This is Good To hear! Frost Dk Buffs!

[Schizoide]

Aside from KM on Obliterate (which can be unavoidable) those are all huge mistakes, easily avoidable. I disagree.

[pies1]

Game developers balance around top tier play. This is why it matters.

Blizz balances? All I've seen in legion is changing numbers at random to look busy. Just look at spriest thus far for proof.

[Saybel]

random ass shit

Nice, you actually bothered to the bottom 12 words of my post with far more effort than any other post you've constructed on this thread.

I'll give you the lowdown; you literally only care about Frost - I care about the entire class and all the players within it. Fact remains - 94% of us are playing Unholy, 94% put our AP into Unholy and 94% of us (more likely than not) set our loot spec to Unholy and get Unholy legendaries so 94% of us don't deserve to be fucked over and have to change spec to perform optimally and restart that process all over again.

Do you think that's because I don't like Frost? No, I fucking love Frost, it's fun as shit - but I am a Death Knight above any of my spec and I don't care for your petty squabbles about what spec you think deserves to be better, I care about the effort Mythic raiders have put into their characters and not seeing that effort wasted.

If I have go Frost because it's significantly better guess what - I just took 3 Relics, a trinket and several pieces of gear from my fellow raiders, I'll have to take 3 more relics too just to be up to speed. You think I do that for some justification from my raid leader or my raid members? No, I'm top 5 in damage in my guild usually, I do it because I want to assist my team in the best manner possible, by doing the most damage possible and bringing the most utility possible.

A pseudo-elitist (psuedo because your elitism has zero worth - you aren't achieving anything special for the simple act of playing frost) like you will never comprehend that because you have 0 appreciation of any form of structured gameplay, you selfishly do whatever you want and berate other people for making decisions that are better for themselves and everyone around them. When you have the ability to comprehend the situation that many raiders are in - go ahead and place your opinions, but until then all the drivel you spew from that side of the keyboard about me and other Death Knights in the same situation is uninformed, opinionated rubbish.

[nathrizarri]

Mythic raiders? You mean the population that is so result driven that they are shooting their own legs with playing the specs that they dont actually enjoy?

Let me tell you this. Noone can help them.

They are minority. Their demands which are toxic and very specific so they do not resonate well with the general population of WoW's interest.

--

As for myself, I love DK. Frost is my favourite spec, but that does not create a bias. I would love UH more if pet models were updated and there weren't so many active abilities. Same for Frost, I would love Frost more if there were more soul/lich king theme into it, but sadly they transferred the reaper fantasy to UH, which I feel is more of a plaguebringer/torturer/manipulator. As for gameplay, I prefer to have abilities with passive synergies that has cool setups. That is why I am playing Gathering Storm, it creates a setup every 20 seconds, keeps me interested and makes my so called 3 button rotation mean something. Unholy does not have enough setups to suit my taste(yees yess Dark Arbiter/Defile/Soul Reaper are all setups I know), and worst of all, it is a 1 rune spec and has a fail mechanic called Sudden Doom. That really fucks up the gameplay of UH for me. UH was more fun without artifact traits, with extra stuff that is coming from there, spec is so chaotic.

I am nowhere near an elitist. Numbers are the least of my concern. Only reason I use them is because people challenge frost with numbers. You sir, are dead wrong about multiple things:

Playing the lesser damage dealing spec isn't as important as you-mythic raiders- think. Xavius cannot be brought to %65 with hero? Good, ditch that tactic and save hero for later and have two adds. Simple as that. Instead, guys like you insist on 1 add tactic and kick/bench people with lower dps. Oh god I have wiped on Archi mythic soo much because in progression RL insisted on 1 Doomfire and calling it to wipe when we had 2, yet we weren't hitting that %100 time. This is %100 self inflicted situation and it will never be a part of Blizz's balancing concerns. This is exactly why "Mythic Raider" approach is toxic.

--

If you love Frost so much, play it. You are a good raider when you do mechanics properly and play your class to a good potential and that is it. Raid tiers should take time to complete, there is no reason to rush them, but you think you know everything, including me, so here are few logs for you to check out, since you like them so much. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...er/12941373/8/

Nice, you actually bothered to the bottom 12 words of my post with far more effort than any other post you've constructed on this thread.

I'll give you the lowdown; you literally only care about Frost - I care about the entire class and all the players within it. Fact remains - 94% of us are playing Unholy, 94% put our AP into Unholy and 94% of us (more likely than not) set our loot spec to Unholy and get Unholy legendaries so 94% of us don't deserve to be fucked over and have to change spec to perform optimally and restart that process all over again.

Do you think that's because I don't like Frost? No, I fucking love Frost, it's fun as shit - but I am a Death Knight above any of my spec and I don't care for your petty squabbles about what spec you think deserves to be better, I care about the effort Mythic raiders have put into their characters and not seeing that effort wasted.

If I have go Frost because it's significantly better guess what - I just took 3 Relics, a trinket and several pieces of gear from my fellow raiders, I'll have to take 3 more relics too just to be up to speed. You think I do that for some justification from my raid leader or my raid members? No, I'm top 5 in damage in my guild usually, I do it because I want to assist my team in the best manner possible, by doing the most damage possible and bringing the most utility possible.

A pseudo-elitist (psuedo because your elitism has zero worth - you aren't achieving anything special for the simple act of playing frost) like you will never comprehend that because you have 0 appreciation of any form of structured gameplay, you selfishly do whatever you want and berate other people for making decisions that are better for themselves and everyone around them. When you have the ability to comprehend the situation that many raiders are in - go ahead and place your opinions, but until then all the drivel you spew from that side of the keyboard about me and other Death Knights in the same situation is uninformed, opinionated rubbish.

