[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Snowfunk]

This thing is doing my head in.

I tried both the BoW with 22% haste and the BoV with 30% haste... and i seem to do better with 30% haste. Its mind bending.
It's getting me pretty frustraded aswell because the way in wich to improve your character is so blurred. The scaling also seems pretty awful no matter what you choose.

I'm a LFR-hero type casual, but I still try to get a good balance or priority of stats, which since launch has been Haste/Crit. I've recently seen well-known Rets going high Crit/Mastery, and letting Haste tumble down to the 18-20% range.

I've messed around with the gear I have a little bit to adjust my stats accordingly, but I've found that Haste that low makes the spec feel awful to me. Maybe the reason for this stat priority is to set up the big, hard hit, or an attempt to avoid the wasted GCDs when Crusade and Lust are going at the same time?

After testing things out, anything less than 26-27% Haste just makes combat unpleasant for me.

Yeah, I've definitely been having a similar experience.
I tried dropping some haste, but that makes playing feel really sluggish.

And dps definitely dropped a bit. By quite a lot in Mythics.
High Haste really gains value when you have less Crusade up time. Depending on the dungeon and for the most part in general, I am not using Crusade blindly every 2 minutes.

[Deleted]

either Thete is a bit salty about this change or he is just mildly trolling us.

but yeah we do have to do some figuring out here. which means: @Solsacra we call upon your wisdom again to enlighten us

It will be a sim yourself job. BoW favours haste (unless it's a normalised ppm) and Virtue's Blade still favours crit.

Only interesting point might be that the old swing timer may need dusting off for BoW in 7.1.

[Rassell]

Hi all,

So we cap at 22%? and then go Crit Vers?

[Fallom]

I have a theory that I am currently working on. I do not believe mastery is as bad as SIMS are stating. However, that requires your crit and haste to be up to around 28%-30% each.

If we look at boss logs TV is normally 40%+ of a Ret's Damage - SO, common sense would state that doing TV for more damage more often would be the highest DPS increase to Ret. The problem has been that our master affects only Judgment damage and TV/DS so a lot of people assume Versatility is better for an overall damage increase. It might be, but a character starts at 0% Versa and it takes 400 points to make 1% - Where as with Mastery you start with 12% naked and it only takes 350 to make 1%. Over time, with less stat points in mastery, It takes less mastery to increase TV/DS damage, as well as making judgment hit for almost a TV making it a good button to press for consistant damage.

At 30% crit you can take TFoJ and Virtue's Blade. From relic you get 18% chance extra to crit crusader strike so you are looking at approx 48% chance to crit crusader, with the lower cooldown on TFoJ you hit crusader a lot, so lots of crits already. Virtue's Blade hits like a truck when it crits. At 30% crit/haste you are putting out a lot of VB. Finally, 30% crit ups TV/DS damage when they crit. Crit is to increase builders and spenders dps, but especially useful for HP builders. I would say 30% is the amount to shoot for for synergy and that crit food would be good to make up the difference. More is good, however, there are only so many gear slots. Nothing wrong with a better chance to do more damage, but it isn't 100% consistant.

- - - Updated - - -

Haste is the glue that synergises Crit and mastery. At 30% you get more reliable TV/DS in the judgment window and it smooths out the longer cooldowns of VB and Judgment for a much more fluid rotation. If I had to guess, I would say 35% Haste is a hard cap and anymore isn't useful especially during crusade/lust where it is just too fast and easy to miss TV/DS because of GCD. I would prioitize to get to 30% and then as Ilvl increase cap it at 35% and be done with it.

Finally Mastery. Mastery is a quicker way to up TV/DS/judgment damage then Versa because of the cost per 1% and the amount you start with (around14% with talents and 860 Weapon.) I would guess that when stacking mastery the sky is the limit once you have reached 30% crit/haste. Mastery greatly ups you AOE damage as well, where I feel Ret is "lacking". With more mastery I can catch up with classes like DH and Fire mages when their major abilities are on cool down staying below them by a few % and surpass them when using crusade and HP building/DS spam. Then surpass them further by several % on ST boss fights with crusade. I feel useful all the time Instead of only on boss fights with Crusade as a crutch.

