Nightborne are clearly a Highborne thing

[Aucald]

This thread doesn't seem very different in theme from the other i.e. the Night Elf/Highborne divide. I am merging this thread into the other one to consolidate the conversation.

[Zulkhan]

The Nightborne call themselves Shal'dorei and, much like the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei, they mutated to a different kind of elf. That's what matters at the end, what each group calls themselves in canon.

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Not close the true. Both Nightborne and High Elves are arcane mutations of the noble Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't evolution of the High Elves, they are just a political split.

This post says everything needed to be said and does so in less than 4 lines. See guys, it isn't hard.

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The Nightborne/Suramar storyline is itself a B-plot to the Legion invasion, much the same as the the Arakkoa storyline was a B-plot in WoD.

Not a worthy comparison honestly. The Arakkoa storyline really felt like a B-plot; Suramar is the focal point of the Legion invasion in the Broken Isles, it will be even more in the 7.1. The Nighthold will be the raid where we'll face Gul'dan for good.

[Aucald]

Not a worthy comparison honestly. The Arakkoa storyline really felt like a B-plot; Suramar is the focal point of the Legion invasion in the Broken Isles, it will be even more in the 7.1. The Nighthold will be the raid where we'll face Gul'dan for good.

The Suramar arc is more important than the Arakkoa arc was in WoD, that I grant you; but I don't think the comparison is apples vs. oranges, either. The Arakkoa were important all the way up to WoD's closing act in Hellfire Citadel, with Iskar serving Gul'dan and even showing up as a raid boss himself. The parallels are pretty strong in my view - but because the Nightborne are part of a marquee player race they're going to get more of an in-depth involvement in the story. The Nighthold is also not the closing act of Legion, I kind of see it more in the manner of Ulduar in WotLK - although unlike Ulduar it does have a direct connection to the current expansion's theme (e.g. Gul'dan and the Legion desire to take possession of the Shal'dorei Nightwell).

[ravenmoon]

The Nightborne call themselves Shal'dorei and, much like the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei, they mutated to a different kind of elf. That's what matters at the end, what each group calls themselves in canon.

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Not close the true. Both Nightborne and High Elves are arcane mutations of the noble Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't evolution of the High Elves, they are just a political split.

have you noticed that highborne never call themselves night elves or kaldorei, always highborne.. given that they are kaldorei, the impression I get of the highborne group is that plain kaldorei is considered ordinary, whereas quel'dorei, and now shal'dorei is more like a marked status symbol - like "we are the special ones."which you hear them saying when you kill them.

You can imagine this is exactly what night elves in the arcane empire days felt or would comment - they were thousands of years ahead of anyone else back then . In seeing the nightborne portrayed I feel a much better understanding of the pre-sundering night elves. The whole thing about calling themselvces Kal'dorei, they really felt they were special and chosen. Chosen of Elune, the chosen world people. Stemming from Azshara I get the impression they felt they were the ones to make Azeroth into the most amazing and beautiful place ever, which is why they were so horrified and broken by being responsible for the Legion... and it's funny, Azshara welcomes Sargeras because she wants to start the wold over without "lesser races".

[Rhlor]

Nightborne are Highborne thing, not night elf or Blood elf.

The introduction of the nightborne has obviously caused quite a buzz about the elven community... lots of talk about the blood elves getting a new addition, a handful of people feeling it's a night elven addition, a lot also thinking it's a completely new group/thing set up to be a 3rd elven main race.

Whiles we cannot deny there is a similarity to the blood elves who share a lot in common with the nightborne, and while we cannot deny that pretty much everything about the nightborne is night elven in origin very few have realized the overwhelming HIGHBORNE connection that speaks louder than every other vein. The night elf highborne.