[Saybel]

Simple as that. Instead, guys like you insist on 1 add tactic and kick/bench people with lower dps.

Your assessment of how I view this game and this matter have been wrong from the beginning; your lack of understanding of my motivation and playstyle is grating at best. You've tried to assess my personality and failed miserably at every turn - you cannot analyze me as a person from 3 or 4 posts on MMO-Champion and you certainly can't guess how I approach tactics or the game in general.

I will tell you once more, I play Death Knight, not a specific spec - I do not want Unholy to be above Frost because I think Frost is an inherently inferior spec, I want it to be that way (and only by the smallest of %s) because 94% of players in raiding are playing it.

I want our specs to be competitive with each other - and in the game in general. The numbers you quoted from me and called me selfish for were 2-5%. Guess what, 5% is less than the RNG I see in my DPS from pull to pull. Frost will be highly competitive with that small of a gap - minmaxers will always switch over to the best spec though, and they shouldn't have to switch until Nighthold to be completely honest and especially not in the middle of EN progress.

But, no. Apparently according to you I am an insane, selfish person who needs to see a mental health professional in real life. I am also a person who only cares about DPS and disregards tactics - would you like to tell me about my childhood now? Please diagnose me doctor, since you know me better than myself.

No, actually - forget that, I am done talking with you because all you did is attack me as a person directly in a discussion about numbers and turn half this thread into a shit slinging contest instead of having a real discussion about the # differences between the specs, which is what the discussion was about beforehand.

[Baddok21]

75th percentile DKs, using frost as an example will do the following:

-Miss several GA uses over a 3-4 minute fight
-Miss 2-3 Pillar of Frost uses over a 4-5 minute fight (assuming Icecap)
-Munch a good portion of their KMs to Oblit.
-Mediocre uptime on FP/IT

That's not something you can balance around.

I have always been of the mindset that 85-90 percentile is the true mark.

85-90 Percentile meaning playing your spec well but being chosen for DPS crushing mechanics, and possibly not the best itemized gear

90-95 Percentile meaning playing your spec excellently with optomized gear

95-99 Percentile meaning playing your spec excellently with optomized gear and not dealing with a single mechanic

100 Percentile all the above + Legendaries to boot, and your best possible RNG.

[LETSGETPARTY]

Way to derail a thread

[Coldvibes]

I have always been of the mindset that 85-90 percentile is the true mark.

85-90 Percentile meaning playing your spec well but being chosen for DPS crushing mechanics, and possibly not the best itemized gear

90-95 Percentile meaning playing your spec excellently with optomized gear

95-99 Percentile meaning playing your spec excellently with optomized gear and not dealing with a single mechanic

100 Percentile all the above + Legendaries to boot, and your best possible RNG.

As of now, yeah it kinda does make sense, parsing beyond 95+ right now means, that you had no inopportune RC procs or have a DPS enhancing legendary. Oh and also not get bullshit like 2-2-2 wounds on pull.

85-95 would be the ballpark to balance between right now.

[Schizoide]

That depends on whether you feel they should focus on what the spec can theoretically do or what most people playing the spec actually do.

Balancing for the great unwashed masses obviously impacts a ton more people. It should be weighted accordingly.

[hellhamster]

Parsing high is pure luck guys, why are we even arguing about this? Getting better rng with rune and runic power recharge , trinket and unholy strength uptime, close to 100% crits during all cds etc win you the absolute top. That is assuming you don't fail the rotation, which is insanely easy to begin with.

[chibichibiko]

minmaxers will always switch over to the best spec though, and they shouldn't have to switch until Nighthold to be completely honest and especially not in the middle of EN progress.

So don't switch then. You're not going to take a damage hit by switching--if you would you'd just keep playing unholy until you got the gear/relics/legendaries such that it wasn't a damage hit. No one's forcing you to switch either. You'll do it if you think you'll get more damage, but that's because you've already expressed that you feel like you have no choice--if a thing is optimal, you will do it (paraphrasing, but that seemed your intent). Also, the fact that you define 'players in raiding' as 'players progressing in mythic' and exclude all other players of all other difficulties, You only sample the statistic that agrees with your perspective, privilege the perspective of people in your situation, and feel like you deserve to not have to ever 'regear' in the middle of your progression--it's just my opinion, but that does sound selfish/elitist.

[Saybel]

if you would you'd just keep playing unholy until you got the gear/relics/legendaries such that it wasn't a damage hit.

That's what I am doing - I'll have to steal 2 frost and 1 shadow relic from our raiders though.

[Baddok21]

people are blowing this severly ou of proportion

if you have 1-3 legendaries now on Unholy

swappping over to a non-legendary Frost is a waste of your time and to be perfectly frank once you have bracers and POSSIBLY the belt there is no point to keep your loot spec as Unholy anyways.

It seems like people are getting a legendary every 5-6 weeks so at this rate by NH release there wont be a "I dont got legendaries, for this spec" excuse anyhow.

That's what I am doing - I'll have to steal 2 frost and 1 shadow relic from our raiders though.

why do you say "stealing" if its a performance upgrade for the raid, then its a performance upgrade for the raid, the "woe is me" connotation to that falls on deaf ears because in the broadview everything a DK takes from a Arms, Ret, Hunter , Fire/Arcane Mage, Spriest, WW Monk is "stealing" with that mindset.