should i go vegan?

[vep]

Ok, now I understand what your point was.

However, its wrong. Do you think the process for clearing the land to grow grass is different then clearing it for crops? Do you think less animals are killed in mowing that down for hay then cultivating the crops? Do you think all or even most cows are fed this way? What about pigs, chickens, turkey, goats, sheep, etc.?



Ok, so the only food you eat, you pick form that farm? You never go to a restaurant? You never buy packaged stuff that has ingredients you don't think of? I ask, because I keep getting told that by people like you, over and over and over, and none of them ever seem to fess up to the truth. But ok, fine, I'll stipulate, you're that one of like 1,000 people in the modern world that do that. Do you think that's the trend then or do you not even acknowledge the existence of factory farms?

I'm confused again. You mention dogs fighting then healing, then fighting again but then say you're not talking about living conditions.

I'm giving up, mate. Your rationale is flawless. You win.

[Witchblade77]

1. myth myth myth myth. It's not expensive to eat a proper vegan diet. In fact meat is usually the expensive thing in our groceries, at least where I live. Eating a healthy vegan diet is cheaper in most cases. Eating vegan doesn't imply buying all fancy organic. Also "free range" means absolutely nothing, it's just a label, see this

2. Agreed it's his own choice. MMO-champion is full of the "muh bacon" crowd that will give you stupid answers. Do your own research.

I'm expecting a lot of "vegans are malnourished", "no reason to go vegan", "meat is perfectly healthy", "they're animals bro who cares", "it's natural to eat meat" and so on in this thread, I don't want to argue for days as to why those are stupid arguments, I'll just leave this links so you can do your own research. The evidence is there that vegan diets offer health benefits, that vegan diets are better for the environment, and that it is ethically better (guess it's subjective... but not really honestly). I just think it's a better diet overall, there aren't many arguments against it other than "I like the taste of my bacon", which I guess is valid. Too many people come up with the dumbest arguments to feel better, some people even say plants also are sentient and conscious beings lol. I mean even the myth that you need meat to become strong etc have been debunked, just look at some vegan bodybuilders, strongmen etc... Jon Venus on youtube for example.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

http://scholar.harvard.edu/juliamins...ally-motivated

http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/...6192-diet.html

http://i.imgur.com/Xygnetb.png
http://i.imgur.com/PLhJgbo.png

I could go on for days on how we're culturally just desensitized to the whole meat industry.. we just go to the groceries and buy a steak with no idea what happened, we don't even think about it. I think the meat industry is messed up, personally I have no problem with killing an animal to eat it, but rather with the way we raised those animals and the conditions they live in before they died, for example if someone just goes to hunt a wild animal and eats it, I don't really find that wrong, since the animal didn't live such a shitty life before getting killed. There's really no reason to support this industry if vegan diets are proven to be a viable and even healthier alternative. Oh well I think in the future it's very likely that vegan diets will be mainstream and we will look back in shame at the meat industry.

1. not a myth. and I say that as someone who mostly eats veggies. I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, but the only way its cheaper is if you buy frozen veggies only. and even then its not significantly cheaper, in fact, I'd say its about same to be vegetarian vs omnivore, provided you stay away from processed foods in either case.

I buy whole chicken at $2 a pound, and that's for the humanely treated one (you know you can research specific farms right?). the ones that are not - are about 50- 60 cents a pound. last I checked eggs for free range are about $3 a pound? I think? I have my own chickens, so haven't bought them in a while, regular non free range eggs are about 1.50) zucchini are at least $2 a pound IN season (part of the reason why I started growing my own) and not as filling, same for tomatoes, carrots and potatoes. lettuce is $3-4 a pound (I tend to stick to romaine, as I don't like tastes of other types and iceberg is basically water). spinach is something like 6 or 8. rice and beans ARE cheap, no doubt about that, and bananas make for a nice snack - usually range between 50 to 1 a pound around here, but they are not exactly complete (and beans take a long time to cook). don't get me started on fancy grains, like quinoa. I love quinoa in my salad, but I also don't want to use up all my budget, so I don't eat it often (kinda the same with beef stakes). most fancier veggies and fruits start getting into that very price (higher then the steak) territory. tofu costs more than chicken and tastes worse, plus too much soy is a bad idea, so not something you can rely on consistently. almond milk costs almost twice that of the regular milk. but I digress, carbs and fiber are easy.. its the protein and certain vitamins that can be difficult. balancing the all out vegan diet is a well, balancing act. it is MUCH harder to get right than vegetarian (that allows for dairy) let alone omnivore diet. and pre-made foods tend to cost an arm and a leg. plus processed foods are not all that great for you regardless of which way you go.

