Two incompatible sacred values in American universities

[Thessik-Irontail]

I found this presentation by Jon Haidt to be a very clear and fair refutation of the huge over reach of Social Justice, and why it is important to reject many of it's conclusions.

Please watch this and pass it around to all of your friends and family, especially if they are university students.

"Two incompatible sacred values in American universities" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8

I would like to know what you think after watching it as well!

[Revik]

Kind of reminds me of the issue with the character Dr. Zaius in Planet of the Apes. He is both Defender of the Faith and Ministry of Science. Something that works as long as the science supports a certain agenda. Once there is opposition or an opposing view with merit comes along it has to be immediately shunned and discounted with every fiber of your moral being.

[Deleted]

Very interesting video. Thank you for showing it.
It just doesn't make sense how people are acting these days, like what is going on?

[Afrospinach]

Well I would say I am just old enough to really feel the change to victimhood which is why I often find myself as an outsider in many discussions. Armed with moral fortitude the SJW crowd are happy to shape that into a hammer and beat dissenters down without ever questioning themselves or their ideals. Whether or not whatever they represent is true justice. Basically "blasphemy" as per the video. I think it is a very sad state of affairs right now, and the fact that it is being institutionalised at the college level pretty ominous.

It is a great video well worth watching that I would say nearly comprehensively touches on everything that is going wrong right now in media, in activism movements, on forums(lol).

also: as a non american I actually thought trigger warnings and safe spaces were a joke, not something real. I WEEP for your future.

[Mistame]

Thanks for the link. Great presentation. Can't believe I watched the entire thing. -.^

[Underverse]

Definitely a good video for anyone to watch.

[McFuu]

Just finished watching, very good presentation. Although while his goal is to jump start this paradigm shift, I find it unlikely barring a major event.
Main issue is he is asking both sides to simultaneously admit that they are wrong in their limited lines of thought and that the other side presents equally relevant information.

[Independent voter]

It's kind of long but he had a lot of good points. Like if there are only left wing professors at a university then the students will tend to lean to the left too, but there beliefs are weak because no one will challenge them as a conservative professor would.

[Foosha]

This guy is great, and clearly shows how idiotic and downright oblivious the left and SJW's are. Ruining this country, brick by brick. The one where he destroys the SJW millenial on the panel at NYU is great too.

[Asiwassaying]

Away from wifi. Can sonline give me bullet points?

[Gestopft]

This guy is great, and clearly shows how idiotic and downright oblivious the left and SJW's are. Ruining this country, brick by brick. The one where he destroys the SJW millenial on the panel at NYU is great too.

Hey now, let's stop pretending that SJWs are representative of the left as a whole. I don't pretend that everybody on the right is an Evangelical zealot.

[Foosha]

Hey now, let's stop pretending that SJWs are representative of the left as a whole. I don't pretend that everybody on the right is an Evangelical zealot.

Sure the left is a whole different "sect", but since these SJW's are insanely vocal, the left as a whole panders and coddles them. Look at college universities. This shit could be over real quick if universities and democratic officials said the word no to them

[Auxora]

It's an interesting lecture, but I think there is an important point he misses. Universities and schools are as much a bi-directional exchange of thought as they are unidirectional teaching of students by professors. And so as people/society/students change, inevitably the schools themselves adapt to fit the style of teaching that the students are interested in. And starting in the late 90's to 2000's the students are millennials, who are quite a bit different as people from the traditional students of say the 1800's schools or even 1980's.

Millennials are much more interested in changing the world for the better, improving it, and taking action. They are less interested in learning facts or having thoughts or processes forced down their throats. And so schools have adapted to match those changes in that generation. And for that reason some schools (especially the older universities) have a foot in both places so to speak between traditional top->down thinking/teaching about what problems there are in society, and instead teaching in a way that challenges students to focus more on thinking creatively about solutions to those problems (which is what the millennial students are far more interested in).

And as a side-note, I know often as soon as universities are brought up, often the right will jump to painting them as liberal SJW brainwashers. But I think that completely fails to understand how different the millennial generation is, and that they are the ones driving for change in the world themselves from a young age rather than it being programmed in them at college time. Maybe it's the effects of scaring them a little too much at an early age about war, terrorism, global warming, etc. But they are very firmly interested in changing the world for the better and trying to undo/fix the problems of past generations.

[TrumpIsPresident]

It's kind of long but he had a lot of good points. Like if there are only left wing professors at a university then the students will tend to lean to the left too, but there beliefs are weak because no one will challenge them as a conservative professor would.

Which is exactly why these Leftist indoctrination factories masquerading as "institutes of higher learning" install a deep programming in their product (students) to reject anything anybody but the Left says by means of labeling it "racist".

"I'm informed because I only listen to what the side who originally told me I was informed for listening to them says"

They condition these easily manipulable youths to instantly trigger into a state of "oh my god ur a racist" hysteria the moment their highly radicalized extremist agenda is challenged even in the slightest way ...even from within their own circles.

