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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    For me, personally, what makes me mad is that LFR gives the impression to new players that they cleared the game.
    You fight the last boss, you get epics, you end the game.
    New players have no idea of what raiding is all about because LFR have big, huge, enormous arrows pointing at it sayin "DO ME" "DO ME".
    And because of that they never feel the urge to do a normal raid.

    Why would a new player want to do a normal raid? Item level...a number...yay. That doesn't leave new players wet or even close to nerdgasm.
    What i am trying to say is that LFR makes new players quit the game sooner without any kind of desire to do a normal raid.

    Normal raids should be queueable to at least make the noobs try a normal raid for once in their lives...but with LFR enabled i don't even know if they would have the desire to try it. Why would they? item level? Bah.
    why? Peoples should be free to enjoy what they want, if that is lfr then good for them, are you going to fallout forum and protest cuz peoples play on easy instead of survival? Are peoples going to protest on civ6 forum because peoples play on easy instead of conqueror? And those game all start with the difficult set on easy.

    Normal raid should stay as they are and peoples should accept that some prefer lfr, some like mythic and other don't raid at all and like pet battles.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  2. #402
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post

    Lets see:
    1) Gear that is best in game
    2) Higher chance of legs drop
    3) Higher chance to warforge or titanforge
    4) Titles
    5) Mounts with 100% drop rate
    6) Special boss phases with additional story
    7) Realm First announced to the entire server spamming the chat
    8) Special reward that is not available to lfr like doing the meta achievement and so another mount, special skin for artifact etc.
    1) Gear that is pointlessly at best. What can you do with gear that in PvP gets nerfed, and in PVE gets replaced with new content patch?
    2) Who cares
    3) See 1
    4) Also nobody cares
    5) When you have hundreds of mounts, do you really care for another one you most likely won't even ride around on?
    6) Something you can see on YouTube.
    7) If you're the one guild who gets to be Realm First. That's literally a handful of people
    8) Also who cares.
    The reward is more than enough so let me see are lfr player entitled or some special snowflake who are too greedy?
    That is you opinion. Some people would be happy if Blizzard mailed them a lollipop, but not me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Hence why I'm seeking a Vanilla server. You don't mind if I go back to Vanilla, and leave you to your game? No? Good, then you don't mind if Nostalrius opens up again? You play your game while I play my game.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Come again?
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=137419/c...bonus=1727%3A0

    Also once again doesn't matter. Someone is not going to drop there 890 epic for a 845 set piece. There is zero reasons for LFR to be gated at this point.
    You knew he was meaning tier sets that are based on your class. And people have done it before if the set bonus is a big enough % increase. Hell casters did Immersus just for the trinket because the LFR version was better than every other trinket if you didn't already have it from the other difficulties.

  4. #404
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    why? Peoples should be free to enjoy what they want, if that is lfr then good for them, are you going to fallout forum and protest cuz peoples play on easy instead of survival? Are peoples going to protest on civ6 forum because peoples play on easy instead of conqueror? And those game all start with the difficult set on easy.

    Normal raid should stay as they are and peoples should accept that some prefer lfr, some like mythic and other don't raid at all and like pet battles.
    A lot of games at least mock you for playing on the easiest difficulty.
    WoW rewards people with epics.
    It's fine if someone wants to do the "very easy mode" but they shouldn't feel acomplished "gear wise" in a MMO. Otherwise they feel like they completed the game.
    And according to LFR lovers they don't do it for the gear. Makes no sense giving a sense of acomplishment in gear for completing LFR.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geQD4zwp1Rc
    Last edited by mmocaf0660f03c; 2016-10-20 at 02:00 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    They weren't trying, Blizzard didn't set around and say " hey how can we screw the largest bulk of our players". Blizzard doesn't try and do lots of things that end up happening, doesn't mean they don't happen all the same. You also seem to be forgetting an entire expansion in your progression path, you know the expansion that had the largest amount of crying about LFR being mandatory? Or are we just going to act like MoP didn't have full tier sets, weapons, legendaries, all with powerful set bonuses and those same gem slots.
    If you did any other difficulty then you took care of your legendary drops there, you couldn't double up so it was worthless for anybody doing any other form of raiding. Sha weapons for the truly unlucky was the only reason to do LFR. Even then you didn't need it, if you felt forced or those that did are lower end raiders that are hoping to get over some hump. Without every single bonus and benefit cannot and wont clear content. If that is the case then LFR is exactly what you should be doing.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    1) Gear that is pointlessly at best. What can you do with gear that in PvP gets nerfed, and in PVE gets replaced with new content patch?
    2) Who cares
    3) See 1
    4) Also nobody cares
    5) When you have hundreds of mounts, do you really care for another one you most likely won't even ride around on?
    6) Something you can see on YouTube.
    7) If you're the one guild who gets to be Realm First. That's literally a handful of people
    8) Also who cares.

