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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, it's a hassle when I'm not given a choice in the matter. If you want to go through all the trouble to form your own groups, more power to you. But the moment I get told that my use of the matchmaker is what's ruining the game for everyone else, I call bullshit.

    Some people prefer matchmaking, and should be able to form group that way; WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

    Some people prefer making their own groups, and should be able to form them that way too. WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

    The problem here is trying to claim that one way is inherently better or worse than the other.
    There's no problem. Matchmaking is bad. There is no MMR or any other matchmaking toon, so you can't group players by "skill"
    So yes, pve matchmaking in wow is bad.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Sometimes there literally just aren't enough tanks at all, and you'll wait for hours and hours and hours until you have to go.
    I'm sorry, at this point you're just making up numbers. There is no point in current content will ever have a wait in the queue that long. MAYBE if you're queuing for something really obscure, like WotLK heroics or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
    I'm sorry...what? The matchmaking system that has worked perfectly fine for YEARS is suddenly a "problem" that needs to be addressed in order to fix a problem which is not created by it, and I'M the one making a mountain out of a molehill? Riiiiiiiiiiight.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Yes, matchmaking does indeed have the advantage of finding players for you whether they like you or not or whether you like them or not. It can certainly find you a group, but it gives no guarantee of the quality of that group at all. It cannot by its very nature.
    And who said anything about quality? The entire point of using matchmaking is to simply guarantee you a group while you go do other things. The moment you enter the queue you accept that the group will be random, both in terms of composition, gear, and skill. This is the drawback that a person accepts by using the LFD tool. Why is that even an arguing point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Slightly more? You have 100% full control. The system is a thin coat of paint over announcing in trade and whispering, as well as a button that allows you to /invite. That's it. The group creator is the group leader. He can kick anyone he wants, change anything he wants, create the group, disband the group, invite at his leisure, ask for armory profiles, vet members, and all the rest of it.
    And that's exactly the kind of autocratic power that Matchmaking provides protection from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Absolutely not wrong at all. Matchmaking can NEVER give you the control you need to create a group strong enough to take on challenging content.
    But it also does not stop players from using their own pre-made groups either. So why attempt to limit players from using LFD for any or all content if they are willing to accept the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Because you have no control over the group and because the content is hard, you'll find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place. One the one hand, the group sucks and can't do the content. On the other, the system has locked you into that group and will punish you for leaving. Consequently, there is no way you can clear the content. You can't alter the setup and you can't do the content with the setup.

    The most frustrating experience you can have in a game is when you're defeated through no fault of your own and there is absolutely nothing you can do or could have done about it - unless it's a game among friends who will be nice and no blame will be assigned and no names will be called, which LFD/LFR precisely is not.
    Except that the content is NOT LOCKED to LFD/LFR only, and you always have the option to use the pre-made tools to attack the content from another angle. Again, if you use the matchmaking system you've already accepted that you will be using random people, with random skill, and no guarantee of victory. Sometimes you gamble with this and lose. Sometimes you win. I have met some of the worst players imaginable using matchmaking, but I've also met some of the most patient, highly-geared, and highly-skilled players using it as well.

    Look, all I'm saying is that it's stupid to claim that only one system has all the answers. They clearly do not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    There's no problem. Matchmaking is bad. There is no MMR or any other matchmaking toon, so you can't group players by "skill"
    So yes, pve matchmaking in wow is bad.
    "Some people prefer matchmaking, and should be able to form group that way; WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails. "

    Did you just skip past that part or something?

    If you want more control over the skill level of your group, use the LFG tool! That's what it's there for! But if you don't care and just want convenience, then that's what Matchmaking is for. How is this not getting through to you?

  3. #243
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, it's a hassle when I'm not given a choice in the matter. If you want to go through all the trouble to form your own groups, more power to you. But the moment I get told that my use of the matchmaker is what's ruining the game for everyone else, I call bullshit.

    Some people prefer matchmaking, and should be able to form group that way; WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

    Some people prefer making their own groups, and should be able to form them that way too. WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

    The problem here is trying to claim that one way is inherently better or worse than the other.
    Thats a falacy. In theory it's true but in practice generates QQ and nerfing of content. Random matchmaking does not work for challenging content 99% of the time and players will complain that they had a frustrating experience. Thus in practice it is not feasible.

  4. #244
    Epic! Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Remove the rewards for using LFD/LFR (gold and runes) and I'm all for letting people queue for N+ raids and Mythics.

    As long as Blizzard also commits to not nerfing the content.

    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm sorry, at this point you're just making up numbers. There is no point in current content will ever have a wait in the queue that long. MAYBE if you're queuing for something really obscure, like WotLK heroics or something.