It is the definition of a self-reinforcing delusion.

This SJW plague of using the false QQ shield of "everybody's a racist but us" needs to fucking die a swift death because it is a direct impenetrable barrier to progress.

Until then the best that the rest of us normal productive members of society can do is to shut them out.

For my position...

Persons holding "degrees" from these indoctrination factories get auto-filtered when they come looking for a job.

SJW radicals need not apply, they can go fuck themselves and park their radical Leftists bullshit behind a Starbucks counter where it belongs.

-

And you know not to go too racial here but Blacks of the past generations have worked damned hard to set good standards for the next generation to follow and build upon.

This race flame SJW bullshit culture shreds those efforts and instills a plantation mentality in the minds of these young Blacks.

"Oh no you poor poor Black person, you're such a victim, you're so damaged, you need us to take care of you, here stand in front of me, be the facade for radical bullshit, don't worry I'll manage everything for you just be my human shield."

You want to talk about institutionalized racism? ...there it is folks.

[Nadiru]

It's an interesting lecture, but I think there is an important point he misses. Universities and schools are as much a bi-directional exchange of thought as they are unidirectional teaching of students by professors. And so as people/society/students change, inevitably the schools themselves adapt to fit the style of teaching that the students are interested in. And starting in the late 90's to 2000's the students are millennials, who are quite a bit different as people from the traditional students of say the 1800's schools or even 1980's.

Millennials are much more interested in changing the world for the better, improving it, and taking action. They are less interested in learning facts or having thoughts or processes forced down their throats. And so schools have adapted to match those changes in that generation. And for that reason some schools (especially the older universities) have a foot in both places so to speak between traditional top->down thinking/teaching about what problems there are in society, and instead teaching in a way that challenges students to focus more on thinking creatively about solutions to those problems (which is what the millennial students are far more interested in).

And as a side-note, I know often as soon as universities are brought up, often the right will jump to painting them as liberal SJW brainwashers. But I think that completely fails to understand how different the millennial generation is, and that they are the ones driving for change in the world themselves from a young age rather than it being programmed in them at college time. Maybe it's the effects of scaring them a little too much at an early age about war, terrorism, global warming, etc. But they are very firmly interested in changing the world for the better and trying to undo/fix the problems of past generations.

Probably because bi-directional lectures devolve into social signalling in the presence of social justice advocates, because Millennials have largely not been taught formal debate, nor have they been taught to separate themselves from their arguments. Which is kinda what Haidt's talking about, really: The transition of a culture that fosters debate into a culture that fosters ideological purity. And whether it's intentional or not, the end result of that culture shift is brutal censorship. People getting death threats in the middle of the night, people losing their jobs, etc, etc.

Censorship is not a top-down reaction chasing down an idea after it has gained popularity. That's Fischer Price's "My First Dictatorship"; some fairy tale plebs tell their children if they do bad things. Real censorship is a multi-layered process. In order to prevent popularity of an idea, you have to prevent the idea from being spoken.

The Layers:
1) Reward acceptable behavior - The source of these gold stars must be an interface for authority. This creates the second layer:

2) Associating positivity with interfaces of authority. - This naturally creates an environment where failure to provide gold stars (by failing to accept the hand-waving) is not just a simple misunderstanding of semantics, but is, instead, a direct call for violent, identity-preserving confrontation. This is the third layer:

3) Punishing those who do not provide gold stars. - The interface for authority can never dole out the punishment since the positive Pavlovian reinforcement must never be broken. This means that the offended must be free and even encouraged to punish the offender. This leads to the fourth layer of censorship:

4) Fear of confrontation. - As people have ideas in the future, they must filter them against previous examples of communication-inspired conflict. This creates the fifth layer of censorship:

5) Self-censorship. Once fear of confrontation has taken hold as the law of the land, people will voluntarily eliminate their own ideas (and anything that is similar) out of fear that simply having them will provoke conflict.

[Zecora]

It's kind of long but he had a lot of good points. Like if there are only left wing professors at a university then the students will tend to lean to the left too, but there beliefs are weak because no one will challenge them as a conservative professor would.

I am guessing you missed the thread about the teacher who challenged his students on the freedom of speech by burning the US flag, and the resultant howling choirus of conservative and neo-lib rightwingers on this forum. Or maybe you didn't, and you just chose to overlook how the statement is quite frankly, bullshit.

Students are challenged just as much by teachers and lecturers from BOTH sides of the political spectrum, but they may be challenged on different issues.

[tehealadin]

Students are challenged just as much by teachers and lecturers from BOTH sides of the political spectrum, but they may be challenged on different issues.

Exactly. The speaker mentions the flag as an example of the right rallying behind something and making it sacred. It isn't a left/right thing. Groups do this, regardless of where they lie on the political spectrum.

[Spectral]

Millennials are much more interested in changing the world for the better, improving it, and taking action. They are less interested in learning facts or having thoughts or processes forced down their throats.

