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  1. #341
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Severance packages do not restore or keep a community alive.

    These are losers created by direct policy. If I am going to flood a town do I not owe the towns people for their loss?

    I am not accusing you of being a Liberal, if anything I love that for once its not a Liberal saying these things. But I am finding it funny that you and Liberals use the exact same words and the exact same mindset. Curiously though you call me Marxist, they call me Fascist.

    Your belief is from my perspective indistinguishable from it. Both of you are seeking the same basic world and reaching for the same basic project. I am merely questioning the ethics of what that project is and the ethics of its "Creative Destruction." Also much like the Liberals you feel you must justify this with some poor beleaguered girl in the Third world, you still essentially coach your argument the same as a valiant Social Justice Warrior would do, calling up the benefits for the PoC, and using crude Utilitarian logic to justify it all.
    Hey, I'm pretty consistent in my Beleifs. I'd say the same thing on the context of a minimum wage debate or what have you. I can't help it if liberals adopt my line of thought to rationalize or create smoke and miroors for those they neglect.

    Most liberals I know would complain how the Indonesian girl is being "exploited" because they live in a strange reality where economies and standards of living change overnight. They ale ignore the dicksucking altrenative and ignore any benefits the girl receives by working.

  2. #342
    Mechagnome Starscream101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The BANNzoman View Post
    I apologize. I forgot I had that. I'll remove it.

    - - - Updated - - -
    NOOOOOOO!!!! it was epic

  3. #343
    Deleted
    It's only natural that after gaining your freedom there will be a rough period to get through.

  4. #344
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'm curious if @Yvaelle has any thoughts on this post.
    Hadn't been on the forums this evening and heading to bed now, but I will respond in greater depth tomorrow.

    I empathize with the idea of communities (Anatevka) crushed under the ever-marching heel of progress, I hope that we can preserve some memory of them in the historical records - but in my view progress is inexorable. Anatevka was destined to become dust long before it was ever built - at best we can, through tradition, preserve a strictly defined culture for a matter of a few generations - but isolation is essential even here - and all things are impermanent: except change.

    Progress is the idea that, by embracing the impermanence of all things, we can instead focus on guiding change toward positive outcomes, rather than - through tradition - bracing against change - and failing to hold off the river of time's torrent.

    Regarding the Welsh language and culture, which I'm sure is what personalizes the struggle for you - I think you are doing the right thing - passing it on as best you can. Yet in time it will be - at best - assimilated into the zeitgeist of culture - or at worst lost entirely to the endless ebb of time.

    Perhaps that's the greatest ideological difference between you and I - I embrace my own impermanence, I wish to become a part of the river itself. You wish to climb out of it, and build something to outlast the endless currents? Tradition vs. Change. Valuing what makes now special, and lamenting what has already been lost - versus sacrificing what we have, in the hopes of something better yet to come.
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  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Perhaps that's the greatest ideological difference between you and I - I embrace my own impermanence, I wish to become a part of the river itself. You wish to climb out of it, and build something to outlast the endless currents? Tradition vs. Change. Valuing what makes now special, and lamenting what has already been lost - versus sacrificing what we have, in the hopes of something better yet to come.
    Honestly the best approach is probably swimming by the riverside and dragging as much shit from land as possible. At least Welsh can be part of the river, and if it gets torn apart by the current.. well, at least it had a good run.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Meafy View Post
    Someone should tell New Zealand that. Currently we are in Trade negotiations with them.

    This E.U partnership is starting to sound like a bad relationship: 'if you leave i'l take this away from you or punish you!'
    No. You're not.
    The UK doesn't even have trade negotiators and New Zealand, Australia, the US and others have all said they are interested but will only talk after they know what the UK can offer.

