Nightborne are clearly a Highborne thing

[ravenmoon]

All elves are originally night elves. Their alterations in appearance have been influenced by Warcraft's edition of Darwin's theory of evolution.

They are a newly discovered offshoot of former night elves, basically.

pretty much. We get off shoots every expansion, this parritcular one is obviously tied to the night elf, i.e night elf based, it's night elf empire based, highborne based, i.e. arcane night elf, and they've just had their bodies changed.. they're not ever a descended group, it's literally the same people that have changed a bit, more night elf than than the night elves who I remember someone saying should be called the Star elves, whiles these we should call night elves.

but it's just semantics. When I say night elf, I now think of Kaldorei and Shal'dorei and if context is not provided, I may ask which one? kaldorei or shaldorei.

[Frontenac]

All elves are originally night elves. Their alterations in appearance have been influenced by Warcraft's edition of Darwin's theory of evolution.

They are a newly discovered offshoot of former night elves, basically.

I don't believe the magically induced transformations (all by magic wells : Well of Eternity, Sunwell, Nightwell) follow the darwinian principle of natural selection.

[Rhlor]

shaldorei are a new kind of elves, they are not same that shendrelar.

shendrelar=highborne

shaldorei=shaldorei

[Deleted]

Nothing is proven even in the hall of lightning NE and trolls share different ''build''

Oh, I actually thought that was canon, but I looked it up now and it really is just a theory. Today I learned.

[ravenmoon]

shaldorei are a new kind of elves, they are not same that shendrelar.

shendrelar=highborne

shaldorei=shaldorei

yes hun, a new kind of night elf.

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And if you did not pay attention or played WC3 xpac, they sided with horde because of a dumbass alliance human general was using blood elves as cannon fodder, sending them on perilous mission for a certain death and even calling them a lesser race.

Well they sided with the horde because blizzard needed more players to pick horde. And ran with the blood elves instead of the high elves because in TFT they had written the blood elves a bit more edgy and it was a better fit than the high elf.

Garithos, Kael'thas, Arthas etc were all elements in the lore used to explain why. The community latches on to Garithos, but if I recall correctly the blood elf decision was primarilyi because Kael'thas ordered it, Rommath goes to Silvermoon to ensure it happens - Kael'thas doesn't care about the horde, he is using them to ensure the blood elves can get safe passage to Outland to join him and Illidan, (later him and the Legion). The night elves are another factor as well, the blood elven leader has just run of with Illidan.. a demon they consider betrayer, this hearkens back to the highborne and the legion and immediately they start "warning" the alliance 'oh oh, we've seen this behaviour from this same group before' - the signs are all there, obsessed with power now, no care of consequences - i.e. reckless" - and the blood elves were at that time, hot with grief after the massacre what separates blood elf from high elf is that high elf behaved in high elf manner, taking the high road, blood elves were like fack it, 'everyone's gonna pay' -- 'we've been holding back, cautious with magic, protecting some ideal on the sanctity of life or bull and look at what it got us! where was the light who's ideals we were faithful to?! it served to do nothing but destroy so' 'screw that s*** (referring to the way they use to be), it's useless waste of time - it's weak, " and regarding fel magic "if it helps us survive, make them pay, helps with the hunger, then we don't care.. why hold back from that and continue to hunger like this?" - and ofc, this is horrific to a person in the high elf mindset , the night elf, and the humans etc who've just been fighting demons too.

The horde who's got even darker stuff in it feels more relatable at this point. not that Kael'thas cares, but it would serve the purpose - a means to an end.

Truth is it's not that the alliance had given up on them or because of Garithos, or because of the blood elves "snapping" from the tragedy - it's a combination of all.. the blood elves changed from the story - and in writing up that group (remember blizzard is using the blood elf instead of the high elf - I learnt that originally high elf and goblin were going to be the new races, and may have been if Northrend came first or they added new races much sooner, WoW wasn't finished on release, and part of the issue is on release wow boomed far beyond wildest expectations - most of the first few months was coping with the huge masses that were playing the game, revising their estimations, new planning, it was a different ball game to deal with such huge numbers .. it changed the direction of development, and the intensity to which it was approached. The first expansion became far more important - as now they were that big, they wanted to build on it. This also meant addressing the faction balance a key part of the gameplay experience especially with pvp - in the days before cross realm,

So the story adapted to fit the games needs. I think in hindsight, if i was in charge of the project, I'd have put the night elves in the horde at the start. They would have balanced the population much better. This would have meant high elves gone to the alliance, and we'd have had a different Draenei story.. perhaps we'd have had ogres in the horde at that point in time. Things may have gone very differently.

