Why does every important figure have to be either a human or an orc?

[ravenmoon]

The pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans. "That's always gotta be what Warcraft is about."

Is the Pandaren’s thoughtful mentality going to change the Horde and Alliance? Are the Horde and Alliance just going to go there, corrupt it, and then go back to what they were doing before?
I guess the way I would answer that is… Ultimately, for my part, I always come back to this one theme in Warcraft. I think the core of Warcraft’s animus is cyclic. Because you can only push racial hatred through so many products without it feeling like the same old thing, and thus end. But the pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans; it really is the Alliance and Horde by extension, and it really is those two groups beating the brains out of each other for an extended period of time. That’s always gotta be what Warcraft is about. (Source)

and with Metzen retired, I do wonder what new direction this may take. I'm thoroughly enjoying legion, the Night elf lore in the nightborne, highborne, druids, wardens and demon hunters is amazing and very refreshing = and I'm loving it that it's not about horde or alliance - we're are seeing the varying strands of night elf culture never seen before in game but which I've read about extensively, seeing new developments, like the Court of Farondis, the Nightfallen and even the old druids - it's nice to see night elf focus so.

I'm still think that Khadgar shows up a lot, and that he's leading the invasion of the nighthold - well it makes sense after the build up in the comic and previous expansion - but ultimately, as fancy as the night elven show has been, we have Khadgar leading and Gul'dan defending - human v orc again

so I guess we're still there....

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If only Blizzard was capable of writing any story about a race without making it either all about humans/orcs, or making that previously prestigious group look inferior to humans/orcs.

Night Elves got that in Wolfheart and Tyrande in the Temple of the Red Crane scenario.

Night elves still get that even here in broken shore.. let's look at the various groups.

1. Nightborne - either evil racists or corrupted and addicted - although Thalyssra does very well
2. Highborne ghosts - cursed, and for all intents and purposes ineffective to anything, they can't leave Azsuna it seems
3. Val'sharah druids - nearly all displaced because of the nightmare, they find refuge with their nightborne kin under Thalyssra, but guess who's got a village in Val'sharah next to an ancient elven fortress? Yep you got that right, HUMANS - from Gilneas.
4. Moonguard - well nearly totally wiped out, Fortress fallen, survivors have joined with their nightborne kin who weren't trying to kill them.
5. Wardens - "The Wardens are now few in number, yet threats exist, ... slay this ..." - again, massive losses, nearly totally decimated.


I mean Suramar City, fancy new nightborne elves, etc are nice eye candy, but hey night elves don't come off strong in this situation at all, either addicted corrupted if they're nightborne, weak if they're druids, hopeless if ghosts - and at the end of the day, they need a human to command all the elves, - i mean blood elves, night elves, nightborne, highborne, high elves - i mean seriously ... with the likes of Thalyssra, Tyrande, Mordant Evenshade, Malfurion Stormrage - all 10k years old, not to mention Lor'themar, Sylvannas, and Khagar has to lead?

Make no mistake, I'm waiting to see how night elves come out the heroes here, or any elf for that matter. Thalyssra has the best shot, Illidan is the promised one - but what will eventually happen... it would be Khadgar, then Medivh steps in, Gul'dan, and we'll have a Thrall cameo somewhere

Anyway, saying that the nightborne resistance has really tried, still not enough. Ofc they are not going to eclipse humans with a new race, even if it is a night elven based one like the nightborne for all the wonder they bring.

[Deleted]

I totally hope that the Warden will fully rejoin Night Elf Community again after Legion.
The Warden would be a pretty nice interpretation for the Night Elf Paladin. Just give them a Umbra Crescent as Level 20 Weapon (which would be fair as the Horde Paladins got 2 different Paladin Class Quests and the Alliance only 1), put in some Wardenlike Set, which shouldn't be too difficult as I assume that the extra parts of armors like claws in Hunter T19 oder extra plates will become standart and we have playable Warden and a good Lore for Night elf Paladins.

[Bathory]

Ya know, saying something out loud doesn't make it true. I'd love it if this circlejerk of "I read it on the internet so it must be true" would start to fade away. Seriously though, have you been playing with your eyes closed? Have you been playing at all?

[Toppy]

The whole franchise started with Orcs & Humans. What did you expect?

I know right.

The two least popular games in the series are about Orcs vs Humans! Therefore that should be the focus. Disregard how the series got most of its popularity in WC3 where the Orcs changed drastically and many new races were given focus.

