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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Wouldn't say he was wasted completely. He (and Blood Elves in general) most likely had the most lore development in entire TBC. Not the best use of the character, but still. Vashj on the other hand, was wasted completely. All she did was saying how the Highborne will reclaim their rightful place and then dropped dead. We never even learned what the hell were the Naga doing in Zangarmarsh and Serpentshrine Cavern.
    Eh. I suppose they had plenty of spotlight, but that doesn't mean it was all good spotlight. Kael'thas certainly had tons more potential, and much more personality than Vashj did. All Vashj had was being Illidan's loyal servant, so as he was our enemy, so was she.

    But Kael'thas actually had a big group of a playable race on Azeroth loyal to him. He was a racial leader. And Blizzard squandered him so raiders could kill more notable players for their epic purples because they were whining that Majordomo of the Lich King, Lord of the Firelands, Prince and Princess of the Black Dragonflight now essentially its leaders as Deathwing was out of commission, and a freaking Old God weren't notable enough.

    And it's my headcanon that they were trying to build a new Well of Eternity with the water. Think about it. Vashj was gathering tons of water, and Kael'thas was gathering tons of mana. They each had a vial from the Well of Eternity. Together, they could make an extremely powerful source of arcane magic, one that would serve the Illidari well in their fight against the Legion. I believe Illidan had a third vial from the Well of Eternity (unless that was used to make that big pool of souls thing in Black Temple that Kanrethad Ebonlocke talked about in the green fire chain).

    So together, the new Well of Eternity would be stronger than the one beneath Nordrassil. Both would be made with three vials of water, but the one in Outland would have the added bonus of all that mana Kael'thas harvested from the Nether.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Pretending that were correct would possibly lessen the inherent "evil" in her act but wouldn't necessarily annul it, either. As for the curse and the choice, it's my understanding that the dead raised by her Val'kyr are only given the choice to serve the Forsaken, not the choice of whether or not they're to be raised in the first place. They do seem to get a choice about remaining undead or being "returned to the grave" in some capacity - but the deck is still stacked against them, and the choice given after already being corrupted into Necromantic undeath seems to me to be mostly the illusion of choice.
    How? The humans they raise weren't given the option to not be corrupted Vrykul descendants either. Or be born. The offer the Forsaken give is the most they've been given in terms of their state of life or even being alive in the first place. The corrupted Titanforged are corrupted some more while they have zero input, consciousness or anything. So what? One of the choices is reverting just that and letting them rest in the Shadowlands again. How is that just "in some capacity"? Trying to downplay the choice of the Forsaken that the Word of God officially confirmed with "hey, it totally doesn't count because they don't give them choice before they are resurrected" (how is that even supposed to work is unknown to anyone) always seemed rather off to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    and brought to near death by one Necromancer and saved by players. Hecular would maker her eat her own face.
    While mocking her in his fabulous voice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Terenas appears to still be respected - or at least the Forsaken left his monument untouched in his throne room where he is eulogized as blameless for the deeds of his son. The second couplet itself may be an addition by the Forsaken to the original eulogy.

    "Here lies King Terenas Menethil II -- Last True King of Lordaeron.
    Great were his deeds -- long was his reign -- unthinkable was his death.
    'May the Father lie blameless for the deeds of the son.
    May the bloodied crown stay lost and forgotten.'"

    I don't know the same feeling would hold true for Calia, but Terenas at least is remembered as a great king despite fathering Arthas.
    Ehh, unknown who built it. The Forsaken left most of thee surface area untouched and mostly ignored it. Them ignoring the monument doesn't say much about their attitude towards Terenas one way or another. It's not like they have the capability to pee on it anymore. So does the plate saying he's blameless for Arthas' actions. That's just historical fact. And with his body not being there the monument is largely meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #103
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    by looking at her and the lich king you can see more differences than that however.
    Garrosh Hellscream says: What difference is there between you and the Lich King now?
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I serve the Horde.
    http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_W...f_Cometh#Notes