Looking closely at the nightborne - it is without a doubt the arcane night elf group the Highborne that has been expanded. Whiles you could argue about the technicality of highborne being night elf, or being high elf since high elves came from that... the very high arcane night elven nature of the nightborne has HIGHBORNE screaming out very loudly emphatically the the nocturnal group, not the diurnal group - making it primarily night elf concerned rather than a high/blood elf thing (and that's not invalidating their is connection). Highborne never refer to themselves as night elves even though they have the night elf appearance, and nightborne is a lot closer to highborne than it is high elf/night elf - to me this all indicates that they are development of the highborne into a serious thing in the night elf category. It's own separate group.

There is a reason you've never felt the nightborne don't quite fit the night elf thing, that's because they're based on the Highborne group, the arcane night elf group you've really onlly had glimpses of in ruins with the Shen'dralar and not had a proper look till now. There is no longer any doubt in my mind, this is a highborne thing. And being highborne while a night elf thing it provides a bridge and strong connection to the high/blood elves.

Even the music of the zone/themes are shared with Azsuna strongly -could we dare to conclude, that blizzard is making in the nightborne the highborne into a race of it's own?

It seems clear to me that the nightborne are blizzard greatly expanding primarily the Highborne, and secondarily the night elf

the nightborne are nightborne, they have their own culture, their own language and call themselves shaldorei.

the only true Highborne Both in culture and physiology are Shen'dralar.

I want to know more lore shendrelar I am happy that add a bit of lore and now we know that the Prince Tortheldrin still alive

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Prince_Tortheldrin

[ravenmoon]

I'm unsure why people feel that Legion is primarily Night Elf focused, or even Elven focused in general. The Nightborne/Suramar storyline is itself a B-plot to the Legion invasion, much the same as the the Arakkoa storyline was a B-plot in WoD. It's very interesting to much of the playerbase and I think Blizzard has keyed in on that, but it is still not the main theme nor do I feel it has eclipsed the Legion threat that is the true theme of the expansion. Also, Night Elven history is something that has been largely unexplored in-game, usually the focus on the Night Elves concerns Malfurion and Druidism in the current age (e.g. the Nightmare in Classic, the Hyjal/Firelands conflict in Cata, etc. etc.) It's good to get some in-game focus on events as important as the War of the Ancients and the ancient Highborne schism, even if it isn't necessarily everyone's favorite storyline. I'm personally not very keen on the Human/Vrykul history, as I find the Vrykul in general to be somewhat two-dimensional and needlessly hostile - but I understand why they're also getting focus in this expansion.

yeah, without a doubt the Legion is the main focus of the expansion, you get that through and through.

I mean Archmage Khadgar is the main Protagonist, and Gul'dan the main Antagonist -- with Illidan and Kil'jaeden on oppoiste sides behind them, and ultimately Azeroth and Sargeras behind them. Even the great elven hero Illidan is tertiary and he doesn't even play a role in the expansion till after Nighthold.

Whiles Suramar is a focus point for now, it's basically Tanaan jungle done first - because after the Nightold raid, they stop being a focus of the main plot.

And I think the nightborne are the night elf replacement for handling the legion. At least they kept it in the night family. I was very disappointed at first that it wasn't Tyrande and Malfurion calling the shots on the Legion invasion. I'm glad that the Shal'dorei are the main night elven race in the front line - or will be after Nighthold. It's high time the highborne play a leading role in the conflict they are credited with starting. They are the night elf group that bears the responsibility of attracting the legion here.

[Zulkhan]

The Suramar arc is more important than the Arakkoa arc was in WoD, that I grant you; but I don't think the comparison is apples vs. oranges, either. The Arakkoa were important all the way up to WoD's closing act in Hellfire Citadel, with Iskar serving Gul'dan and even showing up as a raid boss himself. The parallels are pretty strong in my view - but because the Nightborne are part of a marquee player race they're going to get more of an in-depth involvement in the story. The Nighthold is also not the closing act of Legion, I kind of see it more in the manner of Ulduar in WotLK - although unlike Ulduar it does have a direct connection to the current expansion's theme (e.g. Gul'dan and the Legion desire to take possession of the Shal'dorei Nightwell).