    I'm sorry...what? The matchmaking system that has worked perfectly fine for YEARS is suddenly a "problem" that needs to be addressed in order to fix a problem which is not created by it, and I'M the one making a mountain out of a molehill? Riiiiiiiiiiight.....




    And who said anything about quality? The entire point of using matchmaking is to simply guarantee you a group while you go do other things. The moment you enter the queue you accept that the group will be random, both in terms of composition, gear, and skill. This is the drawback that a person accepts by using the LFD tool. Why is that even an arguing point?



    And that's exactly the kind of autocratic power that Matchmaking provides protection from.



    But it also does not stop players from using their own pre-made groups either. So why attempt to limit players from using LFD for any or all content if they are willing to accept the consequences?



    Except that the content is NOT LOCKED to LFD/LFR only, and you always have the option to use the pre-made tools to attack the content from another angle. Again, if you use the matchmaking system you've already accepted that you will be using random people, with random skill, and no guarantee of victory. Sometimes you gamble with this and lose. Sometimes you win. I have met some of the worst players imaginable using matchmaking, but I've also met some of the most patient, highly-geared, and highly-skilled players using it as well.

    Look, all I'm saying is that it's stupid to claim that only one system has all the answers. They clearly do not.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "Some people prefer matchmaking, and should be able to form group that way; WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails. "

    Did you just skip past that part or something?

    If you want more control over the skill level of your group, use the LFG tool! That's what it's there for! But if you don't care and just want convenience, then that's what Matchmaking is for. How is this not getting through to you?
    Pay attention to the thread. Content will get nerfed because the success rates would be abysmal.
    Matchmaking and hard content go together like toothpaste and orange juice.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Pay attention to the thread. Content will get nerfed because the success rates would be abysmal.
    Matchmaking and hard content go together like toothpaste and orange juice.
    Unless Blizzard doesn't nerf the content and instead puts up a bigass sign pointing to the LFG tool. FFS....

    The entire "problem" is created not by the Matchmaking system, but by Blizzard caving. Besides which, the game has never had Mythic+ before. Even if they put Mtyhic 0 in the matchmaking system and it got nerfed, the real rewards and skill come from Mythic+. Which, as I keep repeating, is a self-correcting barrier.

    Difficulty that scales with skill remains the sovereign domain of pre-made, organized groups because of the way Mythic+ works. Mythic 0 in matchmaking literally doesn't effect that at all, even if it gets nerfed into the ground.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Thats a falacy. In theory it's true but in practice generates QQ and nerfing of content. Random matchmaking does not work for challenging content 99% of the time and players will complain that they had a frustrating experience. Thus in practice it is not feasible.
    A frustrating experience is staring at the LFG tool instead of playing.

    A frustrating experience is not doing the content at all because it's not convenient to form groups for it.

    So rather than let people attempt the runs in matchmaking and see what happens(some people WILL succeed), Blizzard just removes the option to try? That's not solving anything, it's just sticking their heads in the sand.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Unless Blizzard doesn't nerf the content and instead puts up a bigass sign pointing to the LFG tool. FFS....

    The entire "problem" is created not by the Matchmaking system, but by Blizzard caving. Besides which, the game has never had Mythic+ before. Even if they put Mtyhic 0 in the matchmaking system and it got nerfed, the real rewards and skill come from Mythic+. Which, as I keep repeating, is a self-correcting barrier.

    Difficulty that scales with skill remains the sovereign domain of pre-made, organized groups because of the way Mythic+ works. Mythic 0 in matchmaking literally doesn't effect that at all, even if it gets nerfed into the ground.

    - - - Updated - - -



    A frustrating experience is staring at the LFG tool instead of playing.

    A frustrating experience is not doing the content at all because it's not convenient to form groups for it.

    So rather than let people attempt the runs in matchmaking and see what happens(some people WILL succeed), Blizzard just removes the option to try? That's not solving anything, it's just sticking their heads in the sand.
    But the issue is the matchmaking tool. Blizz wants harder content. Harder content can't exist in the matchmaking tool. Solution? Harder content outside the matchmaking tool.
    Mythic+0 "is a self-correcting barrier."
    You just got a case of the gimmies. Mythic+0 is tied to the entire Mythic+ system.

  8. #248
    I like to rub my cats wet nose all over my face

  9. #249
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post



    A frustrating experience is staring at the LFG tool instead of playing.

    A frustrating experience is not doing the content at all because it's not convenient to form groups for it.

