No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Dhrizzle]

Yup.

Legion tried to copy WotLK zone design and fails at two major criteria

1. Ground travel (eg making some wide open spaces)
2. Designing with flight in mind

Even when flight is re-introduced in Legion expect players to realize the gating was pointless as it was in WoD.

That makes so little sense, how did Legion copy WotLK if it didn't include the big empty spaces and areas without pathways?

[Thimagryn]

I voted for 7.2. I feel that is a reasonable amount of time to experience the content.

Which answers the question when you think it'll be in the game. That's not indication of what you actually want, which you have said before here is at level 1.

I think 7.2 is reasonable too, but I'm not playing the game until Legion is on sale or bundled into the main game so it doesn't matter to me at all.

[Mafic]

It doesn't seem like Legion FPs are improved, in fact, I'm quite annoyed that direct routes to major zone hubs don't appear to exist like they did in WoD. I mean, if I want to fly from Dalaran to Aszuna I have to pass through about half a dozen different FPs that are only kinda/sorta along the way, definitely not a straight path.

Traversing Legion is also the opposite of WoD. Used to be I'd point myself in the right direction (from any starting point), use Aviana's Feather to launch high up into the sky, and go. Now I have to find the highest ground possible to start, often riding up mountain sides first, and then use toys to maximize the falling/gliding distance. It's like this weird mini-game to travel. Also, while I like the utility of the whistle, the execution of it is so odd. You basically get a 'pass out drunk' effect (blurriness & fade-to-black), which I find jarring. I guess I'm just not accustomed to it yet, but the first time I used it I was like WTF?



This.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've found all of the Legion zones incredibly confusing (aside from terrain issues). I spend more time with my map open than actually looking at the game. It's never been like that in any previous expansion. It's another reason I'd like to have an aerial view of the zones so I can finally get a whole picture in my mind of where everything is.

If I had to guess they knew they dropped the ball with Legion flight paths and why the flight whistle came late into the testing cycle for Legion. I mean given how tiny the Broken Isles are one would think flight paths would be straight forward and easy. But in actuality that isn't the case which not surprising given they didn't invest much time addressing Legion alpha player concerns about flight paths.

[GoKs]

I honestly cant see why this is still discussed.... If you dont like flying... dont fly!! Use your ground mount and enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed. It is fucking annoying to be dazed and dismounted by every second mob on my way to do a WQ... why must I be punished. If you think Blizzard shouldnt have implemented flight from the start, then i think they must just remove all mounts and make you walk to where you want to be.... I cant see how flying is so negative, " But WPvP..." I play on a pvp server and literally only had one instance of wpvp up to date. Just give us flying, I explored the world of legion already, got the exploration achiv, the treasure achivs and rare achivs so what more do you want me to explore?

[SirCowdog]

Flight does not ruin it, it trivializes it. There is a difference. Flight makes travel more fun, but instead of facing the Scourge head on at ground level, it was far easier to whip over them, land, do what was necessary, and fly away. Hardly makes for an epic adventure. Then again, we are talking about Legion, not Wrath. If certain posters want to stay on topic, they should reference the current expansion and the effects of flight. Can't accuse me of derailing the topic and then turn right around and talk about forced PVP.
.

Actually, we can reference things like WotLK. Legion doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not a completely new or stand-alone game.

We talk about flying within the larger context of WoW, and ignoring how flight has been handled in the past by both players and Blizzard just isn't going to happen.

[CheeseSandwich]

I honestly cant see why this is still discussed.... If you dont like flying... dont fly!! Use your ground mount and enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed. It is fucking annoying to be dazed and dismounted by every second mob on my way to do a WQ... why must I be punished. If you think Blizzard shouldnt have implemented flight from the start, then i think they must just remove all mounts and make you walk to where you want to be.... I cant see how flying is so negative, " But WPvP..." I play on a pvp server and literally only had one instance of wpvp up to date. Just give us flying, I explored the world of legion already, got the exploration achiv, the treasure achivs and rare achivs so what more do you want me to explore?

The answers you will get will range from (a)"because it empties the world" to (b)"oh sure, you just want to skip everything with god mode" to (c)"that guy will get something fractionally faster than me, possibly".

To which, as has been noted plenty of times,

(a)flight paths, hearthstones and the whistle are way more effective at removing players from the world outside of areas of interest. The current CRZ infested congested WQ areas of interest seem populated as hell, but it has nothing to do with no flying. It is because there is relevant content to do and players are doing it, while also being pasted into other players realms. If flying were turned on today, you would still see the same amount of people out in the world completing quests and moving about. The Legion preevent prooves this, with flying being enabled and loads of people everywhere doing everything.

