Unholy Death Coil Buffed!

[Schizoide]

Viable means you do reasonable damage based on your performance that is amongst others (and not lower than anybody else) while you cant compete with the top dogs

No. That is not what the word actually means.

[TiaMaster]

No. That is not what the word actually means.

Actually, in regards to THIS game, you will be sat if your class sucks. This means you are not viable.

[spanishninja]

Actually, in regards to THIS game, you will be sat if your class sucks. This means you are not viable.

that happens in only top guilds. And I'm sorry to say this, a vast majority of us (me included) are not top 50 guild material.

[Deleted]

that happens in only top guilds. And I'm sorry to say this, a vast majority of us (me included) are not top 50 guild material.

No, not really. Any guild pushing Mythic, unless it has a very established core of 20 people that are online at the raid start in every single raid day, and no one ever fails to show. Otherwise, every single other Mythic guild always has a small group of players they can sub in for someone else in case someone is underperforming or has to miss a raid.

And guess what, those someones that are on the bench in every single Mythic guild will take every chance they get to get off the bench on the regular, if they actually want to raid. If your class is underperforming and scaling poorly, that someone on the bench will be coming for your spot. And this doesn't happen only in top50 guilds, it happens in every single mythic progression guild, with the exception of guilds like the ones I described above, which as you can imagine, are a very very small minority of all Mythic guilds.

[Gridsquare]

I agree with Spanish...most of us are not top 200 guild raiders. My guild is doing mythics, slowly, but surely, and I'm ok with that. I am 873 ilvl and stay in the top 5 dps on all our fights except the Eyeball Vagina-Tree. I've had people look at our logs and tell me that it's crazy that our ranged and other melee are not above me, but that's part of being in a regular guild. If you expect top 200 performance and numbers from a "casual/semi-hardcore" guild's entire raid team...that's insane. Am I happy with where we are on sims? No. Am I ok where I sit with my guild? Damn skippy.

Now, as far as mythic + groups, I get declined all the damn time. It sucks, but there's tons of groups out there. I link my dps rankings to the leader and get invites pretty regularly after that. The big thing is knowing how to play the class. It's easy to complain about sims, which don't accurately represent performance at all. All I'm saying: Could DK's use a little bit more love other than Death Coil? Sure. Are we the worst class in the game? Hardly. Unless you're in one of these top 200 guilds, you've got nothing to worry about. Simply get your numbers up there, do mechanics well and take as little damage as possible, LOG EVERYTHING, and there's no reason most guilds would sit a good player.

[spanishninja]

No, not really. Any guild pushing Mythic, unless it has a very established core of 20 people that are online at the raid start in every single raid day, and no one ever fails to show. Otherwise, every single other Mythic guild always has a small group of players they can sub in for someone else in case someone is underperforming or has to miss a raid.

And guess what, those someones that are on the bench in every single Mythic guild will take every chance they get to get off the bench on the regular, if they actually want to raid. If your class is underperforming and scaling poorly, that someone on the bench will be coming for your spot. And this doesn't happen only in top50 guilds, it happens in every single mythic progression guild, with the exception of guilds like the ones I described above, which as you can imagine, are a very very small minority of all Mythic guilds.

either you don't play your class well enough to potential or all of your guildies are 99% parsing raiders, which would be highly unlikely in a guild outside of top 50. Mythic EN is simply not tuned to where it would require anything close to that type of output, so yes, it is definitely not out of the ordinary for a guild of smart raiders to make it through 7/7M with a reasonable amount of raid time and with unholy DKs as part of the mix.

[Schizoide]

It doesn't matter if your guild sits you because your class sucks. That's because you can't compete, not because you aren't viable. Stop trying to redefine words.

[spanishninja]

It doesn't matter if your guild sits you because your class sucks. That's because you can't compete, not because you aren't viable. Stop trying to redefine words.

For a vast majority of guilds that are not competing for top 50, killing the bosses is the most requirement. If I ever get sat for mythic progression, it is because I am failing mechanics, not because I can't compete for the top spot.

[Schizoide]

Yep, that is the definition of viable.

[Deleted]

either you don't play your class well enough to potential or all of your guildies are 99% parsing raiders, which would be highly unlikely in a guild outside of top 50. Mythic EN is simply not tuned to where it would require anything close to that type of output, so yes, it is definitely not out of the ordinary for a guild of smart raiders to make it through 7/7M with a reasonable amount of raid time and with unholy DKs as part of the mix.

It has nothing to do with damage output required to kill bosses, and personally, I'm not in a position where I'm getting benched because 1) my guild has slight roster issues and b) I'm one of the best performers (in terms of percentile, that is), but I wasn't talking about myself in particular. If you have someone in the bench that can do as much damage than an Unholy DK, or even slightly less, but brings more mobility, utility, you can bet your ass the DK will get sat unless he's got some real good friends in the guild.

It's a simple competition. Your guild or mine might not have too much to pick from, but in truly competitive guilds (and there are many outside of top50), there is. And in a theoretical environment where you have 25 people, all with similar or equal skill, if out of those 25, 2 are DKs, they will be sat out in favor of other classes, simply because they bring subpar DPS, no mobility and very little utility. That simple.