    So rather than let people attempt the runs in matchmaking and see what happens(some people WILL succeed), Blizzard just removes the option to try? That's not solving anything, it's just sticking their heads in the sand.
    They did not remove the option. Create a group and accept the first 4 people that accept. Ta-da!

    You know it's funny because i think some people and you yourself i'm also suspecting have never actually tried to make a group. Because what you are asking for already exists. You just have to check the box that says auto-accept if you don't even want to browse through it.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-10-24 at 05:46 AM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    TBF I don't do Mythics because I find the process just more inconvenient (manually forming and having to run to the portal [because people cba using summoning stone in my experience)
    So you don't do mythic just because you're extremely lazy?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm sorry, at this point you're just making up numbers. There is no point in current content will ever have a wait in the queue that long. MAYBE if you're queuing for something really obscure, like WotLK heroics or something.
    YES! EXACTLY! Now take this argument and apply it against yourself when you're arguing against having the ability to find tanks in LFG, and we might finally have gotten somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm sorry...what? The matchmaking system that has worked perfectly fine for YEARS is suddenly a "problem" that needs to be addressed in order to fix a problem which is not created by it, and I'M the one making a mountain out of a molehill? Riiiiiiiiiiight.....
    The matchmaking system has always and continues to cause a rather large amount of harm to the game for reasons I have already explained. I refuse to go over it again. As someone else said in response to all this crap you just let out: Hard content and LFD goes together like toothpaste and orange juice. You can do it, sure, but it's really nasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And who said anything about quality? The entire point of using matchmaking is to simply guarantee you a group while you go do other things. The moment you enter the queue you accept that the group will be random, both in terms of composition, gear, and skill. This is the drawback that a person accepts by using the LFD tool. Why is that even an arguing point?
    Because that means the group probably can't do challenging content, which means that LFD-enabled content cannot be challenging - because if it is... see the point above.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And that's exactly the kind of autocratic power that Matchmaking provides protection from.
    You know what also provides protection from that? Playing solo. Oooh but then you can only see 95% of an expansion rather than 100%? Oh what will we ever do. It's the end of the world, I tell you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But it also does not stop players from using their own pre-made groups either. So why attempt to limit players from using LFD for any or all content if they are willing to accept the consequences?
    Because it's a trap. It leads players who don't know any better into a frustrating and boring experiences, and that's probably going to make them quit.

    I couldn't cram most of my guildies into LFD/LFR. They're the few people who tried it, hated it, and somehow managed to not quit. They got out of the trap. But I don't think the trap should be there in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Except that the content is NOT LOCKED to LFD/LFR only, and you always have the option to use the pre-made tools to attack the content from another angle. Again, if you use the matchmaking system you've already accepted that you will be using random people, with random skill, and no guarantee of victory. Sometimes you gamble with this and lose. Sometimes you win. I have met some of the worst players imaginable using matchmaking, but I've also met some of the most patient, highly-geared, and highly-skilled players using it as well.

    Look, all I'm saying is that it's stupid to claim that only one system has all the answers. They clearly do not.
    No, but LFD/LFR gives you extra rewards and extra power and teleports you to the dungeon automatically, giving it a huge leg up on organized groups in terms of efficiency, although by no means in terms of fun. However, being a progression-focused, exploration-focused online RPG, people will groupthink themselves into taking the easy but less fun option. See also Heirlooms.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 2016-10-24 at 10:44 AM.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Unless Blizzard doesn't nerf the content...
    Except they will. They have done this on several occasions - just look at Oculus pre-nerf in Wrath. People would leave as soon as the dungeon came up in group finder.

    Look at Cata Heroics. The amount of QQ on the forums about how the difficulty was "unacceptable" was staggering.

    They aren't stupid, they know very well that the majority of people using matchmaking expect success. As mentioned by someone else, the worst feeling you can have when wiping on content is knowing that you are not responsible.

    As it stands though, I (personally) think that if they remove Runes and queue rewards from LFR/LFD and provide a separate tier of Artifact model/skins for people to work toward, then the system works just fine. One of the biggest issues they have right now is that they practically bribe organised raiders into LFR/LFD with the rewards. Quite honestly, forcing these two very groups to mix is causing a lot of issues with the wider community, and it needs to stop.