This right here is the core of the problem. Idealists that don't actually know anything about facts and processes are trying (and in many cases actually affecting) change - this is a terrible idea! Affecting change that actually improves the world requires deep, fact-based understanding of how things work and what the potential consequences of actions are. Without this, someone blindly doing what feels right has potential to damage institutions and cultures with little upside.

And as a side-note, I know often as soon as universities are brought up, often the right will jump to painting them as liberal SJW brainwashers. But I think that completely fails to understand how different the millennial generation is, and that they are the ones driving for change in the world themselves from a young age rather than it being programmed in them at college time. Maybe it's the effects of scaring them a little too much at an early age about war, terrorism, global warming, etc. But they are very firmly interested in changing the world for the better and trying to undo/fix the problems of past generations.

I feel that it's important to note that not all millennials are actually this shallow - a decent number of them are still engaged in getting the actual underpinnings of the world down by learning about science, philosophy, and history. The proliferation of the vocally ignorant social justice groups makes it easy to miss the kids with their heads down learning about classics, physics, biology, history, and so on.

[stabetha]

Hey now, let's stop pretending that SJWs are representative of the left as a whole. I don't pretend that everybody on the right is an Evangelical zealot.

you may not, but the vast majority of posters here do.

[Underverse]

Sure the left is a whole different "sect", but since these SJW's are insanely vocal, the left as a whole panders and coddles them. Look at college universities. This shit could be over real quick if universities and democratic officials said the word no to them

No, they don't. A lot of professors do because, as stated in the video, they're afraid of legal action. And a lot of others do because, as stated in the video, they're afraid of being crucified on social media.

The social justice warriors are still a vocal minority ridiculed by the majority of the left (myself included).

- - - Updated - - -

you may not, but the vast majority of posters here do.

I don't think you have the data to make that assertion.

- - - Updated - - -

It's an interesting lecture, but I think there is an important point he misses. Universities and schools are as much a bi-directional exchange of thought as they are unidirectional teaching of students by professors. And so as people/society/students change, inevitably the schools themselves adapt to fit the style of teaching that the students are interested in. And starting in the late 90's to 2000's the students are millennials, who are quite a bit different as people from the traditional students of say the 1800's schools or even 1980's.

Millennials are much more interested in changing the world for the better, improving it, and taking action. They are less interested in learning facts or having thoughts or processes forced down their throats. And so schools have adapted to match those changes in that generation. And for that reason some schools (especially the older universities) have a foot in both places so to speak between traditional top->down thinking/teaching about what problems there are in society, and instead teaching in a way that challenges students to focus more on thinking creatively about solutions to those problems (which is what the millennial students are far more interested in).

And as a side-note, I know often as soon as universities are brought up, often the right will jump to painting them as liberal SJW brainwashers. But I think that completely fails to understand how different the millennial generation is, and that they are the ones driving for change in the world themselves from a young age rather than it being programmed in them at college time. Maybe it's the effects of scaring them a little too much at an early age about war, terrorism, global warming, etc. But they are very firmly interested in changing the world for the better and trying to undo/fix the problems of past generations.

He didn't miss this point. The entire lecture was founded on this point, in fact. His argument was simply that universities have to choose whether to be schools that pursue truth as their goal, or school that pursue change (which would be your bidirectional exchange method).

- - - Updated - - -

Which is exactly why these Leftist indoctrination factories masquerading as "institutes of higher learning" install a deep programming in their product (students) to reject anything anybody but the Left says by means of labeling it "racist".

"I'm informed because I only listen to what the side who originally told me I was informed for listening to them says"

They condition these easily manipulable youths to instantly trigger into a state of "oh my god ur a racist" hysteria the moment their highly radicalized extremist agenda is challenged even in the slightest way ...even from within their own circles.

It is the definition of a self-reinforcing delusion.

This SJW plague of using the false QQ shield of "everybody's a racist but us" needs to fucking die a swift death because it is a direct impenetrable barrier to progress.

Until then the best that the rest of us normal productive members of society can do is to shut them out.

For my position...

Persons holding "degrees" from these indoctrination factories get auto-filtered when they come looking for a job.

SJW radicals need not apply, they can go fuck themselves and park their radical Leftists bullshit behind a Starbucks counter where it belongs.

-

And you know not to go too racial here but Blacks of the past generations have worked damned hard to set good standards for the next generation to follow and build upon.

This race flame SJW bullshit culture shreds those efforts and instills a plantation mentality in the minds of these young Blacks.

"Oh no you poor poor Black person, you're such a victim, you're so damaged, you need us to take care of you, here stand in front of me, be the facade for radical bullshit, don't worry I'll manage everything for you just be my human shield."

You want to talk about institutionalized racism? ...there it is folks.

Can you stop with this conflation of 'left' and 'social justice warrior'? It's unnecessarily partisan; social justice warriors aren't even leftists in actual ideology; they're regressives who, in practice, are more conservative then not, promoting ideas of segregation and racism just under slightly different conditions.

If you want to combat an idea, don't paint all of those you're trying to convince as your enemies.