Yeah but the Arakkoa involvement in HFC was still very minor on the end of the day, they literally filled a room and nothing else in the whole place. The short-story was nice but in-game there wasn't much in regards to Arakkoa. Nightborne felt definitely more important until now and will be so until the "boiling point" of the Nighthold (and I don't disagree that the Nightborne's closer connection to the playable races is what mostly validated their greater importance).

However, rather than Ulduar the Nighthold reminds me of the Bastion of Twilight at the end of the 4.0, where we dealt with Cho'gall as much as we'll deal with Gul'dan.

[Irian]

Blood elves are descendants of the Highborne and their strongest still-living ancestors, so uh...saying they're a Highborne thing is basically saying they're a blood elf thing by extension.

This is a huge multi-paragraph post about semantics.

[Beloren]

As long as the expansion remains, nightborne will be about blood elves and night elves because it has to be 2 factions doing the quests

[ravenmoon]

What are you talking about?
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.

I was expanding on what I said, not having a go at you.

[Aeula]

I don't know... I think their night elvishness definitely puts them into the night elf category.

But seriously, they're their own thing. There's a mix of night elf, highborne and blood elf in their story.

[Deleted]

Nightborne are Highborne thing, not night elf or Blood elf.

The introduction of the nightborne has obviously caused quite a buzz about the elven community... lots of talk about the blood elves getting a new addition, a handful of people feeling it's a night elven addition, a lot also thinking it's a completely new group/thing set up to be a 3rd elven main race.

Whiles we cannot deny there is a similarity to the blood elves who share a lot in common with the nightborne, and while we cannot deny that pretty much everything about the nightborne is night elven in origin very few have realized the overwhelming HIGHBORNE connection that speaks louder than every other vein. The night elf highborne.

Looking closely at the nightborne - it is without a doubt the arcane night elf group the Highborne that has been expanded. Whiles you could argue about the technicality of highborne being night elf, or being high elf since high elves came from that... the very high arcane night elven nature of the nightborne has HIGHBORNE screaming out very loudly emphatically the the nocturnal group, not the diurnal group - making it primarily night elf concerned rather than a high/blood elf thing (and that's not invalidating their is connection). Highborne never refer to themselves as night elves even though they have the night elf appearance, and nightborne is a lot closer to highborne than it is high elf/night elf - to me this all indicates that they are development of the highborne into a serious thing in the night elf category. It's own separate group.

There is a reason you've never felt the nightborne don't quite fit the night elf thing, that's because they're based on the Highborne group, the arcane night elf group you've really onlly had glimpses of in ruins with the Shen'dralar and not had a proper look till now. There is no longer any doubt in my mind, this is a highborne thing. And being highborne while a night elf thing it provides a bridge and strong connection to the high/blood elves.

Even the music of the zone/themes are shared with Azsuna strongly -could we dare to conclude, that blizzard is making in the nightborne the highborne into a race of it's own?

It seems clear to me that the nightborne are blizzard greatly expanding primarily the Highborne, and secondarily the night elf

With all due respect, I have to disagree. While both groups are related (it's even in the name, so it's obvious), I can't say I share the view Nightborne are Highborne first, night elves second. It's the other way around. It's what we're being shown, what Blizzard says in interviews and promotional materials, what we experience. Their night elveness is undeniable. Also, it's important to note that it's unlikely that the entire population of Suramar was made up of Highborne prior to the creation of the shield. While there are indeed many nobles (we see multiple houses of them like Stravar or Duskmere), there should be many commoners among them.

Also, I'm not sure why you even mention High Elves in this context. Perhaps you're confused? It's high elves (used in a descriptive manner) that are related to the Highborne. Not in the context of races (High Elves). Also, the similarities between diurnal Blood/High Elves and Nightborne exists only on the surface. When you look deeper you see more and more differences. For example, Elissande allied with the Legion for the good of her people. Also, Elissande and other Nightborne Legion followers rule from the city while the rebellion operates outside of it, while in case of the Blood Elves, Kael and his Legion sycophants attacked the city held by his opposition.

