No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Zalamander]

Quoting myself: Happily enjoying the world-feels-alive immersion and hustle-and-bustle that comes from players moving back and forth along the ground between flight paths to WQ / other ground based objectives etc. If flight was enabled, everyone would simply fly from A to B - and what im doing/enjoying right now would dissappear.

Its very satisfying right now to land at some random flight path, and run towards some obscure WQ objective somwhere - and see tons of people along the way (on their ground mounts) interacting/navigating the world alongside you. If we all fly, everything in between is lost, and whats in between is what makes for a better game.

And I already explain to you countless time that this is not a strong enough reason to punish us who loves flying since they can just add lots of player looking NPCs on the ground instead that runs between the flight paths. That's how meaningful it feels to run past all these random crossrealm players you never meet again.

[TyrianFC]

And I already explain to you countless time that this is not a strong enough reason to punish us who loves flying since they can just add lots of player looking NPCs on the ground instead that runs between the flight paths. That's how meaningful it feels to run past all these random crossrealm players you never meet again.

Yes, it is. Thats why blizzard is doing it. Furthermore - I don't care whether I will or won't see players again, I enjoy seeing the world look and feel alive with players going about their business on the ground.

[Deleted]

Quoting myself: Happily enjoying the world-feels-alive immersion and hustle-and-bustle that comes from players moving back and forth along the ground between flight paths to WQ / other ground based objectives etc. If flight was enabled, everyone would simply fly from A to B - and what im doing/enjoying right now would dissappear.

Its very satisfying right now to land at some random flight path, and run towards some obscure WQ objective somwhere - and see tons of people along the way (on their ground mounts) interacting/navigating the world alongside you. If we all fly, everything in between is lost, and whats in between is what makes for a better game.

The importance of the above to the quality of the game, trumps all your rubbish pseudo-'points' 1-5 (which aren't true to begin with - but i'll entertain the illusion that we're believing them for now).

So you enjoy that other people are you scenery? Boy, that's a great kind of appreciation.

Anyway NOTHING would change AT ALL with flying. People would still gather at WQ objectives. Yes, they would not reach these on the ground, but they would be there, and you would surely see them because you would also travel in the air. And they would probably even be there at objectives which are currently underused because many people think that they are not worth their time in the current travel system.

How people tend to forget things which are only 1-2 expansions back is very baffling. Tanaan was crawling with people even when more and more players got Pathfinder, because you could gear up alts so quickly. Daily quest areas in MoP, especially Golden Lotus at the beginning of the expansion, but also the ones for Tillers were full with people and with constant pvp (was my last expansion on a pvp server). This was in an expansion where flight was unlocked from the beginning.

People come to areas where they have things to do. They can do things only on the ground. You only don't see them when there is nothing to do anymore.

[TyrianFC]

So you enjoy that other people are you scenery? Boy, that's a great kind of appreciation.

Yes, of course. Are you trying to look silly on purpose or something?

WoW is an mmorpg - so you shouldnt be surprised to learn that *gasp* people want (and like) to see other people in a massively multiplayer online RPG.... Is this some sort of revelation to people?

When I first started playing WoW in vanilla, part of the reason to buy it was because im entering the world of Azeroth. And there will be other people in it alongside me. Those people have (before Legion) dissappeared into Garrisons and flying mounts. Now they're all back on the ground where they belong and a part of the world again - and it's great.

I enjoyed playing Skyrim, but it still felt like a dead world to me. (Simply having npcs around doesnt to the trick i'm afraid). I prefer the MMO aspect of WoW, and thats why its important to have real players around - and in the case for WoW specifically - on the ground where they belong, because WoW was and is a ground-based game. It was sold that way in vanilla, Blizzard indeed flirted with flight for a few expansions TBC onwards, then (more recently) have reverted back to the original (vanilla) mindset after realising WoW is better as a ground based game.

[DisstortioNz]

come on Blizzard seriously bring back flying i love my black proto drake

[Deleted]

To be honest as i saw this thread it was the first time i realised that there are no flying mounts in Legion. I really don't miss them.