(b) No one ever skipped anything relevant to them because of free flight. Players still have to land to complete content they want to do, and forcing them to wade thorough things they dont want to do or have done countless times before for no reward for an innumerate amount of times does not make compelling game play. Flying does not allow the bypassing of relevant content,

(c) If your enjoyment in the game is derived from keeping up with Randomdude the Patient and some self induced sense of falling behind, and not actually from doing what you get fun from doing (ie riding on the ground), then the joy you get from riding on the ground mustn't be that fulfilling. If flying is obviously the superior option, so much so that you would forgo what you claim you enjoy just for fear of missing out, why protest so much about its inclusion? Surely you can make a grown up choice not to use it if it were available, maintaining your integrity ground king/queen, playing the game that you prefer to see.

"But then everyone is up in the air, I see no one on the ground!" So your saying flying is the preferred method of transport of everyone then, interesting.
"Pfft, no, they are only using it because it is easier, path of least resistance and all that." Ok cool, so how does that deprive you of playing the game the way you prefer?
"Because I don't see people on the ground when I travel from flight point to WQ!" Because they prefer to fly.
"AHHA! You see! The world is empty!!" Nah, about the same as it is with flight masters whistle and flight paths. But hey, at least if I am travelling on a free flight mount and spot something I want to do I can stop right? Not like the cut scene flight paths and whistles that just cut the world out completely.

Flight makes travel more fun...

More fun?? well we can't have that!! Cut that fun out right now!!!

[SirCowdog]

The only way id support flying earlier in expansions, is if they heavily nerfed flight speed or had a sliding scale approach. heres an example:

On initial release and for the first big chunk of an expansion, using a flight path+ground mount should always be the fastest and most convenient path to your location or WQ objective. One current problem with flight is, once unlocked, its so damn fast compared to ground mounts straight off the bat and renders them so inefficient by comparison that nobody even considers them.

- Therefore if flying is allowed earlier, Pathfinder Part 1 would unlock flight with something like flight at 40% ground mount speed. That way you can still technically fly, but you heavily sacrifice efficiency for the sake of convenience. Pro-flyers can still get a lovely mountain screenshot POV that they love, but virtually everyone who wants efficiency will still use ground/FP system

- Patherfinder Part 2 in 7.1 gives you the ability to unlock flight at +80% ground speed max. Most people still use ground mounts because they're still faster and more efficient, but it slides up the 'what i prefer' scale just a little more. And repeat the process until:

- Pathfinder Part X in 7.Y (whatever last preexpansion patch is) lets you unlock flight at +260% ground speed or whatever it is. That way you can get efficiency and convenience, but its right at the end of the expansion and just before a fresh expansion (when people are back on the ground again). This is the point where everyone dissappears into the air and flies - but at this point nobody cares because the expansion is old news, everyones bored etc.

This way , while you could still fly earlier, barely anyone actually will do it because FP/ground is designed to be by far the fastest method. But the pro-flying extremists can still doso if they wish - and dont care about the large efficiency sacrifice in the process.

What you're describing here is an attempt to address the disparity between the power and utility of flying/ground mounts. This is a concept I've talked about before in the past.

Simply nerfing flying speed would work, but it's probably one of the worst solutions, only outclassed by removing flight entirely(thus removing all choice/options in the process). Things like placing limited charges on how often you can summon your flying mount, or giving flying mounts a fatigue bar, or making it so flying mounts can only be summoned from flight masters are all similar solutions. Increasing ground mount utility, with things like waterwalking, blinks, or leaps is an alternative approach.

But when we talk about things like anti-air cannons and NPCs who can grapple flying mounts of the air, that's also a way of indirectly addressing the disparity. We leave the core mechanics of flying and ground mounts alone, but make ground movement easier, or air movement more difficult/inconvenient.

I honestly believe that somewhere in all that is a good solution for the issue of flying. Problem is, too many people are, like Blizzard, completely unwilling to even consider alternatives.

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(c) If your enjoyment in the game is derived from keeping up with Randomdude the Patient and some self induced sense of falling behind, and not actually from doing what you get fun from doing (ie riding on the ground), then the joy you get from riding on the ground mustn't be that fulfilling. If flying is obviously the superior option, so much so that you would forgo what you claim you enjoy just for fear of missing out, why protest so much about its inclusion? Surely you can make a grown up choice not to use it if it were available, maintaining your integrity ground king/queen, playing the game that you prefer to see.