    Another matter that needs fixing is the LFG tool - there is no real reason why DPS can't queue up and specify which dungeons they want to run, which difficulty, and then be auto-suggested to groups that are looking for more people. I totally agree that DPS must find it tedious to trawl through multiple groups and wait for a yes/no. At least give these poor guys the opportunity to sign up and then go do something else like World Quests.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  13. #253
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    So you don't do mythic just because you're extremely lazy?
    I don't do Mythics because I could be doing something more fun than micro-managing a group. I did that shit in Vanilla. I much prefer queuing up, continue questing, instantly enter the dungeon, finish, teleport out and be where I last were. You may call it lazy, I call it convenience. If people enjoy that then fair play, I don't and neither do others. I don't really care if Blizzard change it or not because I don't care about ilvl

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    the worst feeling you can have when wiping on content is knowing that you are not responsible
    And does this not happen exactly the same in organised groups?
    An organised group is most likely not going to fail in an heroic dungeon (most LFD groups do not fail also), but as you engage into harder content, that "horrible" feeling of wiping and knowing it is not your fault is present at all times, even in 5-man content, much more so in 20-man raiding.

  15. #255
    Scarab Lord TriHard's Avatar
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I don't do Mythics because I could be doing something more fun than micro-managing a group. I did that shit in Vanilla. I much prefer queuing up, continue questing, instantly enter the dungeon, finish, teleport out and be where I last were. You may call it lazy, I call it convenience. If people enjoy that then fair play, I don't and neither do others. I don't really care if Blizzard change it or not because I don't care about ilvl
    So pressing a few buttons to invite four people to your party then going to the summoning stone is micro-managing? I think the guy you replied to hit the nail on the head.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryla View Post
    And does this not happen exactly the same in organised groups?
    An organised group is most likely not going to fail in an heroic dungeon (most LFD groups do not fail also), but as you engage into harder content, that "horrible" feeling of wiping and knowing it is not your fault is present at all times, even in 5-man content, much more so in 20-man raiding.
    No, it doesn't.

    You can easily argue that it wasn't your fault in combat, but in those cases, if you rewind a bit, you can see the mistake you made: You joined THAT group/guild instead of another one. At this point, you can leave at any time.

    The same goes the other way around. If someone keeps messing up and is ruining your day, and you're the leader, you can remove that person and find someone else. There's a way out of it without you being punished. The player that doesn't fit in gets punished rather than everyone else.

    In LFD/LFR, you will get punished for leaving and you often cannot kick at all, and you didn't choose to join THAT group, you just chose to join A group. Any group. And you got a bad one because RNG. When you sign up again, it's perfectly possible that you'll get another horrible group, and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 2016-10-24 at 01:42 PM.

  18. #258
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I don't do Mythics because I could be doing something more fun than micro-managing a group. I did that shit in Vanilla. I much prefer queuing up, continue questing, instantly enter the dungeon, finish, teleport out and be where I last were. You may call it lazy, I call it convenience. If people enjoy that then fair play, I don't and neither do others. I don't really care if Blizzard change it or not because I don't care about ilvl
    I do mythics and Mythic+ with i group, but i do use and enjoy a lot LFD when equiping my alters, because it is for me far more interesting than questing for gear.
    I would not use LFD for doing mythic+ dungeons, but heroics and maybe Mythic, yes why not? it is far more entertaining than questing, and people play well enough and are more than polite lately.
    I am really happy of having LFD in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    You can easily argue that it wasn't your fault in combat, but in those cases, if you rewind a bit, you can see the mistake you made: You joined THAT group/guild instead of another one. At this point, you can leave at any time.
    So you can join another guild and make the same "mistake" again? and again, and again and again.....

    There is absolutely no way in this game to escape the frustration of wiping and not being your fault, because it is a multiplayer game, it is something you have to accept it will happen.
    Last edited by mmoccf1d2005b5; 2016-10-24 at 01:45 PM.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryla View Post
    So you can join another guild and make the same "mistake" again? and again, and again and again.....
    That's YOU making mistakes though, not the game. The game doesn't decide what guild you joined, you did. The game did decide what LFD group it put you in, and you didn't. That's the CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryla View Post
    There is absolutely no way in this game to escape the frustration of wiping and not being your fault, because it is a multiplayer game, it is something you have to accept it will happen.
    A previous mistake can lead to consequences later. You joined a group you did not like earlier, and now you're paying for it. I can't believe I have to explain that you. Even a toddler understands that.

    Cats don't, though... maybe you're a cat.

    Btw: I don't find it frustrating to wipe with friends who are trying as hard as I am.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 2016-10-24 at 01:53 PM.

  20. #260
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    That's YOU making mistakes though, not the game. The game doesn't decide what guild you joined, you did. The game did decide what LFD group it put you in, and you didn't. That's the CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE.
    The game decided to be a multiplayer game mainly, and that means that whatever guild you join, even if it is method/serenity/exorsus, you are gonna be eating wipes that are not your fault, one after the other, so it is not anyone´s mistake, it is a game design decision.
    The only way of preventing eating a wipe that is not your fault is solo play.

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