Back to the topic at hand, Highborne aren't closer in appearance to the Nightborne than Night Elves. They are paler than Night Elves. So it's clear that Night Elves are in a deeper state of night than Highborne, while Nightborne are in an even deeper state still. And I'd say the fit quite well with the Night Elves. Sure, they are focused on magic, but that's exactly what the Night Elves need, responsible users of the Arcane. Other than that, they are clearly nocturnal in design and presentation, Tyrande treats them in a motherly way in 7.1 and they are what remains of the Night Elf empire. Also, Nightborne and Night Elves know each other on a personal basis.

Also, I'm not sure who is saying that Nightborne is set up to be a third main race of elves, but they are simply stated, wrong.

[Deleted]

I'll stop you right there. Stop trying to divorce the highborne from the night elves, there is no nightborne/highborne lore without night elf - it's another vein of the night elves, the arcane vein.. just because it's not nature doesn't mean it's not night elven. Night elves do not have to be restricted to nature only. THe highborne are their arcane side. This is what is being developed clearly. It's got nothing to do with blood elves, nor the nature group which is why Tyrande doesn't feature till 7.1, it's a highborne NIGHT ELF thing. Stop trying to divorce nightborne from night elves.

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the nigh elf highborne = nightborne see, it's even in the name

I can't agree more.

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No amount of wishing will make them night elves because they are not, they're highborne. Night elf has clearly become a nature thing, whiles highborne is the arcane thing and thus nightborne is a highborne development - that will always be linked to night elves but will not be the same thing. Even if they join forces, the nightborne will be like a different race or a sub-race next tot hem - because the highborne night elves of Suramar have new bodies, they will always be a different group. You have two nightbased elf groups now. You can view them as a sub-race or a full race - but they are now a different race

You're conflating the Darnassus group with all night elves. Highborne are still Night Elves after all. They alone prove you wrong on Night Elves becoming only a nature thing. And just like the name Nightborne shows a connection with Highborne, so does it show a connection with the Night Elves. Nightborne Elves. Night Elves. It's obvious, really.

[Alanar]

What is it with you and elves with these debate threads? or is it just the orc avatar is just showing up non stop?


edit:

This thread doesn't seem very different in theme from the other i.e. the Night Elf/Highborne divide. I am merging this thread into the other one to consolidate the conversation.

I see now.

[Deleted]

The problem is that the Highborne make no sense at all.
It's just a forced plot to allow Night Elves to become mages.
Let us not forget that using arcane was punishable by death!
The only reason Quel'dorei were exiled was because so many people rebelled against that law, the Night Elves didn't want to kill that many people.

Fast-forward to Cataclysm we have the Nightborne, elves that use arcane magic.
And they have two options:
1. Join the people where arcane magic is a capital offense.
2. Join the people that embrace the use of arcane magic.
For game-mechanic reasons they decided to join group 1.
It backfired, they weren't really accepted and Maiev even started to kill a lot of them.

And now in Legion we have Night Elf Mages trying to become exalted with the Wardens fcs.
Or Night Elves farming to exalted with people that they think should receive the death penalty.

While I disagree with mister Mace on his points about Nightborne here, he had a point about this:

And like I told Friendly about blood elves, I'll repeat here. i mean this in the nicest possible way, but. Night elves don't belong to you, they're blizzards to do as and how they please. If blizzard want to make nightborne or highborne into it's own unique group independent of the night elves, they can. You already have that they are a night group, based off the night elves and not the blood elves.

Just replace Night Elves with Highborne. Blizzard used them as they saw fit, it's as simple as that.

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See Raven, i'm not saying they're not night elven based or related, but they're not night elven. They've made night elf now a nature thing. The arcane side of the night elves is now highborne/nightborne - it's own thing.

How can they be night elven based yet not night elven? They are elves of the night, are they not? As such they are night elves.