    That is you opinion. Some people would be happy if Blizzard mailed them a lollipop, but not me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Hence why I'm seeking a Vanilla server. You don't mind if I go back to Vanilla, and leave you to your game? No? Good, then you don't mind if Nostalrius opens up again? You play your game while I play my game.
    i don't really care but i'm already see how thing are going to end, once 1 year had passed and even the dumbest idiot had enough gear to farm the hell out of kel'thuzad you will be back crying that every scrub has t3 and vanilla need more challenging content.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  7. #407
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    I say this as someone who mainly does LFR and has finished EN NM before the final wing of LFR has released.
    At least you admit your bias. This is the exact reason LFR is gated. The goal is to push people to organized raiding.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    If you did any other difficulty then you took care of your legendary drops there, you couldn't double up so it was worthless for anybody doing any other form of raiding. Sha weapons for the truly unlucky was the only reason to do LFR. Even then you didn't need it, if you felt forced or those that did are lower end raiders that are hoping to get over some hump. Without every single bonus and benefit cannot and wont clear content. If that is the case then LFR is exactly what you should be doing.
    Right so this is why everyone and their pet dog was bitching about needing to run it because of the Tier set bonuses and trinkets? You are remembering a very different version of how things went down on this forum than I am then because it was practically non-stop. Unless you were a heroic guild that immediately had normal on farm everyone was doing LFR for the Legendary drops, otherwise you were leaving chances on the table as you were progressing through.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Right so this is why everyone and their pet dog was bitching about needing to run it because of the Tier set bonuses and trinkets? You are remembering a very different version of how things went down on this forum than I am then because it was practically non-stop. Unless you were a heroic guild that immediately had normal on farm everyone was doing LFR for the Legendary drops, otherwise you were leaving chances on the table as you were progressing through.
    The ilvl gap between lfr and the highest end wasnt as big as it js now as well. I suspect even with tier bonuses it maybe be prwtty fucking useless unless they raise the ilvl on lfr.

    Those same people had been bitching about farming other content as far back as bc. In that case it was consumable. In wrath it was 10 man content that had potential bis. Eventually years of gutting the game lead to WoD. Theyve since somewhat reversed that but like anything with Blizzard its.one step forward two steps back.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2016-10-20 at 02:07 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The ilvl gap between lfr and the highest end wasnt as big as it js now as well. I suspect even with tier bonuses it maybe be prwtty fucking useless unless they raise the ilvl on lfr.

    Those same people had been bitching about farming other content as far back as bc. In that case it was consumable. In wrath it was 10 man content that had potential bis. Eventually years of gutting the game lead to WoD. Theyve since somewhat reversed that but like anything with Blizzard its.one step forward two steps back.
    I suspect the only way it will be worth it now is if some spec has a 2 piece bonus that is just out of this world. With MoP it was worth it because the gap as you said wasn't nearly as large so having a 4 piece of tier trumped pretty much whatever ilevel gap there was.

    There was a reason WoD LFR offered jack and squat, and it was directly because of how much bitching had come out of MoP over people " feeling forced" to do LFR. Blizzard basically was forced to add that stuff back in, because not having it basically caused the system to collapse. Once everyone finished the legendary part there was zero reason to go back into LFR during WoD. The Valor addition wasn't just about giving players something else to do, it was just as much to prop up LFR at the end because the thing was dang near dead.

    I suspect it will be fine this go around simply because the ilevel gap will be so large, and with the addition of normal most of those raiders can get it out of there and it will be a higher ilevel.

