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  1. #1
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    Pyromaniac vs Conflag, CiS vs Kindling

    Hi, i come here because i am kinda lost at the moment. I'm not really that good about theorycraft but i'm obsessed with optimisation.

    Firstly, i saw that Pyromaniac was better on ST but with high crit there was a chance on munching hot streak procs so most people stays with Conflag. Seeing it like that i can understand. However, if we pair it with Kindling, isn't Pyromaniac WAY better? (More proc Pyro => more spell casted => more spell crit=> shorter CD on Combu)

    Secondly, I had the misconception that CiS was mainly for multi-targets and AoE whereas Kindling was for single-target but i see more and more people using CiS on ST (Rikh is one of them using it on all fights). I'm fine with both talents and atm i was using CiS on Il'gynoth, Dragons, Spider, whenever there was some multi-target (kept Kindling on Cenarius for combu when adds).

    I see that most people are still using Kindling. I'm not a great player but when i see 1 or 2 mage top world using CiS i tell myself there's probably a reason. They do theorycraft and search for ways to bring out all the potential of the class... Or maybe i'm missing something.

    I hope you can enlighten me.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rouedkaross View Post
    (Rikh is one of them using it on all fights)
    Rikhlulz: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...724582/latest/

    Pretty much kindling on every fight.

    I have Sinew and tried Cinderstorm for a couple weeks. I was even using a WA to track how many Cinders were hitting. I was still doing less damage than I was with Kindling for some reason. Most top parses are using Kindling even though Sims show Cinder having a very small increase.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Pyromaniac is better on single target but worse even on 2 targets. Kindling is better on complex content like 5mans or anything that needs very frequent nukes. I find Cinderstorm better on sustained/monolithic/progressive fights because it makes the fight more convenient.

    I hear a lot of calls for Kindling on all fights but I find it nonsense. The usual argument is the extra Combustion from logs. But the top 10 is rarely an indication of what you should be doing because you can't control when an npc will die exactly, especially on progress.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    Pyromaniac is better on single target but worse even on 2 targets. Kindling is better on complex content like 5mans or anything that needs very frequent nukes. I find Cinderstorm better on sustained/monolithic/progressive fights because it makes the fight more convenient.

    I hear a lot of calls for Kindling on all fights but I find it nonsense. The usual argument is the extra Combustion from logs. But the top 10 is rarely an indication of what you should be doing because you can't control when an npc will die exactly, especially on progress.
    i disgree, Cinderstorm imo, doesnt make fights more convenient but rather further impeeds our mobility and its a pain to use in dungeons unless you want to behave like a huntard, ofc you can position yourself properly but that costs valuable dps as well and correct me if im wrong but cinderstorm is only ahead of kindling if you consistently hit with 5-6 of the cinders, ofc that doesnt mean i cant see its benefits i just personally find it too unruly to be of any reliable use.

    not sure what you mean in your 2nd part of your post, bcoz you'd never want to use a combust on a too low hp target and you'll definately be able to kill your target faster with combust, how much you get out of your extra combust is entirely up to you, there are definately plenty of raid bosses where the extra combusts will be of more value than cinderstorm but at the end of the day it depends on what you prefer, cinderstorm can give you a dps boost over kindling but kindling is definately more consistant.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    not sure what you mean in your 2nd part of your post, bcoz you'd never want to use a combust on a too low hp target and you'll definately be able to kill your target faster with combust, how much you get out of your extra combust is entirely up to you, there are definately plenty of raid bosses where the extra combusts will be of more value than cinderstorm but at the end of the day it depends on what you prefer, cinderstorm can give you a dps boost over kindling but kindling is definately more consistant.
    I believe his argument is, essentially, that sometimes Kindling might be totally useless on a fight if the length is between certain ranges. For example, on, say, a 2.5 minute fight, you're going to get exactly 2 Combustions off whether you have Kindling or no Kindling (barring some extreme crit RNG), so taking Kindling is essentially like not having a tier 100 talent. He's just saying that the blanket statement of "Always take kindling" isn't necessarily correct.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    Pyromaniac is better on single target but worse even on 2 targets. Kindling is better on complex content like 5mans or anything that needs very frequent nukes. I find Cinderstorm better on sustained/monolithic/progressive fights because it makes the fight more convenient.