[Highwhale]

Did you saw paladin T19? The kilt from this set is used for Warden's mail robe btw :P

[Syegfryed]

The pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans. "That's always gotta be what Warcraft is about."

and when they decide to change this, the history goes to the mud

like, they can focus on other races too, they should focus on others races too, but when you "break" those pillars is a damn joke ( all the hole thing about the warchief not being orc while the alliance is always centered on the human king/kingdom, or the high king( human) is bullshit)

also pains me how people keep saying blizz only know to write about orcs ( or the expansions are orcs themed only) but since half of pandaria, all lore abouts the orcs of the horde is nonexisten or horrible

[ravenmoon]

I totally hope that the Warden will fully rejoin Night Elf Community again after Legion.
The Warden would be a pretty nice interpretation for the Night Elf Paladin. Just give them a Umbra Crescent as Level 20 Weapon (which would be fair as the Horde Paladins got 2 different Paladin Class Quests and the Alliance only 1), put in some Wardenlike Set, which shouldn't be too difficult as I assume that the extra parts of armors like claws in Hunter T19 oder extra plates will become standart and we have playable Warden and a good Lore for Night elf Paladins.

they'd have to do something like SWTOR does, in that it's the same class, but many of the abilities change name to fit. Warden could also be a type of rogue class. that could work also.

in another world, I remember someone saying that they would have introduced both Warden and Demon hunters - with female elves being able to be Wardens, and male elves demon hunters - that would have rocked - effectively the same class, the abilities dressed differently.

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Ya know, saying something out loud doesn't make it true. I'd love it if this circlejerk of "I read it on the internet so it must be true" would start to fade away. Seriously though, have you been playing with your eyes closed? Have you been playing at all?

/10 it happens so often, but then again, you can't blame posters for putting down opinions or suggestions and then others taking them as a done deal.

[pateuvasiliu]

Well, trolls and taurens are stupid and primitive. Don't flame me pls.

Tauren are arguably smarter than orcs. Despite their... let's call them traditional technology, they seemingly craft their own guns.

They're also able to control their rage, something a lot of orcs can't do.

Honestly tauren are just smarter, stronger orcs.

[Deleted]

they'd have to do something like SWTOR does, in that it's the same class, but many of the abilities change name to fit. Warden could also be a type of rogue class. that could work also.

in another world, I remember someone saying that they would have introduced both Warden and Demon hunters - with female elves being able to be Wardens, and male elves demon hunters - that would have rocked - effectively the same class, the abilities dressed differently.

I think it would only need glyphs to make the Warden fit as a Paladin. Storywise, the Warden and the Paladin fit together the best. Warden are simply like more consequent Retribution Paladins and why even gain their power through faith. Warden as Night Elf Paladins would be the opportunity to give the Paladin a blinklike abillity, something they could really need in PvP. Giving them the old Retri Guardian of Ancient kings with a Glyph for Avatar of Vengeance. Give them holy Wrath back as a Holy Power building AOE, glyph, Fan of Knives Animation, put the Umbra Crescent, that is already in the files as normal weapon as we see with the Warden Recrutes, as Night Elf Version of the 2h Weapon for the 20 Paladin quest in...everything's perfect.

And Male Wardens could be also explained too, as Jarod is the de Jure Leader of the Wardens (while Maiev leads them de facto), so if the now united Shadowsong siblings return to Darnassus and train new Wardens, it would be pretty possible that they allow male Wardens.

[StormyMaverick]

It's because no one would take a main Panda character serious thanks to Kung Fu Panda!

[Deleted]

It's because no one would take a main Panda character serious thanks to Kung Fu Panda!

The only Pandaren Blizzard established as to be taken serious are the Shado Pan.

[Al Gorefiend]

Tauren are arguably smarter than orcs. Despite their... let's call them traditional technology, they seemingly craft their own guns.

They're also able to control their rage, something a lot of orcs can't do.

Honestly tauren are just smarter, stronger orcs.

How do you know elves and gnomes aren't the stupid ones? Maybe Tauren stick to their tribalistic roots because they've seen the devastation the Arcane causes and the pollution technology creates? Tauren aren't dumb, just simple, like Pandaren. They just sit back and let elves kill themselves over and over again with wells.

[Littleraven]

Pretty much this, Blizzard is either incapable or flat out does not want to write about other races because we're always "going back to Warcraft's roots" with the same boring generic Orcs V Humans. Legion seems to be the first time this isn't the case but we'll see how long that lasts.

Or you know any time they try people piss and moan about it. THAT DOESN'T FIT IN MY WARCRAFT! Mists of Pandaria (while it ended up being very Orcs versus Humans) started off completely new with totally new themes and characters. But nope. People tear it down.

