taser, both probes must pierce a certain depth into the skin so someone who is overweight or heavily clothed is much more likely to not be affected due to a failure to deploy. Also remember, both probes need to hit, and if one doesn't then it doesn't work whatsoever. Needless to say, it is not the tool of choice when someone is actively charging towards you and is better used before they've started coming at you, so if it does fail then you can switch to your gun in time if necessary. The point is that "By that logic, he shouldn't have used a gun either, because it could have failed to fire" shows a pretty piss poor understanding of how these things work.

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Coming at a police officer brandishing scissors is something you shouldn't do.

Police are afraid to die. We're asking them to be brave. Some are so cowardly that they shoot at the slightest provocation, these cowardly police need to be removed.

And who would replace them? Sorry to say, but the number of people with the courage to risk their lives for the sake of some violent insane person or criminal is quite the small number. Also, it's rather unfair to expect extraordinary traits such as said courage from everyone in a profession, and it's a bit dehumanizing when you think about it, expecting them to value their lives less than the life of a violent suspect or person who poses a warranted threat to their safety.

[Seegtease]

THen he would've gotten shat on because he beat up an old, insane, woman. Either way, someone would make a thing out of it.

Even if he's going to lose either way, I'm pretty sure it's better for him to not kill someone if not necessary.

I'm sorry, and I know there are some 66 year olds in pretty good shape, but anyone who lacks the skills to non-lethally subdue an elderly lady who is only armed with a melee weapon has no business being a police officer.

[Asiwassaying]

If you need a gun to take down an old lady with a bat, you need to be fired as a cop. You clearly can't even protect yourself so you are unqualified.

And this is from a guy who wanted to be a cop.

[Sesshou]

By that logic, he shouldn't have used a gun either, because it could have failed to fire.

Not even remotely comparable. If the cop properly maintained his revolver, the odds of it not working properly are astronomically low compared to that of a taser failing to stop somebody.

Though I am definitely in the camp of why did a policeman need a gun or even a taser to subdue a 66 year old woman with a bat. I mean it is certainly possible we're talking about a fit, strong 66 year old woman (picture in the article was a face shot), but if we're talking just your average 66 year old woman, I don't see why the cop can't do that barehanded. Does his department not offer any kind of training for this stuff? If it was a knife, there is a reasonable danger in disarming them by force, but a bat? No, this woman would get one swing at most if the officer couldn't close the distance while the brought the bat backwards to prep the swing at which point the cop could over power her swinging arm rendering her bat harmless. Or wait at maximum distance to step back on her swing, then rush her and do the same. Now 18-50 or so male with a bat charging the cop, he might not have been able to just overpower up close so I can see a need to go for a taser or maybe handgun.

Bats can be plenty dangerous, but that depends entirely on who is swinging it. A 66 year old woman swinging one against a trained male police officer is just not a serious threat. Even if the cop used his arm to block it, her swing probably wouldn't even break his arm. And that right there is reasonable the worst case situation. Then one good slug (by which I mean a fist, not a bullet) with the other hand, and incident solved with no loss of life.