1. #30921
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    5. You'd piss off the casuals, cause Vanilla WoW wasn't made for them. And they'll try cause everyone and their mother is preaching how good Vanilla was.
    HELLO! MCFLY! Is someone home?
    Vanilla was made by a group of EQ players that wanted something more casual, and thats all what wow was from the start for the casuals.

  2. #30922
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Lmfao, so people would drop a "grind" in NEW content for an even bigger, mindnumbing grind in content from over a decade ago?
    No. Thinking a Legacy server would compete with Live is a very tall order when Nostalrius had only a fraction of active players. Many accounts made, low retention rate as people got their nostalgia fix. It's not "too big" when compared to 10 million Legion players.

    My bet would be that official Legacy servers would see the same thing, especially since they'd not be FREE. Many would try it out, but a small fraction would stick with playing content from 2004 over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
    ok Dr, here is your phd

    btw you do realize that wow's retention rate is low as well right? I mean 3 months into an xpac and numbers fall dramatically, 6 months in and the game is half its population at start.

  3. #30923
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    1 - Tank Threat is irrelevant
    Tanks still rely on threat, the mechanics is the same. "Irrelevant" is subjective.
    You couldn't have Alliance and Horde chars on the same PvP server, which helped faction pride.
    No private server in existence follows that rule.

  4. #30924
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    This is a bad analogy.

    The "gym", in this case Retail WoW, stopped being a gym where people go to lose weight, and became a trash food restaurant. They didn't just paint walls, the bloody demolished them [Cataclysm] and built an ugly skeleton superstructure on top of it which results to the old establishment (WoW 1.XX & 2.XX ) being obliterated and lost forever.

    They didn't just move apparatuses, they replaced treadmills with kebab stands and barbells and dumbbells with french fries.

    Naw, I would not demand a refund of subscription, I would just pack my things and go train to whomever opened up a gym like the old one.

    Here's why Retail WoW and Original WoW are two entirely different games:

    • 1 - Tank Threat is irrelevant
    • 2 - CC in content is irrelevant
    • 3 - LFR/LFD Tools
    • 4 - Class homogenization
    • 5 - Profession value
    • 6 - Durability of content
    • 7 - Existence of Heirloom and related items/mechanics
    • 8 - CRZ
    • 9 - Multiple "dificulty" levels on raids
    • 10 - Legendary items design and philosophy
    • 11. No spell ranks.
    • 12. Some original spells have been removed.
    • 13. Certain specs such as Survival Hunter (melee/ranged hybrid) no longer exist.
    • 14. Azeroth and Kalimdor changed after the Cataclysm and thus not the same original world.
    • 15. Outland is not the same with the original WoW 2.0 Outland.
    • 16. Ammo, quivers no longer exist.
    • 17. Talent trees no longer exist in their 2.0 form.
    • 18. There is no mana management.
    • 19. There is no aggro management.
    • 20. There are no class quests to learn spells.
    • 21. Levelling experience has been trivialized.
    • 22. No debuff limits in boss fights.
    • 23. No Community.
    • 24. Kung Fu Pandas ("Pandaren")
    • 25. Pokemon ("Battle pets")
    • Furthermore:

