[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[AtomicT]

quick question about BoP - how exactly does it affect threat when it's put on tanks? do they completely lose threat or does it get reduced significantly?

also does BoP work on scenarists nightmare spear in his final phase?

[EzG]

quick question about BoP - how exactly does it affect threat when it's put on tanks? do they completely lose threat or does it get reduced significantly?

also does BoP work on scenarists nightmare spear in his final phase?

Threat drops but a taunt will last until it wears off.

[fabonaut]

With the nerfs to Sanctified Wrath in 7.1, does JoL become the better choice for Holy Paladins, assuming there is no other Paladin using it? Or are the 50% reduced cooldown on HS still superior?

I also don't understand the Rule of Law change. Is the buffed ranged to Tyr's Deliverance a passive effect independent from the on use effect?

[EzG]

With the nerfs to Sanctified Wrath in 7.1, does JoL become the better choice for Holy Paladins, assuming there is no other Paladin using it? Or are the 50% reduced cooldown on HS still superior?

I also don't understand the Rule of Law change. Is the buffed ranged to Tyr's Deliverance a passive effect independent from the on use effect?

As for the 5 second nerf to SW I would say that depends on your current situation and your raid group. 5 seconds is hardly anything assuming whatever heavy damage you're healing isn't lasting the entire length of SW. I suppose that is the current situation now, and 5 seconds barely changes that. JoL becomes worthwhile with the legendary ring for sure, but again it depends on your raid group. JoL is a passive gain over the course of the fight like Mercy, but if your raid group needs that extra oomph at a particular spot a super cd that might net a little more overhealing with HS might be useful.

As for Tyr's Deliverance I'm just guessing it can jump further now. Nothing game changing.

[fabonaut]

As for the 5 second nerf to SW I would say that depends on your current situation and your raid group. 5 seconds is hardly anything assuming whatever heavy damage you're healing isn't lasting the entire length of SW. I suppose that is the current situation now, and 5 seconds barely changes that. JoL becomes worthwhile with the legendary ring for sure, but again it depends on your raid group. JoL is a passive gain over the course of the fight like Mercy, but if your raid group needs that extra oomph at a particular spot a super cd that might net a little more overhealing with HS might be useful.

Ok, I do have the ring actually, but I'm raiding with a Prot. Paladin who also uses JoL. If I can talk him out of using it, it might be worthwhile using JoL now? I'm really really torn. The 50% reduced CD on HS during AW still seems superior. With my raid group we are currently crusing through EN heroic every week and I don't have a mythic raiding group, but I want to be prepared for newer content... What do you think?

As for Tyr's Deliverance I'm just guessing it can jump further now. Nothing game changing.

Yes, it does. Have asked in the Paladin Discord about it. Apparaently TD as well as LH were not affected by RoL before, and TD now is. So it's basically a quality of life improvement but nothing more.

What do you think about the FoL changes? I do sometimes run out of mana at the very end of fight, I have to admit. I might be using HL more now.

[Alextros]

Ok, I do have the ring actually, but I'm raiding with a Prot. Paladin who also uses JoL. If I can talk him out of using it, it might be worthwhile using JoL now?

Dont talk him out of it, his talent row is not the greatest, so your team gets the most benefit for your Prot Pala going JoL and you going Sanc. Wrath.

The FoL mana increase is followed by a small SP increase aswell, so I dont think it will affect you that much, other than we are not somewhat stupidly broken when it comes to mana A good way to reduce some of your FoL usage (outside Infusion procs), would be to weave a few Martyrs in. Just be aware of health and current situation

[Simulacrum]

...

The FoL mana increase is followed by a small SP increase aswell, so I dont think it will affect you that much, other than we are not somewhat stupidly broken when it comes to mana A good way to reduce some of your FoL usage (outside Infusion procs), would be to weave a few Martyrs in. Just be aware of health and current situation

That would be a really stupid 'solution' to that problem, as martyr is less mana efficient than fol.