[Thimagryn]

Judging from the responses, there are a fair amount of people asking for flight to either come at the end of the expac, or not at all. Though this is just a tiny little fraction of opinions on a 3rd party site where most players never visit. So it's difficult to assess what the sample really represents. Kinda like 5 people who want flight.

You also want flight, so you're part of that group. It's really not difficult to assess. The only difference is you want it later than some other people do.

[Zalamander]

WoW is an mmorpg - so you shouldnt be surprised to learn that *gasp* people want (and like) to see other people in a massively multiplayer online RPG.... Is this some sort of revelation to people?

When I first started playing WoW in vanilla, part of the reason to buy it was because im entering the world of Azeroth. And there will be other people in it alongside me. Those people have (before Legion) dissappeared into Garrisons and flying mounts. Now they're all back on the ground where they belong and a part of the world again - and it's great.

Some things you like many others misunderstood about what an MMO is. Its a game in a world where you exist together with other players yes. However its perfectly fine to trying to mimic the real world, that's actually what most MMOs aim for. A player shouldn't be forced to interact with other players in the MMO unless they choose to, just like in the real world. Sure there are other people, but you don´t have to team up with someone to go to the grocery store. And in the real world, people who like going to adventure in the wilderness don't do it to see other people there. pretty much the opposite.
It doesn't really make much sense seeing tons of people running around in the wilderness, it really just looks wrong, very wrong.
Sure its interesting to see other players in the world, I used to enjoy that as well. But just seeing hundreds of them, from different realms so that I can't really get to know them or trade with them even anyway? no, that's not interesting at all. Enabling CRZ in current content was a hug mistake from blizzard IMO. I understand that did it from desperation that the realm pops had gone down too much and they were afraid people would complain there was too little people in the world.

Now I'm gonna use MoP as a reference. since at least first half of MoP I think was one of the best expansions ever in WoW. much because there was flying. There was no CRZ and there was tons of people in the world, I ran into people everywhere, flying was not a "problem" on that part. The reason it works with flying is whats already been said. as long as there are point of interest out there, people will gather at them. World quests is one such thing. WoD had no such thing as it efficiently killed MoPs things.
MoPs point of interests where world treasures with long re-spawn and rare spawns that could be killed over and over again for chance of interesting loot. That change to rare spawns in the world was one of the greatest flaws of WoD and I warned them about it right away in the beta. I thought it was a bug or something and I knew it would lead to no one going out any more... and I was right.

TL;DR: no flying doesn't make a difference, as long as there are interesting content in the world, you will run into people there.

This is not the reason blizzard doesn't like flying. That reason is their new on rails story design with linear progression and smaller zones. Making flying a "problem", for them. This new design is terrible for an MMO in every way, flying or not. Sadly this thread is about flying tho so I wont explain why and make this post three times longer than it already is.

[Deleted]

Yes, of course. Are you trying to look silly on purpose or something?

WoW is an mmorpg - so you shouldnt be surprised to learn that *gasp* people want (and like) to see other people in a massively multiplayer online RPG.... Is this some sort of revelation to people?

When I first started playing WoW in vanilla, part of the reason to buy it was because im entering the world of Azeroth. And there will be other people in it alongside me. Those people have (before Legion) dissappeared into Garrisons and flying mounts. Now they're all back on the ground where they belong and a part of the world again - and it's great.

I enjoyed playing Skyrim, but it still felt like a dead world to me. (Simply having npcs around doesnt to the trick i'm afraid). I prefer the MMO aspect of WoW, and thats why its important to have real players around - and in the case for WoW specifically - on the ground where they belong, because WoW was and is a ground-based game. It was sold that way in vanilla, Blizzard indeed flirted with flight for a few expansions TBC onwards, then (more recently) have reverted back to the original (vanilla) mindset after realising WoW is better as a ground based game.