Those are my thoughts on the whole affair.

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How is it any worse than WoD? Yes there's a lot of elf stuff, but I'd say there's more variety of elf stuff than there was a variety of orc stuff in WoD, at least from the point of view of an alliance character. And there's also plenty of non elven stuff.

The tauren get a whole zone.
Blue dragonflight lore.
Kirin Tor/Dalaran stuff.
Vry'kul/itatan construct stuff also fills a whole zone.
The druid stuff, while heavily night elf, isn't entirely night elves either as there are other druid races such as green dragons, Cenarius and other playable druid races.
Artifacts and class hall stories give closure to a good deal of lingering plot threads as well as giving some cool characters a few minutes in the spotlight.
A continuation of the Forsaken and Gilneas plots, which is likely to continue in patches.
The Draenei/Velen stuff which is also likely to be followed up on in patches as well as the army of the light stuff being brought in with Turalyon and the holy dreadlord whose name I forget off hand.

Yes, three of the five zones have heavy elf influences, but they also show different aspects of elven culture, unlike WoD where the clans just kind of melded together for me. "This clan uses void stuff, this clan is jungle crazy, this clan has paler skin.' We get to see glimpses of the highbourne, druids, their military from the WoA, the wardens etc. To me at least it feels like there's more variety than in the WoD orcs.

Sure the demon hunters are an elf focused group due to only being night/blood elves but really their whole identity is less about being an elnd more about their methods and drive to end the legion. The fact that only elves can be demon hunters doesn't really affect things much, if you swapped blood elves and night elves with dwarves and tauren it wouldn't really affect them very much. And the Illidari as a whole, while lead by a DH player charcter and illidan in general (though he's not there to do so at the moment), are not en antirely elf group either, consisting of naga, demon and broken forces as well.

And even then, just as it made sense to have a lot of orc stuff in draenor, this location also lends itself to ancient night elf lore. Is there a bit too much old night elf stuff going on? Maybe so, but considering they scrapped a patch zone that was going to be more night elf ruins for something cooler, I don't think the entire expansion will be just about elves either.

As for the Legion being underplayed, I agree it is a bit odd we don't see MORE of them, but they probably want to avoid 'demon fatigue' like how there was some orc fatigue people had in WoD and they even redid some places like Gorgrond and changing the end raid to compensate. But keep in mind that the main antagonist in Stormheim is working for the legion and we see demons towards the end of that storyline, the demon has a strong presence in Azsuna, the legion is secretly behind some bad stuff going on in Highmountain (though I forget if it was tied to the main bad guy we kill in the dungeon or not), it was because of Gul'dan that black rook hold went all undead, and that the legion is behind everything going bad in Suramar and demons even walk the streets there. They definitely have a strong presence even if they're not everywhere across the isles. Though it is possible they'll get usurped by N'zoth or something in the last patch similar to the Legion usurping the warlords in WoD, but we'll have to wait and see on that.

you tell em sister, there is also the point that this is the first night elf focused expansion or focused on anything since WoW begun - the race has been sidelined while we've had humans, orcs, blood elves, draenei, trolls, forsaken, worgen, goblin, Tauren and Pandas all take centre stage in expansions and major patch cycles or in the case of Tauren have visible racial developments in the Taunka, Yaungol and now Highmountain.

This is the first time we've had night elves focused on in WoW, it is also the first time they've been expanded. No wonder people have problems reconciling the nightborne as having anything to do with the night elves despite the clarity of the connection - it's just so unusual to a person who's only ever seen night elves in wow in relation to druidsm. You may have read about the arcane civilization, but all you've seen in is druidsm (not even the moon priestess bits of them have had centre stage), and now they give you all these other aspects, but slight changes to the night elf to give the nightborne has some failing to make the connection.