    This notion though that LFR has never been about gear progression is a load of crap. The only expansion that hasn't been the case for at least part of the expansion was WoD, and it wasn't really that good for anyone except freshly dinged 100's that absolutely zero gear at all.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Right so this is why everyone and their pet dog was bitching about needing to run it because of the Tier set bonuses and trinkets? You are remembering a very different version of how things went down on this forum than I am then because it was practically non-stop. Unless you were a heroic guild that immediately had normal on farm everyone was doing LFR for the Legendary drops, otherwise you were leaving chances on the table as you were progressing through.
    Running one level below where you are to gear up isn't an issue. Now if that level is LFR then so be it that is one of the places you should be looking for gear. Far too many people try to act like mythic raiders or then heroic, spam farm this nonsense content. It happened in DS because they could funnel gear and at the time the gem socket bonus, item level jump and tier bonuses were worth it. It hasn't been like that since. Even with SoO when LFR gear was better item lvl then much of the ToT gear ppl just kept on doing flex runs if they really wanted certain things. There are plenty of options, if those options are too difficult for some then like it or not LFR is set up for them.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  12. #412
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    i don't really care but i'm already see how thing are going to end, once 1 year had passed and even the dumbest idiot had enough gear to farm the hell out of kel'thuzad you will be back crying that every scrub has t3 and vanilla need more challenging content.
    Or, I could move my character to a TBC server. And from there, to a WOTLK server. I'd probably stop right there.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    ....I think you misunderstood what I said.

    "How come people only bring this type of issue up with MMO's, and no other multiplayer games with difficulty levels?"

    As in... why is this a problem ONLY with MMO's, and not OTHER genres?

    You'd never see someone say that someone who killed a boss in some co-op shooter on easy vs some other guy who killed them on the hardest difficulty is devaluing the experience. It's literally only a complaint you ever hear in the MMO genre. Why? It's like you halfway read what I even said or something
    The following is a bit tangential, but I'll just use this as a launch point for my thoughts.

    The difference, in a nutshell, is reward structures. In a co-op shooter (let's take Left 4 Dead as an example), the challenge of a harder difficulty is sort of self-incentivizing. There's not a big underlying reward structure that motivates players to do things. It's a much more cut-and-dry "let's play a round of this because we feel like playing a round of this". If someone's playing a harder or easier difficulty, it'll either be purely because they're seeking out that experience or because of some kind of edge case, like hunting an achievement.

    MMOs, on the other hand, are extremely reward-driven. Things like gear are set up as a goal, and they matter a lot. That's all by design - these rewards are going to have a huge effect on how players react to, engage with and consume content. And a big part of all of these rewards is exclusivity - after all, powerful shiny gear loses a lot of psychological impact if (for example) every schmuck could buy it from a vendor. Because the most compelling rewards are easily comparable (ilvl, etc) that means that nothing exists in a vacuum.

    In an MMO, that makes lowering anything to the lowest common denominator a tricky prospect. It might make something accessible, but they have to be careful about how it interacts with the overall reward structure. They've struggled with some extremes over the years (pre-MoP legendaries, MoP/WoD legendaries, various raiding difficulty iterations) and their end goal is to meet the challenge of making sure that the reward structure is compelling, accessible AND long-lived.

    When it comes to LFR, their current thinking is that it's fantastic as a "story mode", but that it shouldn't be terribly reward-driven for the sake of other raiding modes. It's not exactly a compelling form of raiding in any respect (outside of the initial exposure to the story) which means that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot if it manages to even partially eclipse the other raiding modes. They want it in place for the sake of people who won't ever be raiding in other modes, but they don't want its existence to keep people out of those modes. Assuming that this is Blizzard's current line of thinking, I agree with them.

    Some people would argue that none of this is relevant because they don't care what other players have or do (and other players shouldn't care what they have/do), but the reality is that MMOs are very communal. We inevitably have a bunch of exposure to other players, we see what rewards they've gotten, we can clue ourselves in on what they did to get those, and we'll have feelings about our position relative to theirs. That's not a competitive streak or something, that's just a natural thought process for people playing the same game together. Because things like difficulty levels have a somewhat tight relationship with what someone did to "earn" something, difficulty modes (and their associated rewards) suddenly become a lot more relevant than in some other genres.