For scenery, there are NPCs. If you see me only as your scenery, then you degrade me to a scriped low-profile AI.

If I see other players, then I am used to be wary of them from my years of previous experience, because they tag my questmobs, steal my nodes or even attack me because of PvP. They sometimes annoy me still, when tagging the mobs to get credit, but don't contribute with killing. Thing is, player characters out there behave like bots most of the time. They ride to an objective, do what they need to do, and ride away. They probably wait a bit before engaging a bigger enemy, so they can get help from others. It's still an improvement to the years before, because with the new tagging, people are way more cooperative, but it does not change the fact that everything is very standardized and impersonal.

My enjoyment in WoW only needs other players when a task is too difficult for me alone to complete, or if I want to socialise with my guild buddies or whom ever in the first place. I am quite independent, but I help people if they ask or I recognise that they need help. It's not often the case the other way 'round, why I tend to be self-sufficient in the first place. Seeing people around me is irrelevant for me. And the state of flying is irrelevant to the fact if I notice them or not.

But I also play on a medium server, because I don't like overcrowded places. Honestly, if a quest area has more players than mobs in it, how is this a good thing? Sense of danger goes out of the window because you have to be lucky to get to a mob in time to tag it, before it goes down. I like seeing crowds in cities, though. This is where crowds belong to in the first place. I don't remember much difference between expansions with or without flying in this regard. Ashran was dead because people were sitting in their garrisons.

[Lane]

Blizzard did a half hearted effort to improve flight paths in WoD and argued they cant do it for the other flight paths in the game because of "reasons"

Players noted early on how poor flight paths were in WoD. In legion they threw in the white flag as they have the flight whistle so you can even avoid looking for a flight path and just go afk.

If Blizzard was serious about no flying mounts world they would have made a full court press to improve all flight paths but again that requires time and effort (like it requires for testing flying mounts).

It doesn't seem like Legion FPs are improved, in fact, I'm quite annoyed that direct routes to major zone hubs don't appear to exist like they did in WoD. I mean, if I want to fly from Dalaran to Aszuna I have to pass through about half a dozen different FPs that are only kinda/sorta along the way, definitely not a straight path.

Traversing Legion is also the opposite of WoD. Used to be I'd point myself in the right direction (from any starting point), use Aviana's Feather to launch high up into the sky, and go. Now I have to find the highest ground possible to start, often riding up mountain sides first, and then use toys to maximize the falling/gliding distance. It's like this weird mini-game to travel. Also, while I like the utility of the whistle, the execution of it is so odd. You basically get a 'pass out drunk' effect (blurriness & fade-to-black), which I find jarring. I guess I'm just not accustomed to it yet, but the first time I used it I was like WTF?

If I had flight I would actually be doing all if not most of the WQs offered to me.

This.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've found all of the Legion zones incredibly confusing (aside from terrain issues). I spend more time with my map open than actually looking at the game. It's never been like that in any previous expansion. It's another reason I'd like to have an aerial view of the zones so I can finally get a whole picture in my mind of where everything is.

[Dhrizzle]

Now I'm gonna use MoP as a reference. since at least first half of MoP I think was one of the best expansions ever in WoW. much because there was flying. There was no CRZ and there was tons of people in the world, I ran into people everywhere, flying was not a "problem" on that part. The reason it works with flying is whats already been said. as long as there are point of interest out there, people will gather at them. World quests is one such thing. WoD had no such thing as it efficiently killed MoPs things.
MoPs point of interests where world treasures with long re-spawn and rare spawns that could be killed over and over again for chance of interesting loot. That change to rare spawns in the world was one of the greatest flaws of WoD and I warned them about it right away in the beta. I thought it was a bug or something and I knew it would lead to no one going out any more... and I was right.

TL;DR: no flying doesn't make a difference, as long as there are interesting content in the world, you will run into people there.

This is not the reason blizzard doesn't like flying. That reason is their new on rails story design with linear progression and smaller zones. Making flying a "problem", for them. This new design is terrible for an MMO in every way, flying or not. Sadly this thread is about flying tho so I wont explain why and make this post three times longer than it already is.