However, I don't think the Legion are underplayed at all. We're just heavily focusing on Suramar, because we like Elven lore, they are ALL OVER, everything we're doing is tied to them, we've had invasions, broken shore scenario, our faction leaders wiped out, our armies humiliated, now we turn to a desperate last gasp strategy.

Every zone has their influence in them, but the elven ones of Azsuna and Suramar have the strongest and this intensifies in 7.1 - the legion is why we're helping out the nightborne - not out of charity - the broken isle night elves seem to be the ones genuinely interested in helping their kin, but if we don't stop Gul'dan in the nighthold the world is doomed - so you bet we're in.

The Legion has already used its influences and forces to nearly wipe out the Moonguard, the Wardens, has a tight fist on the nightborne under Elisande it is using - which is what our focus on Suramar is, and this continues in 7.1 where we gain many more nightborne to the cause - successful insurrection indeed [you can imagine how Tyrande feels, this happened in WotA , over the same Elven cities, it's like the horrible nightmare with so much grief attached to it, being replayed again - except ofc, she isn't helpless to stop it] They very nearly succeeded in the nightmare and we have enough WQs to keep the legion at the forefront.

Still I'm very glad it is not an all consuming reminder, i'm glad taht they didn't pucker the broken isles with a lot more legion invasion stuff, Thal'dranath is enough, the legion is advancing, but it hasn't consumed everything yet as Gul'dan is initiating the most important phase and his army is under no threat from the world during this lull

[Combatbutler]

yes hun, a new kind of night elf.

With whom they have the closest ties in terms of culture is actually quite irrelevant, since every last elven offshoot has the same roots in terms culture.The ones who are the closest to the ancient night elf empire and basically its successor state are not even elves anymore, but rather Naga. The Shal'dorei are simply new elven offshoot nothing more nothing less.

[Rhlor]

With whom they have the closest ties in terms of culture is actually quite irrelevant, since every last elven offshoot has the same roots in terms culture.The ones who are the closest to the ancient night elf empire and basically its successor state are not even elves anymore, but rather Naga. The Shal'dorei are simply new elven offshoot nothing more nothing less.

the night elves are elves remained unchanged like valshara or the moonguard.

shal'dorei became a new elf-kind.

say that because some of them lived in the time of ancient kaldorei empire that makes them night elves, that's not true. Dath'Remar was a night elf but change still high elf.

which at first it was a thing does not mean they can not change and be different. Azshara was queen of the night elves and now she is a naga

[Zulkhan]

The use (and abuse) of the arcane is really the only cultural trait the Nightborne have with the High/Blood Elves. When you look at the other aspects (art, architecture, the focus on the night, moon, etc.), they look more night elven, in my opinion.

The usage/abuse of the arcane remains the most prominent aspect nonetheless, is what truly defines the Nightborne as much as it defines the Blood Elves, opposed to Night Elves where their connection to nature is what most characterize them nowdays.

All elves are originally night elves. Their alterations in appearance have been influenced by Warcraft's edition of Darwin's theory of evolution.

They are a newly discovered offshoot of former night elves, basically.

The concept of "evolution" is barely existent in the Warcraft universe. All these alterations were caused by the arcane and can be better defined as "mutations" rather than evolution.

[ravenmoon]

the night elves are elves remained unchanged like valshara or the moonguard.

shal'dorei became a new elf-kind.

say that because some of them lived in the time of ancient kaldorei empire that makes them night elves, that's not true. Dath'Remar was a night elf but change still high elf.

which at first it was a thing does not mean they can not change and be different. Azshara was queen of the night elves and now she is a naga

the shal'dorei also became a new night elf-kind. The Shal'dorei are not cultural nor physical out of the night elf bracket - you have to see that. Yes they are not the same race as the kaldorei - but they are still night elf empire/culture/habitually based. This also makes them a new night elf race. They are not day elves, they are not new order of Elf or culture of elf. They are still tied to the night elf empire culture ways.