[Combatbutler]

While I disagree with mister Mace on his points about Nightborne here, he had a point about this:


Just replace Night Elves with Highborne. Blizzard used them as they saw fit, it's as simple as that.

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How can they be night elven based yet not night elven? They are elves of the night, are they not? As such they are night elves.

Stop creating new accs for this raven!!!!!!

[Deleted]

indeed, they're essentially a new night elf race, an alternative night elf - or night elf in a mutated state - we don't even know if the look isn't even reversible .. in time. We're so obssesed with semantics

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imho, I doubt it. I'd be pissed if blizzard made them horde or blood elven. This is the first really nice night elf addition since the groups introduction - and yeah, when you are talking wotA, highborne, Suramar, you're talking night elves, not blood elves even though blood elves came from them.

Blood elves have been the more impressive, better built, better attended group in wow, Night elves have really looked the neglected half of the elven scale, the nightborne bring them close to parity - you think better of the night elves for the addition of the nightborne.. and night elves have really needed some freshness since WC3 - it's high time Thalyssra took centre stage over Tyrande as they've simply messed Tyrande up, she was so silent in the the wow storyline till that MoP thing, and when we see her she's emo over Malfurion (understably) and then really petty or harsh to Thalyssra who all of us commend as being quite the person we'd expect Tyrande to be. It's new life into a stale night elf group, if they take all that and make it blood elven - you're leaving the night elves even shorter.

Take the nightborne from the night elves, and they're looking even more pathetic and terrible than before, keep the nightborne night elf related and linked, and the night elves feel more like a proper group/alternative to the blood elves.

I think it's unfair to call them a mutated state. They are in a deeper state of night. I'm not sure why that should even be reversed. Gotta agree on the second part too. I've been disappointed with night elves for a while now and Nightborne are exactly what they needed. A responsible arcane based group. And some people are somehow not OK with that? Even want them to be blood elven even though Blood Elves are diurnal? I think they are jealous.

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The Nightborne call themselves Shal'dorei and, much like the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei, they mutated to a different kind of elf. That's what matters at the end, what each group calls themselves in canon.

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Not close the true. Both Nightborne and High Elves are arcane mutations of the noble Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't evolution of the High Elves, they are just a political split.

But the Nightborne also still consider themselves Night Elves. And rightfully so, they are both elves of the night. How is that not clear?

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cheers, you know I didn't mean it like that, and I did read everything. Night elves receive a lot of bashing on this forum - and when you of all people say things like that, you're fuelling a fire the haters will all too gladly add to their arsenal - the troll, the forsaken lock and the blood elf in particular.

I don't know who these people are since I've been only lurking here so far and as such haven't paid much attention to names (though I did notice the anti-Night Elf sentiment you mentioned), but if these people are creating trouble like you say, you should talk to a moderator about their behavior.

[Deleted]

So, we should drop the "night elf" categorization and call them "trolls"? I 100% agree.

This is just silly. Chronicles says the Dark Trolls evolved into Elves. They are also clearly different. The lost their tusks, they gained more fingers. They are very different races.

[Raetary]

But the Nightborne also still consider themselves Night Elves. And rightfully so, they are both elves of the night. How is that not clear?

holy mother of all good, ravenmoon corrupted your innocent mind with his "night elvenness"

[Deleted]

But the Blood Elves are actually Highborne too, so replacing it with Night Elves is just wrong.
Basically: Highborne is a rank, this can apply to many Elf-groups.
Kaldorei is the race, which is basically everything in Kalimdor.

But they abandoned everything that tied them to their past lives. They stopped worshiping Elune, they replaced nocturnal theme with diurnal one, etc. They are highborne only in a descriptive sense now.

Because Night Elf is often used to describe Elves from Darnassus, even though Kaldorei is basically the word for all those races in Kalimdor.

I am aware of that, but I was talking about night elves, not Night Elves. To me, it's clear Nightborne are still night elves. With strong connection in theme to the Highborne, but night elves nonetheless.