The thing is I feel the opposite. The first half of MoP was the worst WoW experience partly because of flight. I appreciated Blizzard trying to make the open world content a bigger part of endgame progression but it came in the form of a load of daily chores that failed to engage me. I didn't mind that mindless sort of content when it just gave minor rewards (like shoulder/head enchants) and was a side activity to raiding or interesting dungeons, but MoP made soared-and-bored gameplay more important whilst providing some of the worst dungeons in WoW's history which is why it remains my least played a expansion.

Also you fail to notice that MoP was barely any bigger than the Broken Isles, certain smaller than Draenor, so your "smaller zones" theory doesn't really hold up. Cata and MoP were also a lot more "on rails" when it came to story so again I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

[Glorious Leader]

It doesn't seem like Legion FPs are improved, in fact, I'm quite annoyed that direct routes to major zone hubs don't appear to exist like they did in WoD. I mean, if I want to fly from Dalaran to Aszuna I have to pass through about half a dozen different FPs that are only kinda/sorta along the way, definitely not a straight path.

Traversing Legion is also the opposite of WoD. Used to be I'd point myself in the right direction (from any starting point), use Aviana's Feather to launch high up into the sky, and go. Now I have to find the highest ground possible to start, often riding up mountain sides first, and then use toys to maximize the falling/gliding distance. It's like this weird mini-game to travel. Also, while I like the utility of the whistle, the execution of it is so odd. You basically get a 'pass out drunk' effect (blurriness & fade-to-black), which I find jarring. I guess I'm just not accustomed to it yet, but the first time I used it I was like WTF?



This.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've found all of the Legion zones incredibly confusing (aside from terrain issues). I spend more time with my map open than actually looking at the game. It's never been like that in any previous expansion. It's another reason I'd like to have an aerial view of the zones so I can finally get a whole picture in my mind of where everything is.

Its not just you. Objectives on the map have very specific routes to them and they are often quite circuitous. If you tred off the beaten path youll find that your mostly fucked.

[-Joker-]

I believe it's being used as an example of how flight can be used to enhance the game-world instead of supposedly trivializing it.

There's a pretty common theme of claiming that flight ruins content, somehow. So it's natural to point to existing examples where that isn't true.

Flight does not ruin it, it trivializes it. There is a difference. Flight makes travel more fun, but instead of facing the Scourge head on at ground level, it was far easier to whip over them, land, do what was necessary, and fly away. Hardly makes for an epic adventure. Then again, we are talking about Legion, not Wrath. If certain posters want to stay on topic, they should reference the current expansion and the effects of flight. Can't accuse me of derailing the topic and then turn right around and talk about forced PVP.

- - - Updated - - -

And I already explain to you countless time that this is not a strong enough reason to punish us who loves flying

No one is being punished. All players are being asked to play the game the way it is being designed. There is a difference. This is a business with a release strategy, not a personal attack on a few hundred people.

- - - Updated - - -

You also want flight, so you're part of that group. It's really not difficult to assess. The only difference is you want it later than some other people do.

I voted for 7.2. I feel that is a reasonable amount of time to experience the content.

[Zephire]

Except that even now there's not actually any choice to be had. Pathfinder part 1 doesn't unlock flying. 7.1 doesn't have flying. And unless 7.2 and onward introduces a massive volume of new content to use flying on, there still really isn't much of a choice.

This is why I keep trying to point out just how bad Pathfinder is.

I agree that pathfinding needs some tuning for how, when and how long it takes but I still think its working well.

[Deleted]

I agree that pathfinding needs some tuning for how, when and how long it takes but I still think its working well.

It's taking way too long. Honestly, I was done with the open world content in a week regards it's novelty factor (except Suramar, but this is endgame and supposed to last longer, hooray for timegating via reputations *sarkasm*). Granted, I had a vacation. Would take me 2 weeks when working then.