To the OP though. Warcraft has a TON of important non human or orc characters. Everything they have been building toward over the years is pushing that. The Orcs and Humans have almost nothing to do with the Legion and the greater conflict going on right now. Sure the Orcs were used as an instruments but we have the Night Elves and Draenei as major players right now as well as the Worgen and Forsaken. All of which have been getting fleshed out for years at this point. Maybe not always in game but the lore is all there.

[thesentinelblue]

It's because no one would take a main Panda character serious thanks to Kung Fu Panda!

If you say my boi here, Nomi isn't a main character. He's gonna keep burning ya food.

[themaelstorm]

First, why should the lore be enforced for that?
Tauren do not have much because today's tauren are quite passive overall.

Humans are an ambitious race. So are orcs. This is why they have the spotlight.

But it's plain wrong to say they are the ONLY ONES that are important.

Look at the heroes until WoW: (non orc-human ones) Illidan, Malfurion, Tyrande, Muradin, Sylvanas, Maiev, Chen, Rexxar (he is half ogre), Kael'thas
I'd say Zul'jin is a pretty important character. Garona is half-orc but I'll count her on the orc side.
Look at the ones we learned in WoW:
Jarod Shadowsong, super important person from the past. His "time" was then but we have other nelves around taking the lead.
Falstad, Magni and Brann. I don't think I have to tell you how pivotal Magni is. Brann has been around doing things since vanilla.
Vol'jin was the one who lead the Horde resistance to overthrow Garrosh.
Huln Highmountain, another important person from past.
Kinndy, Jaina's apprentice, was a gnome. It was her death that actually drove Jaina past the line of patience. Yes, Kinndy is rather passive (she does fight and stuff) but still she has a place.
Magatha Grimtotem, not in a good way, but she is the reason for a big problem within the Horde.
Then you have Mekkatorque of course and do not forget that a lot of alliance machinery is Gnome ingenuity, likewise with Horde and goblins.
We have Silas, head of Darkmoon Faire.


I can go on. And if you mean if everything is "about" those races, I'll remind you
Gates of Ahn'Qiraj
All the stories about troll raids
Pretty much all of Pandaria
Druidism

I'll just laugh at people who show orcs vs humans and say "lol see blizzard is not capable".

Obviously orcs vs human lies at the heart of warcraft, but this has evolved so much and with so many stories.
Again, they are the leaders and the ambitious counterparts. This is the heart of the conflict.

[Koryn123]

What Blizzard doesn't do very often though, is show WHY non-orc/human races are bothering to stay in the faction when really all it does is hurt them because they're being used by the orcs and humans as weapons against each other over orc/human grudges.

The Blood Elves had no reason to fight the Alliance anywhere in Cataclysm apart from being members of the Horde and thus had to help their allies settle their petty feuds. Same with MoP, until the Purge happened which did a great job of showing why the Blood Elves were doing stuff, but they just abandoned that plot thread that got everyone so invested because they were afraid of making one group of fans mad at the outcome. So they waited until Legion to shove the Sunreavers into the mud and force us to pretend that the Sunreavers would ever trust the Kirin Tor again, or want to be a part of them again so much that they're willing to bend over backwards and lick the humans' boots, while the humans are completely indifferent to them and don't feel they should apologize at all, despite this being the second time they've stood by and done nothing while a racist bigoted leader rounded them up unjustly.

Cata had more for the other races like Night Elves of course they were fighting because the Horde were invading their territory, but in MoP, really the only people who really belonged on Pandaria fighting each other over petty issues was the orcs and humans. When my Blood Elf paladin went to the Temple of the White Tiger in Kun-Lai and underwent the trial to purge the Sha of Hatred from himself, and it manifested itself as Varian Wrynn, I was like "...what...?"


I'd be surprised if my blood elf paladin was more than vaguely aware that the humans' king had even returned from his long disappearance, or even knew his name, or what he looked like.

I highly doubt that my Blood Elf paladin from literally as far away on the continent as you could possibly get from Stormwind, where they've never had any contact whatsoever, would hate Varian Wrynn most of all above all others in all their memory of hated individuals who've actually caused them misfortune. That quest should have been different for every race, not just Varian for Horde, Garrosh for Alliance.

It should have been something like this:

Orc: Varian, or Gul'dan/Mannoroth perhaps, because corrupted the orcs.

Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem, for "blessing" Garrosh's axe, making Cairne die from a quick-acting paralytic poison that left him defenseless to Garrosh. She took Cairne from them, and killed a lot of people in her hostile takeover of Thunder Bluff, so I'd say they should hate her a lot.