[Deleted]

That would be a really stupid 'solution' to that problem, as martyr is less mana efficient than fol.

Situational.

[Simulacrum]

Situational.

Unless that situation is that you're moving (in which case it's still incredibly mana inefficient and thus something you'd only do if you cared about hps, not hpm), or are immune to damage, no. In either case, you don't "weave" in situational spells to your normal priority system, definitely not in the case of a less efficient one when your goal is so save mana. That's like standing in avoidable aoes to survive longer.

[Tenjen]

Say guys, how does the range of Holy Prism work in raids? I'm used to seeing the beams but when i cast it on a large raid boss i dont usually see any beams shoot out to players.

is it just the visuals being muted in raid content or are certain raid bosses just too large for each people to be in range? I'am not quite sure if the "15 yards" is the point of spell contact or the edge of the boss.

[Hawg]

That would be a really stupid 'solution' to that problem, as martyr is less mana efficient than fol.

He specifically said "outside infusion procs" so I'm not sure how you are calculating that Lotm is less mana efficient than a non-infused FoL unless you are only counting heals on your beacon?

[Simulacrum]

He specifically said "outside infusion procs" so I'm not sure how you are calculating that Lotm is less mana efficient than a non-infused FoL unless you are only counting heals on your beacon?

I see you in your thread spamming your math; you know the values as well as I do, so you should know that when the self-damage of lotm is factored in it is the least efficient spell in our entire toolkit. Don't see why we need to go through this whole thing again before you admit that actually you're not factoring in the self-damage into your calculation so that means lotm is a good spell after all.

It is a shitty spell. Never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead. In fact, just never cast it unless you're moving or you want to kill yourself.

[Nedralixx]

I see you in your thread spamming your math; you know the values as well as I do, so you should know that when the self-damage of lotm is factored in it is the least efficient spell in our entire toolkit. Don't see why we need to go through this whole thing again before you admit that actually you're not factoring in the self-damage into your calculation so that means lotm is a good spell after all.

It is a shitty spell. Never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead. In fact, just never cast it unless you're moving or you want to kill yourself.

LotM is very handy if your tank stands at 20%, you're already casting FoL and you want to pair it with a strong instant heal to save him/her (apart from Holy Shock). Arguments, like "use it only if you want to die" are worlds apart from constructive. With this kind of rationale don't cast Blessing of Sacrifice either. You might die. Every spell has its niche and it is effective (with the broad sense of the term) under different circumstances. LotM can save a lot of difficult circumstances in raids and in mythic +. Just use your brain.

[Afrikanz]

LotM is very handy if your tank stands at 20%, you're already casting FoL and you want to pair it with a strong instant heal to save him/her (apart from Holy Shock). Arguments, like "use it only if you want to die" are worlds apart from constructive. With this kind of rationale don't cast Blessing of Sacrifice either. You might die. Every spell has its niche and it is effective (with the broad sense of the term) under different circumstances. LotM can save a lot of difficult circumstances in raids and in mythic +. Just use your brain.

This. I find that using LotM in this manner comes in handy in many different situations, especially progressing through Mythic EN. For instance, during Mythic Ursoc if I ever find one of our tanks are taking heavy damage right as another charge is about to go out I will attempt to use Holy Shock for some quick burst healing if it's off CD. However, if not, LotM helps fill the same role as HS. No, it isn't as efficient as any of our other heals, but if I have to make the choice between letting my tank hover at ~20-30% (especially if I know the whole raid is about to take a large amount of damage) while casting another FoL or being able to bring him up to a much safer number I will always choose the latter.

Seems like there are quite a few people making the assumption that, just because <spell> is inefficient, you should never cast it. As Nedralixx said, "Just use your brain."