    At best, what you have is a series of junkets during which the UK and NZ both agree that they'll meet for trade talks once Brexit is done.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by The BANNzoman View Post
    Belief on the market isn't similar to a blind belief in God. markets--buyers, sellers, and their decisions--are observable. God isn't.
    So your positon is that we should compensate people for intangible losses?
    Should the economy be for economists, or for the people?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Perhaps that's the greatest ideological difference between you and I - I embrace my own impermanence, I wish to become a part of the river itself. You wish to climb out of it, and build something to outlast the endless currents? Tradition vs. Change. Valuing what makes now special, and lamenting what has already been lost - versus sacrificing what we have, in the hopes of something better yet to come.
    As a conservative, i might steal that.
    Progress is the idea that, by embracing the impermanence of all things, we can instead focus on guiding change toward positive outcomes, rather than - through tradition - bracing against change - and failing to hold off the river of time's torrent.
    A lot of people are trying to force change to achieve what they consider to be positive outcomes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    Another problem is that the Brexit side really can't complain about a demand for a second vote, because it's their side that started the whole "if the results are too close there must be a second vote!"-argument. One of their petitions even got turned upside down. Their "let's revote" petition, the one they made before the referendum because they didn''t think they'd win, caught fire and was used by millions of British people demanding a revote.
    Strictly speaking there should not be a revote, there should be a vote about whether or not to stay in the single market or not, which really should have been the initial vote anyway, as all the citizens problems with the EU (migration, primacy of EU law and the ECJ, monetary transfers) are really core parts of the EEA.
    Last edited by mmocfd561176b9; 2016-10-20 at 11:55 AM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Ironically really, considering the Merkel's are pooring poison down each nation's throats and calling it honey.
    Lol did you even read what i wrote?
    Yes refugee's are a point and where used as a point. But the main problem has NOTHING to do with refugee's. Its about control and money!!!
    And if you read the second part of my comment. I am saying that allot of politicians use this low live, scum, screaming tactic.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinch View Post
    Oh the irony...
    It really isn't. And if you are so terribly worried about the EUs "increasing control over domestic affairs" here, you maybe should not consider yourself a european. Stick to Name-for-a-citizen-of-your-country since clearly that "identity" matters to you more than the European Union. Which is totally fine by the way, but if you are afraid to lose your vote because there is an overarching government-type-group to tie strings together (which is backed up by nothing but your fears actually) you are not fit for this kind of thing. And "I like Europe, i just don't like any of its rules and choose to refuse accepting everything that makes it work as a union to begin with because i dont agree to parts of it."? Clearly flawless logic, too.

    By the way... its a tiresome argument to bitch and moan about the EU doing things wrong... You know? Because local governments never make any mistakes ever and are always right and greatly appreciated for what they do, duh'. You are doing this... basic thing people tend to do, where they entirely ignore every positive effect things have because something in it hurt their feelings once. The EU as a regulatory system is part of Europe and even tho it doesn't work and fails often it worked very well a lot more often. But of course nobody speaks about it if it does.

    And the amount of influence the EU has on YOUR everyday live is blown extremely out of propotion by right-wings. Sure, there are things where it absolutely does. Not just good things but some of them are... damn good for you... You know? Like this trade-agreement even Brexit-Britain clings to for dear life because they notice "FUCK! LOSING THIS WILL BE DOOM!".

    I really hope that Britain in some shape or form manages to get back together. The EU seems willing to just go "Fine, welcome back." apparently if they decide to. Lets hope it goes there and solve the issue instead of running from it like a chicken does from fireworks.
    Last edited by SoundOfGuns; 2016-10-20 at 01:05 PM.
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  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Semantics. This is how a democracy works. Britain voted to leave and the rest of the world will not go easy.
    Being the EU isn't the whole world I'm sure they will be fine finding other trading partners.

    https://reportuk.org/2016/10/08/brit...ar-to-canadas/

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/brexit-de...115606845.html


    Seems even the EU isn't turning their backs that much.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    It really isn't. And if you are so terribly worried about the EUs "increasing control over domestic affairs" here, you maybe should not consider yourself a european. Stick to Name-for-a-citizen-of-your-country since clearly that "identity" matters to you more than the European Union. Which is totally fine by the way, but if you are afraid to lose your vote because there is an overarching government-type-group to tie strings together (which is backed up by nothing but your fears actually) you are not fit for this kind of thing. And "I like Europe, i just don't like any of its rules and choose to refuse accepting everything that makes it work as a union to begin with because i dont agree to parts of it."? Clearly flawless logic, too.

    By the way... its a tiresome argument to bitch and moan about the EU doing things wrong... You know? Because local governments never make any mistakes ever and are always right and greatly appreciated for what they do, duh'. You are doing this... basic thing people tend to do, where they entirely ignore every positive effect things have because something in it hurt their feelings once. The EU as a regulatory system is part of Europe and even tho it doesn't work and fails often it worked very well a lot more often. But of course nobody speaks about it if it does.