My choice to use TfoJ/VB vs Greater Judgment/Zeal or BoW and Hammer is for quicker HP build and the possibility to only need 2 HP to TV/DS, aswell as more ST damage when VB crits. It is a good trade off with ST and AOE and makes you well rounded vs choosing Zeal/GJ/Hammer/BoW. The Majority of your AOE damage is from DS and using WoA at the right time to get more DS out in trash packs.

- - - Updated - - -

For mythics, I like JV as a talent because with 30% haste/crit and high mastery it synergises with Fist of Justice so well to get out 1.5m crits on stunnable priority mobs and to save your butt with heals. In raids not so useful. My stun is hardly on cool down because of how fast I can get finishers off.

While I think DP as a talent can be good, I still think with this build Crusade is more damage overall. Obviously with high haste and lots of TV/DS uses DP has a better chance to proc, however you can never rely on it because it is RNG. Crusade is a Consistant you can build your gear and choices around it.

All in all, a lot of this is guessing so take it with a grain of salt. However, I have noticed a substantial DPS increase with more mastery especially in the AOE department while still being able to dish out exception ST on bosses. I feel the 22% haste then crit/verse build is sticking RET in the corner as the ST only class, thus the perception in mythic is a quick decline on invites. Being well rounded and useful in groups more often then every 2 minutes is much more rewarding.

Ret should not be declined for a mythic- with 3 shields and JV to heal, a stun (2 if WoA can stun demon/undead) an interupt, okay movement abilities and good DPS it should be a great class to choose vs the flavor of the month. Compared to my Warrior, Ret has a much better toolkit to survive and continue dpsing and I personaly feel it is more equipped to handle harder content. Dead DPS don't do damage. Warriors might do a bit more ST Arms or AOE Fury, but they are mostly reliant on healers to survive. Ret has great tools and great damage to compete and contribute. My thoughts are it involves a good synergy of our stats and building them to work together.

-edit- I also want to clarify that Versatility is not a bad stat and if you get a piece that fits don't shun it. It ups all damage for everything. It's kind of boring as a stat though and a lot of it's value is taken up by damage reduction and healing. That could be useful for survival in mythics, but the amount you would need to really see a difference is a lot of stat points that could be put somewhere else to do more damage (JV healing to survive)

[idpsutank]

Some of my guild members have been saying that they are fixing or revamping some of the EN trinkets? Does anyone have confirmation or anything about this?

[oraz4000]

Has the Sword of light that went missing on the PTR been addressed im not able to see for myself on PTR

[Snegovik]

Has the Sword of light that went missing on the PTR been addressed im not able to see for myself on PTR

we do not have official confirmation yet if its a pug on PTR, Blizzard simply removing the icon from our spell book or its a nerf.

[oraz4000]

Well thats concerning.. a flat 5% nerf is completely unwarranted for a middle of the pack spec.

[Gloriandus]

Yeah, I've definitely been having a similar experience.
I tried dropping some haste, but that makes playing feel really sluggish.

And dps definitely dropped a bit. By quite a lot in Mythics.
High Haste really gains value when you have less Crusade up time. Depending on the dungeon and for the most part in general, I am not using Crusade blindly every 2 minutes.

After playing around with it a bit, it appears that going with high Crit/Mastery is great when there's a lot of trash and/or when the trash is closely packed together (Black Rook Hold, Maw of Souls).

My damage was much higher than normal in the more densely-packed dungeons using high Crit/Mastery. On boss fights with no adds, though, it's not that great. I went between GJ/BoW and GJ/DH, and found they were fairly close, with BoW edging out DH. Plus, the shorter cooldown make BoW the more pleasant builder to use (to me).

Elsewhere, however, it was no better than with the Haste/Crit priority, and in some cases lower, like in Eye of Azshara. For me, high Haste/Crit and using Zeal/DH gives me the most consistent damage in most situations.