Do you not noticed that is not the culture of the high/blood elves, nor are they physically of the night either, so while the high elf became a new kind of elf, it wasn't a new kind of night elf, but it was still elven. Unlike the naga who also changed both physically and culturally. There change was as radical as the night elf change from dark troll, and they've a very dark and twisted culture that is different to the pre-sundering empire.

I view it as the kaldorei simply gained new culture with Malfurion, while the old one continued with the shen'dralar and the nightborne. Because the nightborne are slightly different physically, this makes them a new kind of night elf. It is also a new kind of elf, and a new race. I repeat, it is also a new kind of elf, and a new race, but not a completely different race. You are not wrong in saying it's a new elven race, you're not wrong in saying Shal'dorei aren't shen'dralar either, but it is also clear that it is a new kind of night elf. The night elf group is no longer just one race of kal'dorei. It contains kaldorei and shal'dorei now. This is not unusual either. Races gain new groups with variations. We've seen blood elf variations in the Darkfallen, the wretched and the fel elves, and some regard all of that including the blood elf itself as a variation of the high elf.

We see the orcs have several variations too, from fel-orc, dragonmaw, green orc, mag'har orc, black rock - every green orc was transformed by FEl magic, not into a different race, but it is new with green skin in one instance and the other with red skin. what caused the variation between the Mag'har and black rock isn't revealed but there are differences and then we have the half-orc, mok'nathal. Every race has something, a form of variation and a degree of it. You can classify Taunka as a new race of Tauren, and a new race too. but a new race of Tauren. You can apply the same terminology to high elf, and while it is not a night elf because it isn't night based.. if the high elf was night based, we'd say it's also a different type of night elf, but it isn't. It's not as much because it's culturally changed as much as it's no longer night based and not kal'dorei linked. The blood elves do not live in a night elf city, they are not the same night elf people changed. The nightborne however are.

[Mehrunes]

I mean the props you see in Suramar.

In which case, which of these props do we see among the Night Elves?

[ravenmoon]

The usage/abuse of the arcane remains the most prominent aspect nonetheless, is what truly defines the Nightborne as much as it defines the Blood Elves, opposed to Night Elves where their connection to nature is what most characterize them nowdays.

the same with the highborne. Count the shen'dralar in that bucket too.

The concept of "evolution" is barely existent in the Warcraft universe. All these alterations were caused by the arcane and can be better defined as "mutations" rather than evolution.

agreed - there isn't even a fixed definition... magic changes things, time changes things, environment changes things, sometimes the change is just a variation (like dark iron to bronzebeard or Zandalari to gurubashi, Yaungol to Tauren, draenei to eredar) other times it's a complete remake (dark troll to night elf or night elf to naga) one thing went in, and something totally different came out. Other times iti's inbetween .. like going from stone to flesh (earthen to dwarf, or vrykul to human, mecha-gnome to gnome)

when it's negative or not initially desirable, mutation is term that is used, like the "curse" of the nightwell. Devolution is sometimes use like Draenei to Broken, or night elf to high elf which can also be viewed as evolution.

Evolution is in local language, it's no longer just a scientific term, and it is often used to simply mean change, mutation or transformation - all those words are interchangeable, and the terminology does not determine the case, but the context in which it happens. For example in dark trolls going to night elves - you will hear the terms evolution, change, transformation or mutation used by various people, the degree of change is given by the context in the story, in this case it's a complete transformation, change of species - a significant change, we can't use any of those 4 terms to discern the degree of change, the context provides that.

And sometimes it's not just the physical context, there is also cultural, generations involved, habits. The nightborne varied only slightly from their original night elf form, and kept living in the exact night elven empire culture and way of life - variation. That the kaldorei or northern kalimdor changed to a nature based culture rather than arcane is indicative of not a totally new species or group, but just an alternative. Hey we're going green now. but some of our other friends did not, now some of them have physically changed by sticking with that magic, they haven't grown new appendages, tentales or visages - there faces haven't changed, they haven't experienced MORPHOLOGICAL change, their skin darkened, they got skinnier, the tips of their ears curled up - that's it rest the same, lifespan, height, mannerisms etc. And it's the same people, not several generations of complete overhaul. That's variation, that's a new race of night elf to me.