    And the amount of influence the EU has on YOUR everyday live is blown extremely out of propotion by right-wings. Sure, there are things where it absolutely does. Not just good things but some of them are... damn good for you... You know? Like this trade-agreement even Brexit-Britain clings to for dear life because they notice "FUCK! LOSING THIS WILL BE DOOM!".

    I really hope that Britain in some shape or form manages to get back together. The EU seems willing to just go "Fine, welcome back." apparently if they decide to. Lets hope it goes there and solve the issue instead of running from it like a chicken does from fireworks.
    I never said everything the EU does is bad and everything national government does is good, that's just a strawman you've created. Just because national governments aren't perfect doesn't mean I am not allowed to criticise the EU.

    And you make the mistake again of conflating Europe and the EU. I am European by birth, just because I don't want to be a part of a supranational organisation doesn't make me any less European.

  12. #352
    Yep, globalism is really the new bogeyman. Very ironic coming from the part of the country that prided itself on having the largest Empire ever and who pushed for free trade for most of it's history.

    But I guess Indians and Canadians were not filthy vermin when it was the time to send them die under German machines guns, right fellahs ?

  13. #353
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Hadn't been on the forums this evening and heading to bed now, but I will respond in greater depth tomorrow.

    I empathize with the idea of communities (Anatevka) crushed under the ever-marching heel of progress, I hope that we can preserve some memory of them in the historical records - but in my view progress is inexorable. Anatevka was destined to become dust long before it was ever built - at best we can, through tradition, preserve a strictly defined culture for a matter of a few generations - but isolation is essential even here - and all things are impermanent: except change.

    Progress is the idea that, by embracing the impermanence of all things, we can instead focus on guiding change toward positive outcomes, rather than - through tradition - bracing against change - and failing to hold off the river of time's torrent.

    Regarding the Welsh language and culture, which I'm sure is what personalizes the struggle for you - I think you are doing the right thing - passing it on as best you can. Yet in time it will be - at best - assimilated into the zeitgeist of culture - or at worst lost entirely to the endless ebb of time.

    Perhaps that's the greatest ideological difference between you and I - I embrace my own impermanence, I wish to become a part of the river itself. You wish to climb out of it, and build something to outlast the endless currents? Tradition vs. Change. Valuing what makes now special, and lamenting what has already been lost - versus sacrificing what we have, in the hopes of something better yet to come.
    I think our difference might be even more primal, We both look at time and see primarily different things. Where you see a river, I see an ocean. Cosmologicaly we both interpret the universe and time radically different. In the end, I don't believe in progress as a real idea, that there is a "march of progress," or that time flows to a destination. To me, there is no river, only a sea with current within but those current go nowhere in particular. The seas roil and become chaotic or they become tranquil and still, but the sea is there and it ultimately is just there. You see a river, it flows towards something and carries us to some sort of destination. So you are on a kayak wanting a rowing ore for steering away from rocks and certain doom, and me, I am on a big schooner wanting a compass so I know where I have already been and to avoid the doldrums.

    Though we do agree that it is aquatic in nature, so I suppose we have a starting point. We both agree time is like water, either fresh or salty, but either way we do agree it is basically waterlike. Two us both, our approaches though look very silly, you see me oddly trying to find a compass and look at the stars to determine where I am whilst rocks and rapids approach, and I see you as someone searching for an rowing or so they might paddle through a current that just goes in a big circle. Our agreements end at "We are both in water."

    And yes, it is almost certainly true that my own personal history colors this. I come from a very small town, which itself is part of a smaller place and a much smaller world. I have never been a big cosmopolitan dreamer, in fact when I return home I rarely think to go to Cardiff, much less London which is a place I loathe seeing and going to mainly because it is loud, crowded and too skittery for my taste.