    • Class & combat:
    • Rogues had to craft their own poisons
    • Rogues could deactivate traps
    • Rogues had to train lockpicking by opening lockboxes around the world. Special gloves even existed to help you.
    • Stealth used to have levels and could be more or less effective. Items such as Nightscape Boots helped you being less detectable.
    • Hunter started without any pet and had a quest to teach them how to tame one, enchancing the link between them. Now they automatically start with one.
    • Hunter could use Eyes of the Beast to see through the eyes of its pet.
    • Hunter's pet needed to be feed and had an happiness bar to manage.
    • Hunters had 3 pets max. Each ones feel special. Now they carry a whole zoo in their bags.
    • Hunters couldn't attack in melee range with ranged weapons.
    • Bows and guns require ammunition you had to craft/buy and put in special ammo bags.
    • Warlocks had to get and carry soulshards in special bags.
    • Warlocks had a Detect Invisibility spell. Now it's integrated in the UI for everyone.
    • Priests had 2 unique racial abilities.
    • Mages have a Detect Magic spell and even a Khadgar's Unlocking (in beta) to crack lockboxes.
    • Enchanters and blacksmiths could craft various oils and grindstones to buff weapons.
    • Paladins could be played only by Alliance while Shamans were only for Horde.
    • Weapons required skills, including hand fighting. If you equipped a kind of weapon that you didn't know yet, you needed to use it a lot before doing max DPS. You also needed to see a weapon trainer first.
    • Speaking of trainers, you had to see a trainer in town to learn your new class skill/spell. Now it automatically spawn in your action bar as you level.
    • Some spells only worked on specific mobs, strengthening the lore. Paladin's exorcism for example was to be used against undead/demons while now it works the same on any mobs.
    • Magic/fire/frost resistance gears were useful against specific boss. Once again it strengthen the lore. Some mobs had fire resistance too and/or were weak against frost spells.
    • Classes were a lot more different: in term of rotation, but also some didn't have any interrupt, or any cc, or any group buff etc. In the same way, lots of class, especially pure DPS, didn't have a single heal. Now almost every class has the same set of interrupt/cc/heal/group buff.
    • Mana and health regenerate way slower, so you NEEDED to stop and eat/drink every few fights. Food and drink actually mater, and mana for DPS caster mattered too. When's the last time you bought normal food in game?
    • Spell levels (Holy Light 1, Holy Light 2 etc.) were useful to manage your mana.
    • Each classes has unique quests to unlock specific stuff: mounts for warlocks and paladins, postures for warriors, druid's forms, poisons and Certificate of Thievery for rogues etc.
    • Every classes had a extra equipement slot where you put your libram, sigil, throw, totem, idol, wand etc.
    • Original talent tree allowed hybrid class to freely mix healing, tanking and dps abilities (even if it wasn't often imba!).
    • World & quests:
    • Basic campfire required simple wood and a flint
    • Reagents (candle, feather, stone...) were needed to cast lots of utility spells. Some could be simply bought but others needed farming all around the world.
    • Goblin's AH were neutrals.
    • You need to travel to dungeons and battleground. Now you don't even need to know where they are.
    • Breathing bar was shorter and quests that required you to go under water didn't auto-give you water breathing buff like now.
    • There was no instance in the world: If people were in the same place they see and could help each others.
    • Quests objectives weren't displayed on your map.
    • Lots of group quests so you have to, well, make group while leveling.
    • Four Dragons of Nightmare were hidden around Azeroth and required raid-sized groups to be defeated.
    • Some of the most powerful spells were only learnable from rares Codex. They dropped from dungeons or raids but weren't BoP so you could trade/sale them.
    • Expansions or some raids used to be announced with huge pre-release events, like The Gates of Ahn'Qiraj, Dark Portal Opens or the Scourge Invasion. This was abandoned after Cataclysm.
    • One of the most epic quest-chain had a cook recipe reward. You needed a group to loot the mats from elite chimeras.
    • Professions:
    • Rare recipes required you to travel all over the world, either to find/buy them or to do special quests and even dungeons to unlock them. For example you needed a priest to mind-control a mini-boss to teach you Enchanted Elementium; now it's just a drop.
    • Some crafting recipes (Sulfuron hammer, engineer Jeeves/Chopper, some food...) required lots of work and mats. Now it's just a couple, rarely 3, max.
    • Sound logical, but you actually needed a fishpole to fish, a knife to skin, a hammer for blacksmith etc.
    • You had to level gathering before getting to the next zone. Now you can skin/gather in Draenor even if you're level 1.
    • You need the actual mats to be in your bag. Now you can have them in your bank and craft anything in the wild.
    • Alchemists and jewelcrafters needed alchemy lab to make some of the best flasks and reagents.
    • Some professions had sub-specialisations: Blacksmith could specialize in weapon-smith or armor-smith; Alchemist could become transmute, potion or flask masters; Engineers could focus on goblin or gnome recipes. (some of those specialisations still exist but aren't updated anymore)
    • Skinners could skin either normal leathers or scales (used for mail armor). Now only normal leather exist.
    • Some creatures (like Onyxia) required special tools to be skinned, which rewarded you with very rare scales to craft unique gear.
    • Blacksmiths and engineers could craft keys and bombs that you could buy to open lockboxes or doors.
    • Only enchanters could, well, disenchant items.
    • PvP:
    • World PvP ranks with specific rewards like gear but also repair discount or access to a special World Defense channel.
    • Alterac Valley lasted for hours with lots of PvE quests included, You could even summon bosses to fight for your side! (You can still technically do it but it's not relevant anymore)
    • You could loose honor if you killed civilians from opposite faction.
    • Flow of time:
    • Gold was scarce, it took a LOT of time to save up 10g. Now you can literally make thousand of gold in a day.
    • Mounts had different speeds. Now they all go to your max speed. Also summoning mount took twice as long (3 sec vs 1.5 sec now)
    • Leveling took way longer.
    • Mobs were harder to kill. While leveling you could pull a couple of them but more without CC often meant death. Same for rare mobs who required a group.
    • No instant mail, even to alts. Now there are mailboxes every 20 yards in every cities.
    • Misc:
    • You couldn't have Alliance and Horde chars on the same PvP server, which helped faction pride.
    • Keys existed. To open special doors you had first to find the key, ask a rogue to picklock it, have a blacksmith craft a key or use an engineer's charge.
    • Dungeons were real mazes that could take hours to complete. Now it's mostly 3 bosses separated by corridors that took less than 20 minutes to defeat.
    • Realm reputation mattered.
    • Being part of the Brew of the Month Club rewarded you with a monthly sample beer.
    • Some raids couldn't be entered directly, you first had to do some questline to unlock them. Now you can even kill a boss *before* knowing about his story (Isthar in HFC for example).