    As an aside, I guess one reason that LFR in particular is disparaged (as opposed to flex/normal/whatever) is that the experience is fundamentally unlike raiding. You've got that number of people, you've got the encounters and you've got all of the art/story, but the structure and expectations are a totally different beast entirely. Even the most shambolic PuG in an easy normal-mode raid is doing a bunch of things that just don't happen in LFR - both in terms of social interaction and gameplay - which is why it gets the whole "not real raiding" criticism. To me, that's just semantics and I don't think that it deserves the vitriol that it gets, but I agree with the underlying idea that it's not the "same thing".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    This notion though that LFR has never been about gear progression is a load of crap. The only expansion that hasn't been the case for at least part of the expansion was WoD, and it wasn't really that good for anyone except freshly dinged 100's that absolutely zero gear at all.
    For what it's worth, LFR hasn't really been around for many expansions. The first expansion where it was around for the whole thing was MoP, and Blizzard started making some pretty significant changes as soon as WoD. It's not like it has a big tradition of anything.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2016-10-20 at 02:42 PM.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Right so this is why everyone and their pet dog was bitching about needing to run it because of the Tier set bonuses and trinkets? You are remembering a very different version of how things went down on this forum than I am then because it was practically non-stop. Unless you were a heroic guild that immediately had normal on farm everyone was doing LFR for the Legendary drops, otherwise you were leaving chances on the table as you were progressing through.
    it could have solved in a simple way without impacting anyone:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    To ease the burden on organized raiders Lfr now share it's bosses lockout with the other difficulties
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Or, I could move my character to a TBC server. And from there, to a WOTLK server. I'd probably stop right there.
    so basically you are telling me that if blizzard do vanilla servers you would play there only for certain period of time?
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Except no serious raider that is clearing Mythic before LFR is out gives a fuck about who clears LFR.

    And if anyone DOES, then that's just a goddamned stupid fucking thing to care about and no one should cater to it at all.
    So why do LFR players get to complain if heroic and mythic raiders get to see a boss before them? Bit of a double standard going on. Why do LFR players give a fuck about who clears what first? Would that also constitute as "just goddamn stupid fucking thing to care about and no one should cater to it at all"?

  16. #416
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    so basically you are telling me that if blizzard do vanilla servers you would play there only for certain period of time?
    Probably. Unless I want to level another character and do the same thing again. But at that point I'd get bored and move to another game.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by hawtlol View Post
    So why do LFR players get to complain if heroic and mythic raiders get to see a boss before them? Bit of a double standard going on. Why do LFR players give a fuck about who clears what first? Would that also constitute as "just goddamn stupid fucking thing to care about and no one should cater to it at all"?
    Well 99% don't care who does what first. I just think having to wait 6 weeks is ripping the piss. A week would be plenty imho.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's not a double standard at all. Just release the content at the same time, keeping content away from one group to protect the ego of another group is nonsensical.
    Or, and hear me out here, Blizzard would rather squeeze an extra month of sub money from people who would otherwise leave between tiers.

    It's almost as if they are some sort of corporate entity that wants to make money. A new concept, which I will name "business".
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  19. #419
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's not a double standard at all. Just release the content at the same time, keeping content away from one group to protect the ego of another group is nonsensical.
    I think the gate is the nice way of Blizzard saying "you are not supposed to do this Sh%@#", "go do normal".
    Well said Blizzard

    /Selfprops
    Last edited by mmocaf0660f03c; 2016-10-20 at 09:32 PM.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    I think the gate is the nice way of Blizzard saying "you are not supposed to do this Sh%@#", "go do normal".
    Well said Blizzard

    /Selfprops
    Yeah and you and Blizzard still haven't figured it out. It doesn't matter how much you try and attract people to do normal, they aren't going to do it unless they can click a button and queue for it.

    Most of the people running only LFR generally aren't doing normal because they don't want to deal with the people or the crazy expectations some groups have. It doesn't matter what you put in " real raiding " the vast majority of people don't want to do it.

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