    As for Sacrifice, I could see the point, but to me the sacrifice must be done willingly and must be done fairly. Why should Anatevka be sacrificed against its own will for the enrichment of another? I do not see that particular part of the equation as moral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #354
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    No it will not. ( depends on Scotland leaving ) it will cost them some harbors etc and the oil ( read somewhere Brittian will be better off like 400 ponds a month if they left?). But when they come out of it. They will be a smaller unit. Going against giants like Russia, EU, China, America. And they also have the problem that as long as this is going on their credit rating will get lower. And that means less investments by foreign company's. It has already gone from AAA to AA ( it goes from AAA+ to AAA to AA+ to AA etc etc). So thats allready 2 lower as it was ( it was AAA before). And if you are looking for a business partner in EU you will have many better options then.
    Want banks: Go Netherlands
    Want production: Go germany
    Want labor: Go east EU
    Want harbors: France, Netherlands
    Etc etc

    But we can think about all we want.
    But we do not know how UK will leave the EU. What deals will be made, what scotland/n Ireland will do. So i could be very wrong of very right. Time will tell.
    So really you don't know. "You could be wrong, you could be right." Speak with confidence or don't speak at all.

    If UK has nothing to offer the world apart from the EU, why so much pull to keep them?

    Want banks: Go Netherlands
    Want production: Go germany
    Want labor: Go east EU
    Want harbors: France, Netherlands
    Etc etc
    This would be true whether they were part of the EU or not. Being in the EU gives the UK less power to negotiate to capitalize on what they have to offer the world. It subjects them to regulation that is not necessarily the best for the country, but is better for the EU.

    The U.S. went from AAA to AA.

    My point is there are a select few countries that have really profited from the EU, (the ones you listed) and other countries have not seen the same benefit. Greece, UK... countless others.

    I don't like to cry conspiracy but truthfully gone are the days of fighting wars with bullets and bombs. Germany has been on the warpath again and it is taking over Europe financially. You don't think that credit rating change was a way to bend the UK to their will? Or punishment for a bad decision? It by no means cripples them, or prevents them operating as they normally would, but it benefits the big banks.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    The U.S. went from AAA to AA.
    We went from AAA to AA+ from the S&P after passing the Budget Control Act of 2011. Fitch/Moody's still has the US at AAA. Just fixing that claim there, not arguing against what you're saying or anything.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    ....

    Seems even the EU isn't turning their backs that much.
    EU's turning speed depends on Theresa May. if she wants a cold hart Brexit, she'll get some.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Again, no one is talking about not respecting the result. If you want Brexit to succeed it has to be done constitutionally and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that, constitutionally, Parliament should get a say in triggering Article 50.
    Parliament delegated the decision to leave the EU to the British people when they voted for the referendum, and the majority of MP's now say that they respect the result of that referendum.

    If they do then what purpose, other than as a tick boxing exercise or as a clandestine way of stopping Brexit, would them voting on triggering article 50 serve?

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinch View Post
    Parliament delegated the decision to leave the EU to the British people when they voted for the referendum, and the majority of MP's now say that they respect the result of that referendum.

    If they do then what purpose, other than as a tick boxing exercise or as a clandestine way of stopping Brexit, would them voting on triggering article 50 serve?
    why not discuss in parliament how much Brexit ? Hard one ? Soft one ?

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinch View Post
    Parliament delegated the decision to leave the EU to the British people when they voted for the referendum,
    Nope, it was purely advisory, not legally binding.
    If they do then what purpose, other than as a tick boxing exercise or as a clandestine way of stopping Brexit, would them voting on triggering article 50 serve?
    Well the alternative is that the government had the power to exit the EU at a moments notice with no support whatsoever.
    For everyone who thinks the EU is an autocratic and despotic fourth Reich, that seems like an untenable position.
    Oh, and it also forces all those idiots who wanted the referendum, and all the weaklings who sold out their actual positions, to vote for brexit - So they can be held accountable for voting for it.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Nope, it was purely advisory, not legally binding.

    Well the alternative is that the government had the power to exit the EU at a moments notice with no support whatsoever.
    For everyone who thinks the EU is an autocratic and despotic fourth Reich, that seems like an untenable position.
    Oh, and it also forces all those idiots who wanted the referendum, and all the weaklings who sold out their actual positions, to vote for brexit - So they can be held accountable for voting for it.
    Technically it was advisory, but in practice it was advertised as nothing such. That line of argument certainly won't wash with a large part of the electorate.

    How would it be with no support? The support is the referendum that was ratified by Parliament.

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