    I hear a lot of calls for Kindling on all fights but I find it nonsense. The usual argument is the extra Combustion from logs. But the top 10 is rarely an indication of what you should be doing because you can't control when an npc will die exactly, especially on progress.
    I'm not sure why you believe that you'd have to "control when an npc will die exactly" for Kindling to beat Cinder Storm. Both have strong time intervals and weak time intervals. If you know exactly how long a fight will take, you can make an educated choice for either talent depending on which will fit better. If you don't, either talent can work out well or not work out well depending on the exact fight duration you end up with.

  7. #7
    From what I've noticed is that, Kindling scales better than Cinderstorm.. At least from crit. Even with Sinew, I'm getting better results and I sim higher with Kindling.. though not by much.

    Pyromaniac on the other hand is slight singletarget boost over Conflag.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    Pyromaniac is better on single target but worse even on 2 targets. Kindling is better on complex content like 5mans or anything that needs very frequent nukes. I find Cinderstorm better on sustained/monolithic/progressive fights because it makes the fight more convenient.

    I hear a lot of calls for Kindling on all fights but I find it nonsense. The usual argument is the extra Combustion from logs. But the top 10 is rarely an indication of what you should be doing because you can't control when an npc will die exactly, especially on progress.
    This makes absolutely zero sense.

  9. #9
    Kindling is much easier to play optimally on progression than CiS. And will net better numbers for the vast majority of players.

  10. #10
    As was stated already, most fights will favor Kindling, however there are definitely fights where Cinderstorm shines or where Kindling doesn't do all that much. One example would be Evil-Tree-Eye-Thing on heroic, where you kill it in one phase - Kindling literally does nothing on that fight. Depending on your particular Mythic strategy, you may want to maximize burn phase damage there as well, and Kindling is fairly useless when you're only looking at damage in a 1-minute interval.

    Another situation is fights with consistent multiple targets. Examples from this tier would be Dragons of Nightmare and even Ursoc (depending on how good your total add damage is, I suppose). Even for Xavius you could make an argument for Cinderstorm, as Dream resets Combustion anyway (potentially wasting Kindling benefit) and you have other stuff to hit during several phases (although you could argue it's largely padding in the last phase).

    It helps to plan ahead. While it's true you can't EXACTLY predict a fight length (especially during progression), you can estimate it fairly well most of the time. Along with an estimate for Kindling procs, you can at least approximate the value of Kindling for a given fight. That is then refined by fight-specific demands, such as e.g. having Combustion up for Cenarius adds etc. and you can make your choice based around that.

  11. #11
    If you can hit six cinders every time then once you get the sinew trinket cinderstorm gives the same DPS as kindling. Buuut that's a pretty big if. This is also assuming some variation in fight length. If the length is such that kindling will always make you end a fight with ten seconds of combustion, whereas cinderstorm would have combustion just about to come off CD then kindling is better - and vice versa.

    On add fights the potential of cinderstorm is very high, but again this is only true if you are able to consistently hit multiple targets. Personally I prefer cinderstorm for the additional burst AoE it brings, but I will swap to kindling if for example it works out better with add timings or phase changes.

  12. #12
    Conflag is good and all but in raids you dont really cast fireball that much to keep it up 100% with kindling therefore pyromaniac is better since getting more pryos is always a good thing and it procs alot thanks to the new way fire works.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Conflag is good and all but in raids you dont really cast fireball that much to keep it up 100% with kindling therefore pyromaniac is better since getting more pryos is always a good thing and it procs alot thanks to the new way fire works.