I liken this to the choice to play Diablo 3 on hardcore mode. It's a much slower pace, and the style of play is much different with the Sword of Damocles hanging over your head. You don't take the same risks, you gear differently, you approach champion packs differently, you spec differently. But no one forces everyone to play hardcore before you can even access normal mode.

Choosing to only use your ground mount is much the same. The playstyle is slower. You have to worry about cliffs and rivers and mountains. You have to approach quest encounters differently. You don't have to worry as much about using slowfall, or gliding.

Now I realize that the ground gameplay I just described is EXACTLY what Blizzard wants people to do. The difference is that in D3 you have the choice to play how you want. In WoW you do not. Why? Both are progression-based games. Both are technically MMORPGs. Both have talents, classes, gear, quests, loot, and bosses. The lines between the two games are even more blurred in Legion than ever before.

Why is one different? One is a subscription-based pay model, the other is not. And if you don't think the money has any influence on this situation, then you are very VERY naive.

[Thimagryn]

I actually wouldn't mind the idea of flight being slower than ground travel. It would give a better choice option for players; either get to where you want quicker on the ground, or have the freedom to fly. Unlock the 300% speed at the time when flight would be unlocked normally.

Of course this wouldn't satisfy everyone and complaints would still come in, but at least there is some semblance of choice rather than being completely restricted. Having access to our flying mounts but only being able to use them on the ground for half an expansion is what I'd call 'immersion breaking'.

[Dormie]

I honestly cant see why this is still discussed.... If you dont like flying... dont fly!! Use your ground mount and enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed.

Doesn't work like that.

[GoKs]

Doesn't work like that.

And why not? there is absolutely NO reason for it not to work like that.

[-Joker-]

Which answers the question when you think it'll be in the game. That's not indication of what you actually want, which you have said before here is at level 1.

I think 7.2 is reasonable too, but I'm not playing the game until Legion is on sale or bundled into the main game so it doesn't matter to me at all.

What I want is irrelevant. I want to race change my Druid to a Gnome and then faction change him to Horde. I want flight at level 1. I want red skinned Draenei and a complete Race/Class/Faction unlock. I want to use my hearthstone to access ANY Inn in the game which I have previously visited (like a Flight Master). I would like Battle Mage to be a Class and have them wear Int Plate like a Paladin. I would like to pay to purchase sub-tier gear since I am not a raider. I would like all heirlooms to automatically level to the next level cap with each new expac without costing a dime. What I want is probably not good for the game, which is why the Dev's are not beating down my door for suggestions.

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I honestly cant see why this is still discussed.... If you dont like flying... dont fly!! Use your ground mount and enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed. It is fucking annoying to be dazed and dismounted by every second mob on my way to do a WQ... why must I be punished. If you think Blizzard shouldnt have implemented flight from the start, then i think they must just remove all mounts and make you walk to where you want to be.... I cant see how flying is so negative, " But WPvP..." I play on a pvp server and literally only had one instance of wpvp up to date. Just give us flying, I explored the world of legion already, got the exploration achiv, the treasure achivs and rare achivs so what more do you want me to explore?

Not sure it's a matter of not liking flight, but rather understanding the honest fundamental that flight has the ability to undermine the content and the world in which it is rooted. Tanaan Jungle did an ok job of tucking things indoors, or in caves, thus cutting out flight even after it was available.

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Actually, we can reference things like WotLK. Legion doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not a completely new or stand-alone game.

We talk about flying within the larger context of WoW, and ignoring how flight has been handled in the past by both players and Blizzard just isn't going to happen.

I'm just trying to post by Mafic's rules since he is under the impression every post I make is somehow derailing the topic. So since the topic is Legion, I think it is prudent to stick to Legion and discuss flight and how it will affect the new content.

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More fun?? well we can't have that!! Cut that fun out right now!!!

They're not cutting it out... just delaying it

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I actually wouldn't mind the idea of flight being slower than ground travel. It would give a better choice option for players; either get to where you want quicker on the ground, or have the freedom to fly. Unlock the 300% speed at the time when flight would be unlocked normally.

Of course this wouldn't satisfy everyone and complaints would still come in, but at least there is some semblance of choice rather than being completely restricted. Having access to our flying mounts but only being able to use them on the ground for half an expansion is what I'd call 'immersion breaking'.