    Some people prefer the simpler, easier retail experience. For the real there's private servers.

  5. #30925
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tratra View Post
    ok Dr, here is your phd

    btw you do realize that wow's retention rate is low as well right? I mean 3 months into an xpac and numbers fall dramatically, 6 months in and the game is half its population at start.
    The Game is 12 years old

  6. #30926
    Quote Originally Posted by MetzenPlease View Post

    Some people prefer the simpler, easier retail experience. For the real there's private servers.
    Lmfao, just further proves how delusional the pro-legacy crowd is. "I'm SO challenged by this 2004 content even 12 years later and after doing it several times over!1!!"... XD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tratra View Post
    ok Dr, here is your phd

    btw you do realize that wow's retention rate is low as well right? I mean 3 months into an xpac and numbers fall dramatically, 6 months in and the game is half its population at start.
    Yep, and that's for NEW content as it grows older. Now imagine what it'd be like for content from 2004 that would also have a cost attached to it. There aren't exactly 5 million people clamoring for Legacy servers, signing petitions and buying T-shirts...

  7. #30927
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    Tanks still rely on threat, the mechanics is the same. "Irrelevant" is subjective.
    I guess the idea is when you spam one or two buttons, and the mob is on you like glue..... most people would consider that irrelevant. For example in vanilla if you want to tank 3 mobs with dps going crazy on each one separately, you have to do some pretty insane shit. While leveling I'd do stuff like go fury stance, pop sweeping strikes, do a whirl wind, then switch to defense, hit a revenge on the main target with a heroic strike, then pop a sunder on a second target before quickly taunting the third target which I inevitably lost aggro on due to a mage that just didn't feel like taking my target lol... just to hold all the mobs on you. That's not even factoring in shield block spam and disarming melee targets and such.

    On retail, last time I played.... all you did was hit thunder clap lol.

  8. #30928
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I guess the idea is when you spam one or two buttons, and the mob is on you like glue..... most people would consider that irrelevant. For example in vanilla if you want to tank 3 mobs with dps going crazy on each one separately, you have to do some pretty insane shit. While leveling I'd do stuff like go fury stance, pop sweeping strikes, do a whirl wind, then switch to defense, hit a revenge on the main target with a heroic strike, then pop a sunder on a second target before quickly taunting the third target which I inevitably lost aggro on due to a mage that just didn't feel like taking my target lol... just to hold all the mobs on you. That's not even factoring in shield block spam and disarming melee targets and such.

    On retail, last time I played.... all you did was hit thunder clap lol.
    You still have to mind pulls, keep aggro and battle actual MECHANICS whilst doing those things.
    If you only hit Thunder Clap as a Warrior on Live, you're being a very bad tank. No way around it.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2016-10-25 at 11:56 PM.

  9. #30929
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Lmfao, just further proves how delusional the pro-legacy crowd is. "I'm SO challenged by this 2004 content even 12 years later and after doing it several times over!1!!"... XD
    Let's compare 5 man content, in vanilla if you pulled extra packs you were probably dying. On retail you pull extra packs because you want to speed up the dungeon out of boredom and just aoe it all down.