[MarshallX]

Some of my guild members have been saying that they are fixing or revamping some of the EN trinkets? Does anyone have confirmation or anything about this?

I've heard this too but haven't seen any solid evidence. Considering the state of trinkets, I would not be surprised. 876 ilvl and using two 840 trinkets, thanks Withered Jim for nothing...

[Snowfunk]

Some of my guild members have been saying that they are fixing or revamping some of the EN trinkets? Does anyone have confirmation or anything about this?

I've heard this too but haven't seen any solid evidence. Considering the state of trinkets, I would not be surprised. 876 ilvl and using two 840 trinkets, thanks Withered Jim for nothing...

Yes, this seems to be a widespread "rumor" in my guild as well. It was brought up whenever a trinket dropped during last nights raid.
While there seem to be no official mention about it, it certainly seems plausible. Consider just how damn bad/weak many of them are.

[Deleted]

Yes, this seems to be a widespread "rumor" in my guild as well. It was brought up whenever a trinket dropped during last nights raid.
While there seem to be no official mention about it, it certainly seems plausible. Consider just how damn bad/weak many of them are.

There is official confirmation. I'm pretty sure Ion mentioned it on the Q&A. With that said... we are still waiting.

[MarshallX]

"Ursoc's Rending Paw and several other Emerald Nightmare raid trinkets are severely undertuned. Is this being looked into?
Yes. There are many trinkets with varied and flavorful effects (as opposed to passive stats/procs). It's trickier to make these types of trinkets with interesting proc effects."

[Deleted]

I've heard this too but haven't seen any solid evidence. Considering the state of trinkets, I would not be surprised. 876 ilvl and using two 840 trinkets, thanks Withered Jim for nothing...

They said they'd look at them. That's a whole world away from some issues they they actually think need looking at. Of course, it doesn't mean they will be low priority, just that they might not really know what to do about it and may see if the issue goes away with patch 7.1 trinkets.

[Deleted]

Ursoc's trinket is really underwhelming when the proc damage is only 2-3% of total damage after an encounter and one can find equal strength contribution trinkets from mythic+. Atm am not sad about it and at least i dont have to compete with all strength users about it. Cannot say i am sad that i can perform as intended without missing a supersick trinket that am waiting an eternity to drop and when it drops i have to wait for my turn to get .
PLX make legendary cloak drop for me and i will be happy

[Deleted]

Do you guys prefer divine purpose or crusade on mythic+ dungeons ? With more haste I think divine purpose could be potentially effective. I also run zeal+bow(most comfortable combination for me)

[PizzaSHARK]

Just want you to know that has been debunked by Solsacra before. The wasted holy power is not worth the faster stack building and damage loss from using JV... unless maybe on pvp if the target is stunned.

So you'd basically pop Crusade at 3 HP, TV, and then proceed to generate and spend HP as quickly as possible to hit 15 stacks?

[OrcsRLame]

So you'd basically pop Crusade at 3 HP, TV, and then proceed to generate and spend HP as quickly as possible to hit 15 stacks?

Basically, but get to 5 HP first, not 3. No reason to waste some of Crusade's duration.

[Floross]

Basically, but get to 5 HP first, not 3. No reason to waste some of Crusade's duration.

What about on pull with pre-pot ? Straight up Ashes ?

[OrcsRLame]

What about on pull with pre-pot ? Straight up Ashes ?

No. Pretend the prepot doesn't exist and take it slow. It's not worth it to gimp Crusade's dps to try and get more out of your prepot.

That actually brings me to a question I've been mulling over. In 7.1, Prolonged Power or Old War for our prepot? Currently, our second pot is much stronger than our prepot because we can line it up with the final 25 seconds of Crusade. With the prepot though, you only get like 7-10 seconds of max dps out of it, so I'm wondering if the 1 minute duration of Prolonged Power might win out as a prepot due to lining up with Crusade better.