[Angeredsoul]

Blue regarding rogues. "Separately from Roll the Bones, we do feel that Outlaw’s DPS has ended up a little lower than we’d like it to be, and are looking into some options to bring it up a bit."

Cool no problems Blizzard, I'll just hang in the corner here.

[Akakishin]

@spanishninja
Viable, underperforming and competing have nothing to do with whether you are benched, in top50 guilds or w/e. In game design and matter of balancing, metas (max output per each playable class and max output of all of them) that you set are the defining factors of what the avg low and avg high gonna be and whats the differentiating percent between them. Viable and competence specs are now based on where your "pick to play" is in that designed meta. So in this game there is 12 classes with 24 dps specs. To balance freedom of choice and ofc output, spcly for those who dont have more than one choice to go with (to dps) 1 choice per 1 category (class) is the ideal type. Those 1 choices for each class are the avg high with one defining meta point and one defining lower point of that pack.

So, which dk dps spec is in the avg high pack? None. You know why? Cuz some classes have two choices to go with for top pack. If you are not placed in that 1 choice per class (at the very least) you are not viable in this game you know why?.
Cuz a. there is more than 11 specs outperforming you and b. Dps spots are limited bcuz c. Some specs are favored because of what they bring into the table. .
Keep telling us what viable means. Dks cant survive out of the womb unless there is no other chice or underperforming ppl...

P.s i dfntly agree with @Skazord even if we are chosen, still we are not balanced number wise or utility wise. Unless blizzard has some secret design recipe they go with ( which they dont) this is wrong. You don't balance your game around " well they'll be picked anyway in some cases" lol

[Xirrohon]

My guild is 5/7 Mythic not the best but definitely not the worst. We have a UH and a Frost DK. So... Yea, being benched shouldnt be a problem. I forgot what boss it was. I think it was M Ursoc but our Frost DK at the time was the only one to have killed it. Lol

[Baddok21]

For the time being if your going to play frost or any DK for that matter, you have to put in the work grinding out those M+'s to make sure you have the highest rank weapon and bets possible gear for each slot.

not alot of room for coasting like on some classes, there's A LOT of ground to cover.

[0verdose]

Blue regarding rogues. "Separately from Roll the Bones, we do feel that Outlaw’s DPS has ended up a little lower than we’d like it to be, and are looking into some options to bring it up a bit."

Cool no problems Blizzard, I'll just hang in the corner here.

Wow so rogues get a blue post but we don't. And unholy is probably close or even just as much rng dependent as outlaw is. "Outlaw dps is Lower than we expected." It really doesn't surprise me that blizz would never say that about us death knights. They have something against hero classes, it's like they create them to sell subs but then just throw them aside after that expansion is done. Why even keep the hero classes if the balance team refuses to do anything to fix us. It's like we are trading design perks + cool lore/weap/armor for lack of dps and solid gameplay.

[Schizoide]

Outlaw is terrible and deserves a buff. Don't be petty, other specs need help too.

[GT4]

For a vast majority of guilds that are not competing for top 50, killing the bosses is the most requirement. If I ever get sat for mythic progression, it is because I am failing mechanics, not because I can't compete for the top spot.

You're being very ignorant if all you ever do is extrapolate from your own position without even considering that others might be in different situations.

Small example: It's not exactly unlikely for a guild with 2-3 raiding days to have a very good melee lineup with the rest of the guild's roster being extremely inconsistent. Then you have numerous fights where even an average hunter/mage/SP or even lock will easily be more beneficial than bringing e.g. an 8th melee, no matter how well that melee plays. Now which melee are you going to bench? If all melees were performing on a somewhat even level, you could rotate depending on the encounter in question. If one melee is significantly outperformed by other melees on basically all fights, you know which melee will be benched every time.

[spanishninja]

You're being very ignorant if all you ever do is extrapolate from your own position without even considering that others might be in different situations.

Small example: It's not exactly unlikely for a guild with 2-3 raiding days to have a very good melee lineup with the rest of the guild's roster being extremely inconsistent. Then you have numerous fights where even an average hunter/mage/SP or even lock will easily be more beneficial than bringing e.g. an 8th melee, no matter how well that melee plays. Now which melee are you going to bench? If all melees were performing on a somewhat even level, you could rotate depending on the encounter in question. If one melee is significantly outperformed by other melees on basically all fights, you know which melee will be benched every time.

I never claimed that my position is universal. I said "for a vast majority of guilds", having an unholy DK is not a hindrance to guild success. This is completely true. There is so much argument here about the consequences of unholy dks not being buffed, but who of us has actually been sat for a raid because of our damage? I'm betting none so far. But prove me wrong. Tell me cases where it has happened and then show me logs. Chances are if a 3-day guild is routinely having to sit people, it is either because they vastly overrecruited or there are severe attendance issues, neither of which are the case in my guild.

[sunbrother]

Regardless of viability, we are objectively the worst class right now for mythic progression.

I never played MoP, but I don't think we have ever been in this kind of position where all 3 specs are garbage.

[Schizoide]

Second-worst, actually. Both warrior DPS specs are lower.

Lots of buffs in 2 days, hope for the best.