oh and btw? look at our teeth, humans are omnivores naturally, we are NOT naturally vegan. we are naturally "eat whatever we can get out hands on." which is why it takes such a balancing act. its not impossible. and if done right - can be healthier then a stereotypical american diet mostly cause you'd be cutting out processed foods (but hey, you can do the same as omnivore and feel better)

just like gluten free - there is NO physiological reason to go vegan, its not objectively better or healthier in any way for an average person (and honestly? as someone who has actualy grown my own food? it takes a LOT of space and effort for the amount of food that I STILL have to supplement with store bought stuff, and yeah, it also affects the environment in some negative ways in part just by sheer amount of space that is required)

yes meat industry is messed up. and lets be honest here - so is agricultural commercial industry. commercial food production - tends to be either cheap, or environmentally conscious. never both.

[Azadina]

Do you think that's the trend then or do you not even acknowledge the existence of factory farms?

To answer this from my pov: They do exist, and personally I don't buy products from such places. I don't need to be vegan in order to not support them. If I buy nothing from them, such as you, then I do exactly the same to oppose it.

[Jetstream]

Meh. If you're concerned about how the animals are treated and chemicals, eat Kosher meat. Kosher rules are strict as hell. It'll be expensive but it should take care of your moral and health quandaries. I imagine Halal is the same.

[Underverse]

Stop.

You're absolutely misrepresenting the argument based on false equivalences and frankly a severe lack of information.

Number 1: Ethical vegans have a single rule, do the least amount of harm possible.
Number 2: There is no correlation between microorganisms lives and animal lives. You are equating two dissimilar things. Its even more of difference than me saying you don't want a member of your family killed therefore you should not want Hitler killed, they're both people, after all.
Number 3: And I don't know why this has to keep getting reexplained, but animals are killed to grow food for livestock as well. So this is real simple math, if X= animals killed to grow crops, then which is doing the least amount of harm:

15 billion animals slaughtered directly for food + X killed in the process of growing crops

or

X

Why are microorganisms irrelevant? Is it only harm if it can feel pain?

Did the microorganisms do something bad to you? You slaughter billions of commensal organisms every day. They're providing you with nutrition.

If your argument is that other organisms, like humans, should be evaluated by their utility (which is what I'm guessing you mean with your Hitler analogy), then is that not an argument in favor of using animals for their utility - as food?

Along another vein, what about the pounds and pounds of plant life that you're destroying? Or is harm to plants irrelevant because they don't have eyes?

And in terms of nutrition, why are you ignoring the deleterious effects of such a restricted and incomplete diet? There's a cost here as well, and it has yet to be justified. Or are you willing to sacrifice your health, and the health of your children, for a handful of cows that exist only because we bred them to be eaten?

[Azadina]

Meh. If you're concerned about how the animals are treated and chemicals, eat Kosher meat. Kosher rules are strict as hell. It'll be expensive but it should take care of your moral and health quandaries. I imagine Halal is the same.

Oh, it's definitely not.

[Underverse]

But fine, I would assume in your world no animal is more important than any plant?

What is the source of moral value?

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Ok, so the only food you eat, you pick form that farm? You never go to a restaurant? You never buy packaged stuff that has ingredients you don't think of? I ask, because I keep getting told that by people like you, over and over and over, and none of them ever seem to fess up to the truth. But ok, fine, I'll stipulate, you're that one of like 1,000 people in the modern world that do that. Do you think that's the trend then or do you not even acknowledge the existence of factory farms?

I'm confused again. You mention dogs fighting then healing, then fighting again but then say you're not talking about living conditions.

One can recognize the moral cost of factory farms while eating meat from factory farms. Hypocrisy of the arguer does not negate his argument; hypocrisy within an argument does.

[Deleted]

Meh. If you're concerned about how the animals are treated and chemicals, eat Kosher meat. Kosher rules are strict as hell. It'll be expensive but it should take care of your moral and health quandaries. I imagine Halal is the same.

How are those methods morally more acceptable?

[Gimlix]

Fun fact: your post proves that you care.

Also, this thread is (very, very) obvious bait.

Doesn't mean he cares. I can write things and still don't care about them.
I did homework when i was at school, still didn't care about homework.

[Jetstream]

Oh, it's definitely not.

Well, I know a bunch of Jews but not many Muslims so, fair enough.

How are those methods morally more acceptable?

Depends on what you object to. That said, I know there are strict guidelines for the care of the animal, and that failure to follow them renders the meat not Kosher.

As for the details, not completely sure. I'm not super concerned with it myself. The deluge of antibiotics most meat production uses would certainly be verboten, tho.