Compare that to slightly further degree of change, where several generations have passed, skin went pale, hair colour had different variations, culture changed, ear incline changed, eye colour changed, habits and patterns changed from night culture to day based one. Morphology remained the same, but they were no longer night based, they were no longer dark, and they were no longer night elf empire structured though their new system was based off that. Now this is enough for a new race of elves, but not of night elf, as they're no longer night. There lifespan is also shorter, their height is shorter.

you can have a race have several distinct and different cultures, and in wow also have some variations, you can draw the line in different places, in the Elf line, the high/blood elves are in with the night elves and highborne/nightborne, in the day/night line, former/descendant line the high/blood elves are in one category with their offshoots like fel elves and dark fallen, whereas the night elves, highborne/nightborne are in another.

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In which case, which of these props do we see among the Night Elves?

which night elves? the cenarion ones? the darnassus ones? the shen'dralar highborne ones? the nightborne ones? the moonguard ones? the court of farondis ones? the Azsuna ones? the Ravencrest ones?

[Zulkhan]

the same with the highborne. Count the shen'dralar in that bucket too.

They count in a way, but they don't really represent the modern Night Elf society at all. They shifted from a bunch of renegades to a bunch of barely tolerated allies, but the core of Night Elf society isn't them, their beliefs or culture. On the other hand, Quel'Thalas and its society was built around magic and the Sunwell, which is not very much different from how Nightborne built their own around the Nightwell and highly advanced techniches of arcane manipulation.

[Beloren]

This argument is useless, it's obvious nightborne are a new night elf thing. It's a night elf expansion, also in one of the three night elf zones. Ofc they are going to be different from your regular night elf, or they wouldn't be new. And blizzard already show you what branch of night elf they are connected too, the Highborne magic branch (catch the pun)

They get healed by freakin TREE, they are even darker skinned, more night based and love the stars. Blizzard couldn't make it more clear if they tried. They are obviously doing something new and different with the night elves in the nightborne. No doubt. What I'm concerned with is whether they are going to be a threat to the blood elves by siding with the alliance night elves after this.

The blood elves should do everything to learn as many of their secrets and power just in case.

[Zulkhan]

This argument is useless, it's obvious nightborne are a new night elf thing. It's a night elf expansion, also in one of the three night elf zones. Ofc they are going to be different from your regular night elf, or they wouldn't be new. And blizzard already show you what branch of night elf they are connected too, the Highborne magic branch (catch the pun)

They get healed by freakin TREE, they are even darker skinned, more night based and love the stars. Blizzard couldn't make it more clear if they tried. They are obviously doing something new and different with the night elves in the nightborne. No doubt. What I'm concerned with is whether they are going to be a threat to the blood elves by siding with the alliance night elves after this.

The blood elves should do everything to learn as many of their secrets and power just in case.

None of this changes what was said until now. Nightborne aren't more related to Night Elves than they are to Blood Elves at this point. And there's no justifiable reason for why they would side with Night Elves rather than Blood Elves. Elisande's speech equally disregards the rest of elven kind which speaks volume on how non-Nightborne elves are viewed from their perspective.

[themaelstorm]

I don't know what we are discussing here really.
Is the question which elf group Nightborne are closest to? In that case, they are definitely closest to Highborne. I don't see how this can even be debated.
If their "race" is under question, they are no longer night elves as high elves were no more.

Have you guys even watched the cinematic where Thalyssra speaks about nightborne?
She clearly states Azshara was their queen. She clearly states they changed.
Have you read the quest texts from Farondis chains?
How much druidism have you spotted among the nightborne?

Seriously, what are we discussing?

Not close the true. Both Nightborne and High Elves are arcane mutations of the noble Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't evolution of the High Elves, they are just a political split.

Not really true. Blood Elves have been tainted by Fel. Not to say they changed as much as high elves/nightborne from night elves, but it's still more than just political split. It started as such, but it's hard to know the exact effects of using fel first and draining a naaru later.
It's likely that these changes are being reverted after the purification, but who knows?

the nigh elf highborne = nightborne see, it's even in the name

Actually, I believe it comes from the fact that they had to live for ages without the moon or sunlight, ie they were borne under the darkness, the night.