Troll: Zalazane because he controlled a lot of Darkspear as his minions and got them killed, and also killed a lot of free Darkspear who tried to save them. Or perhaps Hakkar? Though, granted, they haven't had any personal contact with him. Maybe a Zandalari, because they were fighting them in Cataclysm and MoP.

Goblin: I think it'd be funny for it to have been Gallywix. He did ruin their chance to become Trade Prince/Princess.

Pandaren: A mogu to represent the mogu, or maybe the mantid. Seriously, they make even less sense to hate Varian/Garrosh enough for it to be their manifestation, at least before Garrosh corrupted part of the Vale.

Forsaken: Arthas, because shattered their kingdom and doomed them to their current state.

Blood Elf: Arthas, obviously, because shattered their kingdom, murdered their king, tainted their Sunwell to raise Kel'thuzad, so they were forced to destroy it, murdered 90% of their population, destroyed Silvermoon, cut a bloody swath of destruction along the Dead Scar, apparently never to be healed ever (though I doubt the equivalent of a college senior's capstone project is concrete proof that it can never be healed. They haven't even tried bringing in the Cenarion Circle, Argent Crusade, and Earthen Ring to give it a try. They're doing great work on the Western Plaguelands), forced them to burn the forests along Eversong Woods (Scorched Grove) to halt the plague's corruption of the land from spreading from the Ghostlands, and he killed and cursed Sylvanas, a beloved hero of their people who gave everything she had to protect them.


Humans: Garrosh, I guess. They'd see him as a lot like the warlords of the First and Second Wars, so might attribute their hatred of them to him. Stormwind might also hate Arthas though, as I'm sure they have a few survivors from there, or a lot of them lived in Lordaeron as refugees after the Horde destroyed Stormwind in the First War.

Night Elves: Azshara.

Dwarves: Dagran Thaurissan perhaps. None of the playable ones are Dark Irons, and Moira and the Dark Irons joining them doesn't erase old hatreds of past leaders.

Gnomes: Sicco Thermaplug, for irradiating like 80% of their population was it? He turned a lot of them into Leper Gnomes, anyway. And that's no good.

Worgen: Either Arugal for summoning the Worgen from the Emerald Dream (they may not know that Genn ordered him to do it) eventually ending up with them cursed, or Sylvanas for attacking Gilneas and killing Prince Liam, because they wouldn't know that she didn't have a choice in the matter as she was under orders from Garrosh, and may not care even if they did know.

Draenei: Kil'jaeden and/or Archimonde, for all the people they've killed/manipulated to be killed in their pursuit of the Draenei across the cosmos. Or perhaps Blackhand or Gul'dan, though Draenei seem like the more understanding type and know that the orcs were just another pawn of Kil'jaeden no different from any other that has been manipulated to kill them. In the moment, of course, they hate them, like Maraad did, but after 30 years, I doubt they hold the current Horde orcs responsible, or at least they aren't still angry at them, after they've rebelled against the Legion and fought them countless times.

[Nirathiel]

Worgen: Either Arugal for summoning the Worgen from the Emerald Dream (they may not know that Genn ordered him to do it) eventually ending up with them cursed, or Sylvanas for attacking Gilneas and killing Prince Liam, because they wouldn't know that she didn't have a choice in the matter as she was under orders from Garrosh, and may not care even if they did know.

Garrosh's orders were to invade Gilneas not kill xcharacter, or use the plague on the city, so if anything the worgen have more reason to have Sylvanas as a boss in that scenario than Arugal. Other than that I really like your idea.

[Koryn123]

Garrosh's orders were to invade Gilneas not kill xcharacter, or use the plague on the city, so if anything the worgen have more reason to have Sylvanas as a boss in that scenario than Arugal. Other than that I really like your idea.

Yeah, but Liam was an accident. She meant to kill Genn to rob the Gilneans of their leader to make it easier to defeat them, and Liam jumped in the way of the arrow. Doesn't mean they wouldn't hate her, but it's not like she wanted to invade Gilneas at all. I'm sure she'd have preferred they stay behind their wall. It would have made it much easier to defeat the scattered remnants of humans in Silverpine, Hillsbrad, and Arathi if the wall hadn't come down and the worgen came out and convinced some Hillsbrad humans to become worgen, becoming much more difficult foes in the process.

I suppose Arugal's actions were probably not as well-known to the average Gilnean, so Sylvanas would most likely be what their hatred manifests itself as.