[Fasc]

Yeah maybe if you severely reduce your red meat consumption and eat mainly plant based, but that's not what most meat eaters do. At that point, might as well eat vegan. Look at the "health benefits" section here http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/...6192-diet.html

Red meats are a whole different kettle of fish from other forms of meat, so don't jump from omnivore to vegan as if there are no options between the two. Fish and poultry are excellent sources of nutrient and I haven't the slightest problem with reducing red meat consumption. That "most meat eaters do" anything is irrelevant to the diet... and pretty much shoots the vegan side in the head because "most vegans" fail to actually balance their diets and thus are malnourished. /shrug

I don't think it's a secret that the meat industry is a huge impact on the environment, can you provide me some links to show me otherwise? The meat industry isn't really sustainable. Anyways personally I don't really care about this argument as much as the other two.

The meat industry is definitely sustainable... that's an absurd declaration. If we can't keep breeding cows or chickens, we have some severe overall issues with the planet. Also you're deflecting, I didn't say meat industries have no impact, I said you focusing only on meat industries shows your bias, that's all. Thank you for proving the point though.

Yes of course everything ethical is subjective, but we're at a point where we do not need to eat meat, it's simply for our pleasure, so do you think your pleasure for that bite of bacon is worth the suffering of those animals? I guess that's subjective, but you must be pretty messed up to think that piece of bacon is worth letting another sentient being suffer. I've never personally understood the "it's just an animal" argument, yes they're not as intelligent as us, but they still are sentient beings. So you think it's ok to just torture animals because "they're animals". I really never got this. Humans aren't the center of the universe, and we should use our intelligence/morals to make the decision to not eat meat instead, since we're perfectly capable of doing so.

"We don't need to eat beans, it's simply for our pleasure, we have meat products instead!"

Spare me the suffering arguments of other sentient beings who are in no way, shape, or form the same level of sentience of any human. No living thing wants to die, that's sort of our genetic imperative to endure, but that fact (and the responses to things that threaten or cause death) do not dissuade any sort of argument from eating those animals. And I never said you can torture animals, but this is a vegan argument so I'm not entirely surprised that if I'm OK with eating a pig, I must also (somehow) be okay with torturing a pig. Even humanely treated animal farms still end with slaughter and death, and there really is no way around that.

As for using our intelligence and morals? Meat products serve us quite well in sustaining life and giving us the nutrients we otherwise cannot get from other sources... so therefore eat meat.

PS - Poor fish, never considered in these arguments ever. Probably the lack of cuddle factor... oh well. One day my friends, one day a vegan will consider your acquisition, gutting, serving, and consumption when making the "Animals are friends, not food" argument.

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Nutritional health is far from a settled science. Plenty of people on both sides are very healthy and plenty aren't.

It really isn't all that difficult science either, actually talk to dietitians instead of blogs and doctors with no nutritional training or expertise. Even carefully crafted vegan diets, if you're actually trying to stay true to "no animal products" as a rule, will be deficient in a number of nutrients. Deviations from the pinnacle diets always cause problems, but vegan diets start already subpar and get worse from there.

No. There is no environmental impact from growing crops for human food that doesn't also pertain to growing crops for livestock. A cow eats 24 lbs a day for about 2 years, which produces only 500lbs of meat. That means the amount of crops grown to feed to livestock far outweighs the crops grown for humans. Then on top of that, you have all the pollution from livestock themselves. That's not up in the air/ambiguous/unknown/unsettled/etc.

You miss my point entirely. Environmental impact is a quantitative thing, something we can measure, and something that isn't subjective. Harping upon the impacts of meat industry without also associating the impacts of simple agriculture is intellectual dishonesty. Even if every time "meat industry" is mentioned, it can be inferred that there are plant based impacts as well, that's never the point being made.

As for the pollution sources... that's a climate change argument and given your track record thus far... you're ill-equipped for that.

There is absolutely a dichotomy. You are ok with animals dying (and living horribly) for your enjoyment. That is literally no different than someone being ok with dog fighting. They are both the EXACT same thing, as both justify the killing (and worse) of animals for enjoyment.

Dog fighting pits two animals together to savage one another, injuries being not only deliberate but the desired outcome.

Even in the worst of factory conditions, the cramped and fetid spaces are not malicious, merely neglectful. That you think they're the EXACT same thing... just indicts your own thinking. Believe "Animals are friends, not food" all you like, we're omnivores and we can and should eat them... whether they like it or not.

[aysatsana]

Red meats are a whole different kettle of fish from other forms of meat, so don't jump from omnivore to vegan as if there are no options between the two. Fish and poultry are excellent sources of nutrient and I haven't the slightest problem with reducing red meat consumption. That "most meat eaters do" anything is irrelevant to the diet... and pretty much shoots the vegan side in the head because "most vegans" fail to actually balance their diets and thus are malnourished. /shrug


The meat industry is definitely sustainable... that's an absurd declaration. If we can't keep breeding cows or chickens, we have some severe overall issues with the planet. Also you're deflecting, I didn't say meat industries have no impact, I said you focusing only on meat industries shows your bias, that's all. Thank you for proving the point though.