    In vanilla you can die with 2 mobs on you... hell you can die with one mob on you. In retail you have 3 or 4 extra damage cool downs, a few stuns, as well as like 3 or 4 survival cool downs so it's impossible to die in the open world unless you go afk.

    On Nost, I was getting into world pvp battles all of the time. STV was insane, pretty much the entire place was a massive non-stop battle ground and I had points where I was literally dying every 5 minutes. On retail, world pvp is where you fly to some old world city and nobody is around for you to gank lol.

    On retail you could go over a year without a full set of epic gear easily. On retail, you can generally get a full set of epic gear a day or two after hitting max level.

    In vanilla, you had to learn your class, being a douche meant that you developed a bad reputation and had trouble getting into guilds or even pugs. On retail, you just hit the LFR button.

    In vanilla if you wanted to see the latest raid, you had to do it the proper way, by hitting up the earlier raids and doing the dungeons even prior to that. On retail, you hit max level, hit the "LFR" button and you get to see the latest raid within a couple of hours.

  10. #30930
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    You still have to mind pulls, keep aggro and battle actual MECHANICS whilst doing those things.
    If you only hit Thunder Clap as a Warrior on Live, you're being a very bad tank. No way around it.
    What he is saying is true, Aggro management was a HUGE deal in older expansions.
    It required more skill from DPS'ers and Tanks alike.

    Having threat addons was mandatory. But you probably already know that.

    When was the last time you saw a threat addon? xD

  11. #30931
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    You still have to mind pulls, keep aggro and battle actual MECHANICS whilst doing those things.
    If you only hit Thunder Clap as a Warrior on Live, you're being a very bad tank. No way around it.
    Any stance dancing involved? Any weapon swapping involved? How about this, if you hit your rotation perfectly on mobs on retail, do you ever experience the possibility of still losing aggro?

  12. #30932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    What is legion missing that "good" versions have?
    A plug in for rose tinted glassed

  13. #30933
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    What he is saying is true, Aggro management was a HUGE deal in older expansions.
    It required more skill from DPS'ers and Tanks alike.

    Having threat addons was mandatory.

    When was the last time you saw a threat addon? xD
    I haven't touched Legion, didn't even really touch WoD at all. The last expansion I really played was MoP.... I had a heroic (now mythic) geared mage for most of the expansion. The only time i ever really pulled aggro was in instances where the tank was like in blues. Even then, I generally just had to hit the invisibility button and the problem was instantly solved.

    IMO the whole idea of threat and aggro management has been killed off entirely.

  14. #30934
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Let's
    Mythic+ Dungeons say hello, they're more demanding above a certain level than anything Classic could ever offer up. Remember that Mythic+ is aimed at players that know their shit, whilst Classic dungeons back in the day often had utter n00bs go through them.

    Lol, "had to learn your class"... Sure, because that's not something people have to do today. Aimed shot weaved with auto-shot, SUCH intricate class mechanics! Today everyone performs at 90%+ percentile by pressing Thunder Clap! Amirite?? And LFR is the same as proper raiding, right? Let's forget the fact that even LFR has more mechanics to it than an entire raid tier of Classic had! And let's conveniently overlook the fact that raiding proper requires more from each individual participating in both performance of their class mechanics AND against boss mechanics than ever before. Even with addons, the very best players in the world don't one-shot shit.

    Classic had a lot of time hurdles/logistics hurdles, but fact of the matter is that if you want to raid PROPER today, it takes more in terms of actual performance than it ever did during Classic. I sure as hell prefer the system where challenge comes from the raid content rather than from preparations. Hell, in Legion there's some prep required ALONGSIDE actual challenge.

    You can keep pretending that Classic was/is this shining pinnacle of challenging gameplay, depth and intricacy if it makes you happy. Not everyone will buy into your hype though, your opinion that Classic is the best for this and that reason doesn't MAKE it the best for a fact, something many rabid pro-legacy people seem to forget as they hail themselves as "REAL" WoW players or some shit like that.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2016-10-26 at 12:11 AM.

  15. #30935
    Lmao people actually think retail is more mechanically indepth than vanilla holy shit. Just because the boss puts a bunch of circles on the ground doesn't mean it's hard yo sorry

  16. #30936
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I haven't touched Legion, didn't even really touch WoD at all. The last expansion I really played was MoP.... I had a heroic (now mythic) geared mage for most of the expansion. The only time i ever really pulled aggro was in instances where the tank was like in blues. Even then, I generally just had to hit the invisibility button and the problem was instantly solved.