The moment you start doing world quests, which are most of the time the exact repetition of leveling quests or simple rare kills, you are technically done with the world content in regards to exploration. You have seen it all, and you focus goes to gear upgrades and AP upgrades for your weapon.

There is no reason to deny flying after finishing a zone with exploration and loremaster achievement, except when you want people to fucking waste their time with travel.

I have never been complaining about having nothing to do. They don't need to punish me because some other people did.

[TyrianFC]

The only way id support flying earlier in expansions, is if they heavily nerfed flight speed or had a sliding scale approach. heres an example:

On initial release and for the first big chunk of an expansion, using a flight path+ground mount should always be the fastest and most convenient path to your location or WQ objective. One current problem with flight is, once unlocked, its so damn fast compared to ground mounts straight off the bat and renders them so inefficient by comparison that nobody even considers them.

- Therefore if flying is allowed earlier, Pathfinder Part 1 would unlock flight with something like flight at 40% ground mount speed. That way you can still technically fly, but you heavily sacrifice efficiency for the sake of convenience. Pro-flyers can still get a lovely mountain screenshot POV that they love, but virtually everyone who wants efficiency will still use ground/FP system

- Patherfinder Part 2 in 7.1 gives you the ability to unlock flight at +80% ground speed max. Most people still use ground mounts because they're still faster and more efficient, but it slides up the 'what i prefer' scale just a little more. And repeat the process until:

- Pathfinder Part X in 7.Y (whatever last preexpansion patch is) lets you unlock flight at +260% ground speed or whatever it is. That way you can get efficiency and convenience, but its right at the end of the expansion and just before a fresh expansion (when people are back on the ground again). This is the point where everyone dissappears into the air and flies - but at this point nobody cares because the expansion is old news, everyones bored etc.

This way , while you could still fly earlier, barely anyone actually will do it because FP/ground is designed to be by far the fastest method. But the pro-flying extremists can still doso if they wish - and dont care about the large efficiency sacrifice in the process.

[Deadite]

This way , while you could still fly earlier, barely anyone actually will do it because FP/ground is designed to be by far the fastest method. But the pro-flying extremists can still doso if they wish - and dont care about the large efficiency sacrifice in the process.

So you are ok to make flying so bad no one would use it rather than just not fly was it available. That is very magnanimous of you sir/madam!

[TyrianFC]

So you are ok to make flying so bad no one would use it rather than just not fly was it available. That is very magnanimous of you sir/madam!

Id prefer it was unavailable completely, but id settle for 'so bad nobody wants to use it'- at least initially. Thats correct - and I consider it a generous compromise on my part.

If you want to be more wild , then lets go crazy together for more fun ideas!!!:

Why not make it so anyone currently using a flying mount is restricted from seeing any herbs/ore nodes, cant see any quest mobs or objectives for quests and WQ, cant communicate in whispers to friends or use public chat channels , cant join any LFD/group queues (and has current queues paused). Maybe even make their character+mount invisible to even them so they can just nonchalantly float around the world without even seeing themselves to get a better view of the scenery!

That way since pro flyers want to disappear from and trivialise from the game world, we'll make sure we help get rid of them completely for the duration of their journey - so they can fully enjoy themselves to the max without distractions until they land and decide to be a part of the world again.

[quras]

To be honest as i saw this thread it was the first time i realised that there are no flying mounts in Legion. I really don't miss them.

Funny, as a wow gamer, I noticed flying was everywhere except for me.

It was rather disappointing and I missed flying almost instantly.

[Mafic]

I believe it's being used as an example of how flight can be used to enhance the game-world instead of supposedly trivializing it.

There's a pretty common theme of claiming that flight ruins content, somehow. So it's natural to point to existing examples where that isn't true.

Yup.

Legion tried to copy WotLK zone design and fails at two major criteria

1. Ground travel (eg making some wide open spaces)
2. Designing with flight in mind

Even when flight is re-introduced in Legion expect players to realize the gating was pointless as it was in WoD.