"We don't need to eat beans, it's simply for our pleasure, we have meat products instead!"

Spare me the suffering arguments of other sentient beings who are in no way, shape, or form the same level of sentience of any human. No living thing wants to die, that's sort of our genetic imperative to endure, but that fact (and the responses to things that threaten or cause death) do not dissuade any sort of argument from eating those animals. And I never said you can torture animals, but this is a vegan argument so I'm not entirely surprised that if I'm OK with eating a pig, I must also (somehow) be okay with torturing a pig. Even humanely treated animal farms still end with slaughter and death, and there really is no way around that.

As for using our intelligence and morals? Meat products serve us quite well in sustaining life and giving us the nutrients we otherwise cannot get from other sources... so therefore eat meat.

PS - Poor fish, never considered in these arguments ever. Probably the lack of cuddle factor... oh well. One day my friends, one day a vegan will consider your acquisition, gutting, serving, and consumption when making the "Animals are friends, not food" argument.

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It really isn't all that difficult science either, actually talk to dietitians instead of blogs and doctors with no nutritional training or expertise. Even carefully crafted vegan diets, if you're actually trying to stay true to "no animal products" as a rule, will be deficient in a number of nutrients. Deviations from the pinnacle diets always cause problems, but vegan diets start already subpar and get worse from there.


You miss my point entirely. Environmental impact is a quantitative thing, something we can measure, and something that isn't subjective. Harping upon the impacts of meat industry without also associating the impacts of simple agriculture is intellectual dishonesty. Even if every time "meat industry" is mentioned, it can be inferred that there are plant based impacts as well, that's never the point being made.

As for the pollution sources... that's a climate change argument and given your track record thus far... you're ill-equipped for that.


Dog fighting pits two animals together to savage one another, injuries being not only deliberate but the desired outcome.

Even in the worst of factory conditions, the cramped and fetid spaces are not malicious, merely neglectful. That you think they're the EXACT same thing... just indicts your own thinking. Believe "Animals are friends, not food" all you like, we're omnivores and we can and should eat them... whether they like it or not.

You are so ignorant. You say that carefully planned vegan diets are still deficient, says who? No one cares about your opinion. Here's what top medical organizations have to say about that http://m.imgur.com/PLhJgbo?r

It's pointless having an argument with someone like you.

[AsariCommando]

a few years ago i watched this video called food inc.

A few years ago? If you enjoy meat, then don't go vegan. If you don't enjoy meat, then do whatever you want?

[Mafic]

Prehistoric humans were hunter-gatherers. Grains did not figure significantly in human diet until they were available in significant quantity with the advent of agriculture.

Most of prehistory humans were not hunter gatherers.

[Deleted]

Artichokes on pizza are amazing, I'd also ask some black olives and bell peppers!

[Tavin]

If you want to be annoying to everyone around you and limit yourself while eating out, then yes.

[Deleted]

Sorry, no I don't eat meat like that.

If I wanted something that feels like chewing gum in my mouth, I'd just buy chewing gum.

I'd kill for this...

[Pony Soldier]

If you're basing your decision on becoming a vegan from watching a video about butchering animals for meat and a McDonald's pink slime video you're not basing your decision on very good reasons. I mean first of all where did you think meat came from? Did you think a mage just conjured it up using meat magic? Of course they get chopped up and grinded down. As far as the chemicals they supposedly put in, they put chemicals in EVERYTHING nowadays. Only way you'll get away from it is if you grow your own stuff. Plus I'm still alive and I've been eating meat all my life, never had a third arm growing out my neck or anything. As far as McDonald's go if you're grossed out by it then don't go to McDonald's. It's not the sole representation of meat. Their burgers are dry and taste fake as hell. Go to a real burger joint like Five Guys or Steak and Shake and you'll see the difference. It's amazing.

I mean if you want to become vegan don't let a forum tell you otherwise but the reasons you presented here are pretty weak. You seen a video of animals getting chopped up and treated "unethically". They get dismembered and ground up, who cares? They die one way or another and are consumed and turned to shit that is flushed down your toilet. Get that unethical shit outta here.

[Segus1992]

Telling your neighbor to turn down their music doesn't mean you hate the genre, it means it's too loud.

Good analogy, shame it makes no sense and has no relevance whatsoever.

[Flarelaine]

Most of prehistory humans were not hunter gatherers.

"Hunting and gathering was humanity's first and most successful adaptation, occupying at least 90 percent of human history."