They've tried that as a bargaining option. In fact, in the Draenor thread, multiple options were suggested (and shot down by Bashiok). Some of the suggestions included:

- Flight at lvl 100
- Epic questline to unlock it
- Skybox lowered to the tree/mountain line
- Aerial NPCs with aggro/attack
- Ground NPCs with ranged weapons/cannons/spears/etc
- Battle towers at the entrance to each zone, and randomly scattered on mountain tops
- Flight speed reduced to 150% from 310%
- Debuff after winning in PvP combat (open world), flight speed slowed to 150% for 5 minutes (Coward's Escape)
- Buff after losing in PvP combat (open world), flight speed increased to 250% for 5 minutes (Pursuit of Revenge)

But Blizz rapidly nipped it in the bud:

We've tried that quite a few times, it's really just a symptom of how the game mechanics function that most of our forays into dangerous flight just feel really bad. On one hand they feel unnecessarily harsh because there's only a few things you can really do to someone while they're flying and they generally deal with stuns/slows/dismounts, and on the other hand there's just no fun gameplay that can really be had there. The best gameplay is at ground level because that's the basis for the design of our game's combat systems. We'd toyed with mounted/flying combat in the past but that could almost be a totally separate game on its own, and probably gets us too far away from what WoW is.

- SOURCE

[Thimagryn]

I don't care about the rest of those options, they're assuming flight mechanics need to be changed. The change in speed is what I mentioned, and that doesn't mean nerfing flight to do so. It could mean unlocking a way to speed up ground travel through pathfinder too, since the goal is to make ground travel more appealing than flight for the general gamer. If there is incentive to use ground travel, then there's really no worry about letting other people have flight. The immersion is still there for people who want it, as well as doubly benefiting power gamers like me. I think that's a way better option than simply clipping everyone's wings.

Again, it's not about using flight to do X or Y better. It's about having the option to fly. No other system is gated in the same manner flight is.

[GoKs]

What I want is irrelevant. I want to race change my Druid to a Gnome and then faction change him to Horde. I want flight at level 1. I want red skinned Draenei and a complete Race/Class/Faction unlock. I want to use my hearthstone to access ANY Inn in the game which I have previously visited (like a Flight Master). I would like Battle Mage to be a Class and have them wear Int Plate like a Paladin. I would like to pay to purchase sub-tier gear since I am not a raider. I would like all heirlooms to automatically level to the next level cap with each new expac without costing a dime. What I want is probably not good for the game, which is why the Dev's are not beating down my door for suggestions.

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Not sure it's a matter of not liking flight, but rather understanding the honest fundamental that flight has the ability to undermine the content and the world in which it is rooted. Tanaan Jungle did an ok job of tucking things indoors, or in caves, thus cutting out flight even after it was available.

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I'm just trying to post by Mafic's rules since he is under the impression every post I make is somehow derailing the topic. So since the topic is Legion, I think it is prudent to stick to Legion and discuss flight and how it will affect the new content.

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They're not cutting it out... just delaying it

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They've tried that as a bargaining option. In fact, in the Draenor thread, multiple options were suggested (and shot down by Bashiok). Some of the suggestions included:

- Flight at lvl 100
- Epic questline to unlock it
- Skybox lowered to the tree/mountain line
- Aerial NPCs with aggro/attack
- Ground NPCs with ranged weapons/cannons/spears/etc
- Battle towers at the entrance to each zone, and randomly scattered on mountain tops
- Flight speed reduced to 150% from 310%
- Debuff after winning in PvP combat (open world), flight speed slowed to 150% for 5 minutes (Coward's Escape)
- Buff after losing in PvP combat (open world), flight speed increased to 250% for 5 minutes (Pursuit of Revenge)

But Blizz rapidly nipped it in the bud:

We've tried that quite a few times, it's really just a symptom of how the game mechanics function that most of our forays into dangerous flight just feel really bad. On one hand they feel unnecessarily harsh because there's only a few things you can really do to someone while they're flying and they generally deal with stuns/slows/dismounts, and on the other hand there's just no fun gameplay that can really be had there. The best gameplay is at ground level because that's the basis for the design of our game's combat systems. We'd toyed with mounted/flying combat in the past but that could almost be a totally separate game on its own, and probably gets us too far away from what WoW is.