Yeah, it would be a cool idea to implement, wouldn't it? I really like it when you can tell Blizzard put a lot of effort into something in order to make sure all players would have something from it. The mentality of most of the Cata and MoP quests, and even WoD, seem to assume you're playing either an orc, or a human. Because unless the group you're doing those quests for is determinedly non-orc or human, it's gonna be all about the orcs and humans and their problems. Never a blend.

Like in the Jade Forest when you go with Lorewalker Cho to that shrine where you honor your ancestors or something, his dialogue is different for everyone, as are the shades of your ancestors. Blood Elves get a row of High Elves, then a few Highborne Night Elves at the back, which was a really cool touch. Forsaken get the same, except humans, then Vrykul at the back. The others just get their own race cuz obviously.

But that quest was really neat, and I liked it a lot because it was the story recognizing that my character was not a stupid boneheaded warmongering orc shouting lok'tar ogar rawr me smash me hate humans rawr. It was something distinctly Blood Elf-related, and nothing else. Something that they hadn't had since their introduction in BC (because I don't see buying your dungeon currency gear from Blood Elf NPCs who don't do anything story related besides just sitting around in Dalaran as major. Nor do I see doing a few tiny quests for the Reliquary that never seems to actually be important as major either).

Sometimes I feel like Blizzard just really really really doesn't want to do anything that would require a Blood Elf building model because they don't want to use a BC model in today's HD graphics they use, but they also really really really don't want to have to make any new Blood Elf building models. Nope. HD Orc mud/log/poop/stone/tusk/skull hut #48,863 that looks like a pile of crappy boxes stacked really high ("Arcane sanctum" in Talador, but really just orc mudhut) is a MUCH better use of their valuable time and resources.

Anything having to do with Blood Elves, they just give them a tent and call that a defensible structure. Even Blood Elf bases just get tents these days, or a singular wagon. Or a blood elf-red type curtain on an ugly as hell spiky orc hut in Warspear.

[Trassk]

Pretty much this, Blizzard is either incapable or flat out does not want to write about other races because we're always "going back to Warcraft's roots" with the same boring generic Orcs V Humans. Legion seems to be the first time this isn't the case but we'll see how long that lasts.

Oh what, you mean like in legion, where three of the fives zones are elf based, the main heroes and villains that don't just disappear are all elves, one zone is a complete fan service to Tyrande and her waifu, while everything else being a fan service to how awesome and amazing Illidan is?

Yeah legion is soooo about orcs are humans

[Koryn123]

Oh what, you mean like in legion, where three of the fives zones are elf based, the main heroes and villains that don't just disappear are all elves, one zone is a complete fan service to Tyrande and her waifu, while everything else being a fan service to how awesome and amazing Illidan is?

Yeah legion is soooo about orcs are humans

Eh, it's more that humans can't seem to resist having their fingers in everyone's puddings. In 7.1, Khadgar swoops in and is suddenly the leader of the force consisting of the Blood, High, and Night Elves, along with the Nightfallen Resistance.

Like...why? Why not Thalyssra, who's been the leader for everything there up to this point? And if not Thalyssra, why not Tyrande who lived in Suramar? I mean, besides the fact that she's an inept military commander who's never won a war on her own in her life, only lost wars then woke up Malfurion to win the war for her then go back to sleep.

Khadgar being all up in everyone's face for everything is just getting tiresome, and it'd be nice if Blizzard would let certain stories be isolated stories. Like in Vanilla, everyone had their own separate problems they could deal with on their own without calling a big neutral organization for help. The Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn were fighting the Scourge in the Plaguelands. The Blood Elves were fighting the Amani and Scourge in Quel'thalas. The Forsaken were fighting the Scourge in Tirisfal Glades and Silverpine. The Tauren, Orcs, and Trolls (they make the most sense geologically) were fighting the Scourge in Razorfen Downs.

You didn't have one single guy who seemed to be everywhere at once and knew everything that was going on running the show everywhere back then. But in 7.1, Khadgar's gonna somehow be leading Dalaran, personally leading the elves in the fight in Suramar despite not being personally involved at all in anything there up to that point, and still somehow have the time to deal with whatever's going on in Karazhan where Blizzard brings back Medivh, adding yet another extremely overpowered human to the very short list of powerful mages being given any focus these days. So the elves being good at magic being common knowledge will be a thing of the past, because they're only ever dependent on Dalaran when they really shouldn't be.

Basically, Blizzard hardly ever shows any playable group as being able to do anything on their own anymore. They almost always have to be led by the humans/orcs.