[Unir]

This. I find that using LotM in this manner comes in handy in many different situations, especially progressing through Mythic EN. For instance, during Mythic Ursoc if I ever find one of our tanks are taking heavy damage right as another charge is about to go out I will attempt to use Holy Shock for some quick burst healing if it's off CD. However, if not, LotM helps fill the same role as HS. No, it isn't as efficient as any of our other heals, but if I have to make the choice between letting my tank hover at ~20-30% (especially if I know the whole raid is about to take a large amount of damage) while casting another FoL or being able to bring him up to a much safer number I will always choose the latter.

Seems like there are quite a few people making the assumption that, just because <spell> is inefficient, you should never cast it. As Nedralixx said, "Just use your brain."

They are using their brain, but apparently you didn't notice. You have just illustrated one of the very few use cases where LotM might be favored: HS on cd, player about to die, no time for anything else. Presumably you also mean LoH on cd, as that would be the best choice in that scenario, and maybe even HP on cd. Ironically, though, Ursoc can be one of the more dangerous encounters to use LotM in.

Ultimately what Simulacrum said is correct. Weaving in LotM in order to help with mana problems from increased FoL cost is pure foolishness, as is using it outside of its relatively infrequent use case.

The math is really simple and straightforward. I'm surprised disagreement about how to use this spell is still a thing.

[Afrikanz]

They are using their brain, but apparently you didn't notice. You have just illustrated one of the very few use cases where LotM might be favored: HS on cd, player about to die, no time for anything else. Presumably you also mean LoH on cd, as that would be the best choice in that scenario, and maybe even HP on cd. Ironically, though, Ursoc can be one of the more dangerous encounters to use LotM in.

Ultimately what Simulacrum said is correct. Weaving in LotM in order to help with mana problems from increased FoL cost is pure foolishness, as is using it outside of its relatively infrequent use case.

The math is really simple and straightforward. I'm surprised disagreement about how to use this spell is still a thing.

While I agree that the use cases for this spell are pretty limited I think you maybe misunderstood the point of my post. At no point did I mention anything about using LotM to increase mana efficiency, in fact I stated almost the exact opposite.

I'm simply arguing against what Simulacrum posted about never casting it if you can use FoL instead. "It is a shitty spell. Never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead. In fact, just never cast it unless you're moving or you want to kill yourself." My point is that there ARE definitely use cases for LotM outside of what most people realize, not that it will ever be more mana efficient.

Additionally, I'm not sure casting LotM during Ursoc is any more dangerous than running AoS (which seems to be the most frequently used aura on this fight). One single cast of LotM to supplement an IoLFoL cast is only going to cost maybe 2-3% of your total health pool. As a Holy Paladin, you should know that we have one of the largest health pools, if not the largest, of any non-tank class in the game right now. We should make use of it where we can.

I also have to disagree with using LoH in the above situation, seems like a bit of a waste to use such a valuable CD on a tank with 20-30% of their health left. I generally tend to exhaust all other options and save LoH for incredibly dire situations i.e. <10%.

I don't think there is any disagreement with the math here, only the interpretation of the results.

[Deleted]

I see you in your thread spamming your math; you know the values as well as I do, so you should know that when the self-damage of lotm is factored in it is the least efficient spell in our entire toolkit. Don't see why we need to go through this whole thing again before you admit that actually you're not factoring in the self-damage into your calculation so that means lotm is a good spell after all.

It is a shitty spell. Never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead. In fact, just never cast it unless you're moving or you want to kill yourself.

And you should know equally, that when incidental aoe healing (others, as well as your own), hots and the like, that statement is situational. You're being as willfully ignorant as you're insinuating others are.

[Deleted]

And you should know equally, that when incidental aoe healing (others, as well as your own), hots and the like, that statement is situational. You're being as willfully ignorant as you're insinuating others are.

I vouch that Simulacrum is 100% right and 0% a faggot.

Or maybe it is the other way around.

[Deleted]

I vouch that Simulacrum is 100% right and 0% a faggot.

Or maybe it is the other way around.

Well there isn't any in between in anything ever, so I guess gawd, you must be right!

Or wrong.

[Wooblez]

Hey guys with the buff to horn of cenarius, is it worth looking at using?