    What exactly are you casting that you're not casting fireballs in raids? Conflag pretty much only ever drops off when there's a break in dpsing and during combustion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    i disgree, Cinderstorm imo, doesnt make fights more convenient but rather further impeeds our mobility and its a pain to use in dungeons unless you want to behave like a huntard, ofc you can position yourself properly but that costs valuable dps as well and correct me if im wrong but cinderstorm is only ahead of kindling if you consistently hit with 5-6 of the cinders, ofc that doesnt mean i cant see its benefits i just personally find it too unruly to be of any reliable use.

    not sure what you mean in your 2nd part of your post, bcoz you'd never want to use a combust on a too low hp target and you'll definately be able to kill your target faster with combust, how much you get out of your extra combust is entirely up to you, there are definately plenty of raid bosses where the extra combusts will be of more value than cinderstorm but at the end of the day it depends on what you prefer, cinderstorm can give you a dps boost over kindling but kindling is definately more consistant.
    Cinderstorm is shit in 5mans, I was talking about monolithic style encounters which often means raiding, at a stretch a fight that does have phases but no burn phases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    I'm not sure why you believe that you'd have to "control when an npc will die exactly" for Kindling to beat Cinder Storm. Both have strong time intervals and weak time intervals. If you know exactly how long a fight will take, you can make an educated choice for either talent depending on which will fit better. If you don't, either talent can work out well or not work out well depending on the exact fight duration you end up with.
    You've no idea how long a fight will take. That's most important in progress where this matters the most. Other dpses might die (or not).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TiltEV View Post
    This makes absolutely zero sense.
    Because I have explained it elsewhere and I thought it would make sense. To put it simply here, if a fight has a flat monolithic progression. e.g. no major switches into burn phases or no priority targets or no frequent nukes needed (see 5mans or special raid fights with rapidly successive burn phases) then Cinderstorm can be more convenient. Convenient because you will offload the damage on the boss at less frequent moments and hence those moments might be more carefully planned. I found 2 examples, on Nythendra Kindling would line up Combustion with being MC'ed, which was shit, and on Elerethe Cinderstorm would line up with the platform switch being completed, which was great.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    You've no idea how long a fight will take. That's most important in progress where this matters the most. Other dpses might die (or not).
    Let's recapitulate:
    Me: You don't need to know how long the fight lasts to gain a significant benefit on average since in either case, combustion timing can work out well or badly.
    You: "You've no idea how long a fight will take."

    I'm sorry but you're not exactly taking part in the discussion if all you do is repeat your already rebutted talking points.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    I found 2 examples, on Nythendra Kindling would line up Combustion with being MC'ed, which was shit
    Curnivore 129.50m 872ilvl 67%bracket 331,709.5 DPS (CiS)
    Stevenho 142.97m 867ilvl 98%bracket 372,172.6 DPS (Kind)

    Looks like kindling is doing quite fine on Nythendra. Perhaps you need to learn how to play it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Curnivore 129.50m 872ilvl 67%bracket 331,709.5 DPS (CiS)
    Stevenho 142.97m 867ilvl 98%bracket 372,172.6 DPS (Kind)

    Looks like kindling is doing quite fine on Nythendra. Perhaps you need to learn how to play it.
    how do you not understand that this comparison makes zero sense? trying really hard not to flame you

  18. #18
    Does 9 out of 10 top Nyth logs using kindling make more sense perhaps?

  19. #19
    Ilganoth is the only fight where Cinder is better, honestly. Conflag is so close to pyro on ST and so much stronger than pyro on AOE that I just use it all the time.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    Ilganoth is the only fight where Cinder is better, honestly. Conflag is so close to pyro on ST and so much stronger than pyro on AOE that I just use it all the time.
    i do the same, i dont bother switching bcoz its a very minor dps loss and a huge gain for aoe when you take conflag, also pyromancer is a weird talent tbh or rather it functions weirdly, you have to really be on point when you get a proc and react to it fast or you dont really get anything from it, i feel its a really bad talent mechanically, especially during openers where its almost impossible to react to bcoz most ppl will pop a fireblast the second you release a pyro, so conflag makes more sense.

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