[ravenmoon]

They count in a way, but they don't really represent the modern Night Elf society at all. They shifted from a bunch of renegades to a bunch of barely tolerated allies, but the core of Night Elf society isn't them, their beliefs or culture. On the other hand, Quel'Thalas and its society was built around magic and the Sunwell, which is not very much different from how Nightborne built their own around the Nightwell and highly advanced techniches of arcane manipulation.

Except the nightborne didn't use the nightwell to build the Suramar. These night elves used Ancient Druids and the Well of Eternity arcane magic to build those cities. They use the nightwell to save and preserve the city though.

my point being, you can't really separate nightborne elf from night elf as something not related or totally different (no longer accusing you of that, just restating for the benefit of others). As every night elf city was built around magic - nature and arcane according to WotA. And yes, the Quel'thalas kingdom is not very much different from how the nightborne/night elves built there stuff, which is nice, it shows you that the Elves are connected. A player who never read the books and had no clue about the highborne or the way night elves use to live will now see the connection in Suramar without having to ever read the lore books. They will see dark skinned, night based elves that are night elves who've been darkened by the Nightwell and cursed in a very advanced city that is reminiscent of Silvermoon, not becaue they are similar, but because it is high living - while you're normally use to seeing night elves in ruins or in trees and barrow-dens now you're seeing them in an advanced city.

AS a blood elf you should feel a connection to your night elf heritage - you won't identify with the kaldorei in the alliance because that is the group that exiled you, but you will identify with the highborne and the nightborne - even if you end up on opposite sides, in the case of the broken isle night elves it won't be personal if that's the outcome, just the nature of the sides. You won't be attacking them like you would be Tyrande's group who have been easy pickings so far. But while a few dozen shen'dralar where easily manageable, the potential in a city full of nightborne would make your enemies far more challenging than previously if they allied - I'm projecting here.

Too long have people failed to see the closeness of connection between high elf and night elf, they wrongly view them as different species, maybe i feel differently because I actually followed the story and high elves to me seem more like white people compared to night/borne elves brown/blacks people. According to the books the scope of the night elven cities are unmached by today, so blizzard had to come up with something that was both different, yet bearing similarities and grander than Silvermoon. They hit the nail on the head. Some people don't think Suarmar is more beautiful than Silvermoon, but it is easily bigger, grander.

Now you would understand that the high elves are highborne descendants.. this is what they managed to do with a far less powerful well of power - something that was approahcing the grandness of Suramar - they clearly built a better society by all accounts and made more of what they had than their darker counterparts in the time frame.

THis shows you that while shorter lived and not having as much power, the high/blood elves are just as good as the nightborne/highborne and what they lack in knowledge, their cunning makes up for it at the expense of the over-confidence of the nightborne/highborne who view the high elves and the night elves as lesser - until they ran into trouble, and we now have the nightborne under Thalyssra and the Highborne under Mordant Evenshade who have gained some measure of humility, while the ones under naga highborne under Azshara and the nightborne under Elisande still haven't - but we're in the process of teaching.

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None of this changes what was said until now. Nightborne aren't more related to Night Elves than they are to Blood Elves at this point. And there's no justifiable reason for why they would side with Night Elves rather than Blood Elves. Elisande's speech equally disregards the rest of elven kind which speaks volume on how non-Nightborne elves are viewed from their perspective.

i wouldn't use the term related, because they are actually related - they come from the same city - they share the same past, the same age, and know the culture equally well cos while the alliance kaldorei no longer follow that culture, they did, the same individuals remember. They would have family relatives, old friends, acquaintances, colleagues, rivals amongst each other , not to mention other similarities like night based, star loving/fascinated etc - and while kaldorei night elves have switched culture, highborne night elves have not which I guess was Maces point I perhaps over-reacted too.

it's more like similar for lack of a better word. Nightborne are culturally more similar to blood elves than they are to night elves, however they are identical to highborne night elves. And yes there is no currently predictable reason why they would side with night elves over blood elves or side with either elven group. We know Elisande wouldn't ofc, but Thalyssra might. It can go either way, or neither or both - entirely up to how blizzard wants to write it.