  4. #104
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Obviously thats how she responded. She still isnt a lich king serving the Horde though. There are many things the Lich king did that Sylvanas hasn't even begun to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  5. #105
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How? The humans they raise weren't given the option to not be corrupted Vrykul descendants either. Or be born. The offer the Forsaken give is the most they've been given in terms of their state of life or even being alive in the first place. The corrupted Titanforged are corrupted some more while they have zero input, consciousness or anything. So what? One of the choices is reverting just that and letting them rest in the Shadowlands again. How is that just "in some capacity"? Trying to downplay the choice of the Forsaken that the Word of God officially confirmed with "hey, it totally doesn't count because they don't give them choice before they are resurrected" (how is that even supposed to work is unknown to anyone) always seemed rather off to me.
    One's heritage and birth aren't a choice in any case, so not really an applicable comparison. But I think of it this way: Sylvanas knows exactly what undeath entails. She remembers the feelings of violation and essential wrongness as she was turned into a banshee, and the sense of lingering corruption that remains with her still. She's seen (via the Val'kyr) exactly what happened to her from an external point of view, that she was ripped from a pleasant afterlife and condemned to existence as a colorless imitation of what she once was. With all those things in mind, the question one would ask is "why would anyone sane even offer this as a choice, and who would ever accept it?" The answer seems to be that they don't - the thing is done and then the choice offered, and this is often after the period of rage and disorientation newly-raised undead experience. The choice is largely an illusion to mask the unpleasantness of the reality.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    "why would anyone sane even offer this as a choice, and who would ever accept it?" The answer seems to be that they don't - the thing is done and then the choice offered, and this is often after the period of rage and disorientation newly-raised undead experience. The choice is largely an illusion to mask the unpleasantness of the reality.
    The rage is only there for the ones who were killed in combat. We see undead who seem to be perfectly rational and either agree or disagree with being undead.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  7. #107
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    The rage is only there for the ones who were killed in combat. We see undead who seem to be perfectly rational and either agree or disagree with being undead.
    As a rarity, the general rule of thumb in the Warcraft universe appears to be violent death in combat.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #108
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As a rarity, the general rule of thumb in the Warcraft universe appears to be violent death in combat.
    the overwhelming majority of new Forsaken have come from mass graves in Lordaeron.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  9. #109
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    the overwhelming majority of new Forsaken have come from mass graves in Lordaeron.
    Who died to the Scourge in a variety of horrible and terrible ways, probably at the hands of loved ones already converted by the Plague?
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #110
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Who died to the Scourge in a variety of horrible and terrible ways, probably at the hands of loved ones already converted by the Plague?
    Its been what, 15 years since then? They arent being resurrected amidst a battle they just died in.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  11. #111
    Deleted
    Two things:

    Yeah, newly risen Forsaken are free to do what they want.

    The whole raise with free Will stuff is portrayed in a shitty and cheap way outside of the starting Zone.

  12. #112
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Its been what, 15 years since then? They arent being resurrected amidst a battle they just died in.
    Does that matter? I'd think being ripped out of the Light would be even more painful in such a case, although the precise ramification of the passing of time concerning undeath isn't quite known. In most cases the newly risen seem to be unaware of time that's passed - for them the emotions and turmoil would still be fresh.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Does that matter? I'd think being ripped out of the Light would be even more painful in such a case, although the precise ramification of the passing of time concerning undeath isn't quite known. In most cases the newly risen seem to be unaware of time that's passed - for them the emotions and turmoil would still be fresh.
    Id say because the ones raised in the starting zone are coherent that time passed does count. And Blizzard did say "forsaken raised in battle"
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This quirk of her nature may be part of the reason why the Loa chose her to lead the Horde - knowing that while she acts out of self-interest, what she may do may also spell the difference victory and defeat (despite her intentions).
    There are more than one Windrunners, maybe Vol'jin got mistaken.

    Although the other two living Windrunners would most likely eradicate the Horde if they could. Maybe that is Loa's wish... since the Horde and its ever-looming treachery will always be an unreliable risk element in the defense of Azeroth.