- SOURCE

Again, if that is their logic, they must remove mounts totally from the game, ground and air because "it has the ability to undermine the content and the world in which it is rooted". Remove flight paths, Zeplins and all other flight, remove the ability to summon some one and also the group finder(LFD/LFR) ability to teleport you straight to the place of interest from the game. Also remove the ability to get out of combat with the mobs you aggro-ed unless they are all dead, that mobs were placed there to be killed so kill them, dont run away or feign death etc. If you want to get somewhere, walk there, then you cant skip content they created!! Even on a ground mount you skip 95% of the mobs on your way to do something, so what is the difference? The only difference is the time spent, instead of taking 5 minutes to get to a place it now takes you 30 minutes, does that immerse me in the world....NO it doesnt it just annoys the fuck out of me.

[Mafic]

I honestly cant see why this is still discussed.... If you dont like flying... dont fly!! Use your ground mount and enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed. It is fucking annoying to be dazed and dismounted by every second mob on my way to do a WQ... why must I be punished. If you think Blizzard shouldnt have implemented flight from the start, then i think they must just remove all mounts and make you walk to where you want to be.... I cant see how flying is so negative, " But WPvP..." I play on a pvp server and literally only had one instance of wpvp up to date. Just give us flying, I explored the world of legion already, got the exploration achiv, the treasure achivs and rare achivs so what more do you want me to explore?

World PVP argument never works because one month post launch everyone is in instances grinding for artifact power, relics and gear rolls in mythics. Honestly, Blizzard's WoW is a lobby game so their effort to drag down the world portion of their game seems petty to me. This is because they don't really support it (eg archaeology) so without flying archaeology without any tweaks becomes very painful activity to partake in especially with the additional RNG added to it in Legion. Flying is what binds the non raider player's game world in completing tasks or just having fun. Without it the game truly becomes an instanced lobby waiting game or raid or die if you want to take the extreme point of view of it.

Legion will be great once flying is added IMVHO.

[-Joker-]

Even on a ground mount you skip 95% of the mobs on your way to do something, so what is the difference? The only difference is the time spent, instead of taking 5 minutes to get to a place it now takes you 30 minutes, does that immerse me in the world....NO it doesnt it just annoys the fuck out of me.

You can also skip most of them stealthed as a Hunter (with Camo), a Rogue, or a Feral Druid (stealth). You can also skip it with a glider, a whistle, a feather, or a rocketpack. You can also skip it with a portal or a hearthstone. Sometimes it's necessary to view it from all angles before making the broad statements.

[GoKs]

You can also skip most of them stealthed as a Hunter (with Camo), a Rogue, or a Feral Druid (stealth). You can also skip it with a glider, a whistle, a feather, or a rocketpack. You can also skip it with a portal or a hearthstone. Sometimes it's necessary to view it from all angles before making the broad statements.

My point is, they dont want you to skip it, so why have stuff in game to skip it... remove all ability to skip it then, not only one.......

[-Joker-]

My point is, they dont want you to skip it, so why have stuff in game to skip it... remove all ability to skip it then, not only one.......

I recognize hyperbole when I see it. They don't want you to fly over it. They never specifically said they don't want you riding through it. In fact, on Draenor, in Nagrand, you could ride a Talbuk and fight from it's back. You could also mine, gather, skin, etc, all without leaving their mount.

[Deleted]

I actually wouldn't mind the idea of flight being slower than ground travel. It would give a better choice option for players; either get to where you want quicker on the ground, or have the freedom to fly. Unlock the 300% speed at the time when flight would be unlocked normally.

Of course this wouldn't satisfy everyone and complaints would still come in, but at least there is some semblance of choice rather than being completely restricted. Having access to our flying mounts but only being able to use them on the ground for half an expansion is what I'd call 'immersion breaking'.

No, just no. wtf.

So either no flying mounts or crippled mounts.

[Dhrizzle]

My point is, they dont want you to skip it, so why have stuff in game to skip it... remove all ability to skip it then, not only one.......

Flying over the terrain and hazards is different to riding around them, hence there are people in this thread complaining that they need flight because they struggle dealing with the mobs and environment.

[GoKs]

I recognize hyperbole when I see it. They don't want you to fly over it. They never specifically said they don't want you riding through it. In fact, on Draenor, in Nagrand, you could ride a Talbuk and fight from it's back. You could also mine, gather, skin, etc, all without leaving their mount.

Again, why dont they want me to fly over it? because I skip content they created? Now I ride a ground mount, they dont daze and dismount me, I keep running. Guess what, I did the exact same thing flying does, I skipped the content they created, it only took me longer to do it.

Flying over the terrain and hazards is different to riding around them, hence there are people in this thread complaining that they need flight because they struggle dealing with the mobs and environment.

There is ZERO difference except in time spent.