See we agree on much more than we do not. My hope is that they would side with the night elves , but if they don't I'd like to have them playable so i can go full nightborne. I think without the nightborne the night elves go back to dull an uninteresting, boring and monotone. There is a spark to the group with the nightborne around which will go if they completely separate them. but that's jsut my opinion.

[Combatbutler]

Some people don't think Suarmar is more beautiful than Silvermoon, but it is easily bigger, grander.

Ingame maybe, Lorewise on the other hand it is uncertain. The Suramar of today is a portion of the original city, parts of it were sacked entirely during the war of the ancients. Silvermoon was the metropolis of a thriving Kingdom with a steadily growing population for ca 7.000 years, while the population growth of the nighborne was stunted by the mere fact that they can only supply a set amount of people with their arcwine. Silvermoon should still be massive, even with half the city being abandoned.

[Mehrunes]

which night elves? the cenarion ones? the darnassus ones? the shen'dralar highborne ones? the nightborne ones? the moonguard ones? the court of farondis ones? the Azsuna ones? the Ravencrest ones?

Nightborne aren't Night Elves. But even if they were, the context was Nightborne sharing art in form of city props with Night Elves and as such them sharing said props with themselves makes no sense.

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne aren't Night Elves. But even if they were, the context was Nightborne sharing art in form of city props with Night Elves and as such them sharing said props with themselves makes no sense.

city props? given that Suramar is a night elf city, doesn't that make the art night elven? Since when was architecture of any racial group only restricted to one type anyway? Mace may be right in that it is highborne, but that's still night elven, of the highborne variety. City props wise.

and in the context of being nocturnal, nightborne are night elves.

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Ingame maybe, Lorewise on the other hand it is uncertain. The Suramar of today is a portion of the original city, parts of it were sacked entirely during the war of the ancients. Silvermoon was the metropolis of a thriving Kingdom with a steadily growing population for ca 7.000 years, while the population growth of the nighborne was stunted by the mere fact that they can only supply a set amount of people with their arcwine. Silvermoon should still be massive, even with half the city being abandoned.

that's true, in-game scale is hard to match. we can assume some of the city sunk to the button of the ocean, i don't remember the original map having a lake. So I assume that the current Suramar is about half the old one or even as little as a third.

And yes, the high elves were the only elven group not in isolation - all credit to them - the others just literally hid.. all of them. Sure the night elves were claiming they were doing the world a service by holding vigil over mount hyjal and the secret at the top, but they never extended beyond the Ashenvale borders. Stonetalon being the extent to which they moved. they didn't shift from that area.

In classic wow, Feralas, Barrens and the rest of Kalimdor is like a discovery/re-discovery for them. Same with the highborne - who's fate is even worse when Totheldrin starts killing his Household, and ofc the nightborne, taking cover in their refuge/prison.

Tryande seems contemptuous of them hiding behind a shield, she shouldn't forget her people hid behind a forest for 10 k years and didn't lift a finger to rebuild ANYTHING - for 10k years, - i mean was that necessary to fulfil the vigil? I think not.

Night elves for all heir admirable qualities have been a wounded group for 10k years, and it got worse after the 3rd war with the draining of Teldrassil,

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Not really true. Blood Elves have been tainted by Fel. Not to say they changed as much as high elves/nightborne from night elves, but it's still more than just political split. It started as such, but it's hard to know the exact effects of using fel first and draining a naaru later.
It's likely that these changes are being reverted after the purification, but who knows?

Even inside the Blood Elven structure, there are those that were almost unaffected by the arcane withdraw, like the Farstriders. Now that I think of it, the Farstriders' eyes should be blue instead of green.


About the Nightborne architecture, Suramar is Highborne architecture and with the isolation and stagnation, it was pointless to rebuild the city. But that doesn't make the Nightborne the same as all Night Elves. Darnassian Night Elves have nothing in common with the Nightborne. Heck, to be straight to the point, Darnassian Night Elves barely have any connection with the Highborne empire.