  15. #115
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Id say because the ones raised in the starting zone are coherent that time passed does count. And Blizzard did say "forsaken raised in battle"
    Difficult to say, really. I'd imagine grappling with people you once knew who were converted into ghouls and dying in the process would be "battle," as I'd doubt it has to be as specific as "full-scale military conflict" to qualify.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    There are more than one Windrunners, maybe Vol'jin got mistaken.

    Although the other two living Windrunners would most likely eradicate the Horde if they could. Maybe that is Loa's wish... since the Horde and its ever-looming treachery will always be an unreliable risk element in the defense of Azeroth.
    I doubt the Loa would elect an individual that didn't have Darkspear tribe's interest in mind, and if they wanted to annihilate the Horde for whatever reason I don't think they would've aided Vol'jin as much as they have. Faction politics aside, the Loa seem to be pretty much on the side of Vol'jin and his people - I doubt they want the Horde to fall, or be brought to ruin as a result of his death decree.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #116
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Difficult to say, really. I'd imagine grappling with people you once knew who were converted into ghouls and dying in the process would be "battle," as I'd doubt it has to be as specific as "full-scale military conflict" to qualify.
    most of these people died in the plague or any other thing. They are raising any grave they can find in Lordaeron. I doubt every single person that died had a violent death, and the way it was worded, it wouldnt matter either way seeing as they weren't raised mid battle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    There are more than one Windrunners, maybe Vol'jin got mistaken.

    Although the other two living Windrunners would most likely eradicate the Horde if they could. Maybe that is Loa's wish... since the Horde and its ever-looming treachery will always be an unreliable risk element in the defense of Azeroth.
    Top fucking kek.
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2016-10-20 at 09:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  17. #117
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    by looking at her and the lich king you can see more differences than that however.
    Well there are at least two major differences, but what comes to her methods and goals... not so sure.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    Well there are at least two major differences, but what comes to her methods and goals... not so sure.
    Necromancy ala Warden Stillwater is Outlawed and is punishable by death for example and these were pretty much in line with common scourge tactics.

  19. #119
    Banned Highwhale's Avatar
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    val'kyr queen!!! for sylvaanas for lordaeron!!

    cry alliances
    What the point of this post?

    and brought to near death by one Necromancer and saved by players. Hecular would maker her eat her own face.
    Sylvanas was shot by simple human.

    She is one of the most interesting leaders that Blizzard cared to develop, unlike most of them were left sleepwalking through WoW.
    What so interesting about Sylvanas's story? Im got killed > hurr durr Arthas > Arthas dead what i should to do hurr durr? > im gonna suicide > it was stupid idea > hey i will become like arthas and start resurrect people against their will hurr durr! Sylvanas since begining is comic character.

    Obviously thats how she responded. She still isnt a lich king serving the Horde though. There are many things the Lich king did that Sylvanas hasn't even begun to do.
    Like what?

    Resurrecting people against their will? Check.

    Attacking and destroying neutral kingdoms? Check.

    Killing/trying to kill your family members? Check.

    Spreading plague and undeath? Check.

    Killing innocent peoples? Check.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    PS Main problem of Forsaken is Sylvanus. Many people dont see them without Banshee Queen. Legion is great opportunity to split them.
    How about a giant no? As a forsaken player, I see no problem with her take in Legion. The lantern that was going to save her will also save the rest of the forsaken.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post

    Resurrecting people against their will? Check.
    This is what undead is...resurrection against your own will. Some accept, some don't...Either way, they're undead now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    Attacking and destroying neutral kingdoms? Check.

    Killing/trying to kill your family members? Check.

    Spreading plague and undeath? Check.

    Killing innocent peoples? Check.
    Expanding territory is not a problem. This isn't World of Moralcraft. This is World of Warcraft. So long as Banshee Queen serves the interests of Forsaken and Horde, I see no problem with any sort of aggression.

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