    IMO the whole idea of threat and aggro management has been killed off entirely.
    Have been killed cause back then u would pull 3 or 4 max mobs. Now in order to do some content u need to pull anywhere from 10 to 22 mobs at the same time.

    Can u imagine doing all the above u say to each mob one by one?

  17. #30937
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Lmfao, just further proves how delusional the pro-legacy crowd is. "I'm SO challenged by this 2004 content even 12 years later and after doing it several times over!1!!"... XD
    Not everyone who is pro-legacy say that.
    Not everyone who is pro-legacy have done that content several times over.
    Challenge can come in many ways - for instance, time commitement required. Or logistics to be able to prepare and assemble 40 people for a raid, not only to be online at the same time, but to have completed several requirements to be actually helpful. Or coordination in having different people having a multiude of simple roles: Some people handling buffs, some dispelling, etc.

    Yes, rotations are more complex now, boss mechanics are more intricate. But if we go with your line of thought, is it really challenging? It's just mecanics you've done several times over in one way or another right? Get out of the fire. Move there at X point in time. Stop dps at X point in the fight. Taunt after X debuff.

    How many boss mechanics are there in EN that haven't been done previously in some similar way in the last 2 or 3 expansions?

    Is Dark Souls no longer challenging for people who already played it because it's old and they already played it? Really bad attempt at a point, imho.


    Also, while defenitely true that the extremes (Mythic raiding now vs raiding then. Rated pvp now vs world pvp or battlegrounds then) are much more challenging now, that doesn't apply to the whole game. The world content, especially while leveling but not only, is objectively harder: enemies are more powerful, your character is less powerful. You can claim it's a boring type of chalenging, but that completly depends on your personal opinion and taste. Some people want the difficulty of an RPG and MMO game more than they want fast-paced reactionary action.

    Legacy is a challenging game (in ways you might not enjoy). Legion is a fairly easy game WITH optional chalenging modes/difficulties. Both offer challenge in different ways, and please different tastes.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2016-10-26 at 12:16 AM.

  18. #30938
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Lol, "had to learn your class"... Sure, because that's not something people have to do today. Aimed shot weaved with auto-shot, SUCH intricate class mechanics! Today everyone performs at 90%+ percentile by pressing Thunder Clap! Amirite?? And LFR is the same as proper raiding, right? Let's forget the fact that even LFR has more mechanics to it than an entire raid tier of Classic had! And let's conveniently overlook the fact that raiding proper requires more from each individual participating in both performance of their class mechanics AND against boss mechanics than ever before. Even with addons, the very best players in the world don't one-shot shit.

    Classic had a lot of time hurdles/logistics hurdles, but fact of the matter is that if you want to raid PROPER today, it takes more in terms of actual performance than it ever did during Classic. I sure as hell prefer the system where challenge comes from the raid content rather than from preparations. Hell, in Legion there's some prep required ALONGSIDE actual challenge.

    You can keep pretending that Classic was/is this shining pinnacle of challenging gameplay, depth and intricacy if it makes you happy. Not everyone will buy into your hype though.
    LFR may have "more mechanics" than one tier of classic had but let's be honest, in classic, if you stand in the rain of fire on Gehennas, you will die. If the living bomb goes off in the group, a lot of people are dying. On retail in LFR, if you ignore the mechanics it's still extremely hard to die.

    I can't dispute the rotation thing, that is pretty much the one department that has improved. That being said, you really don't have to know your rotation unless you are on certain levels of raiding. For example you can do things wrong while leveling or in 5 mans and still win. Granted it just takes you a little longer. That being said in a lot of cases rotations still aren't that great. I remember disc priests for example that would just hit smite the whole fight and do great on the meters lol.

    As for class mechanics that are strict in vanilla... just look at AQ40 or Naxx..... like 1% of the player base ever even made it inside and killed a single boss.

    I'm not saying that Classic is the shining pinnacle for all, just for myself. I find it fun as hell. It's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not going to pretend I'm "enlightened" just because I like vanilla and others don't. Strictly speaking for myself, vanilla is fun as hell, I played it for a year on Nost and had fun the entire way through.

  19. #30939
    Quote Originally Posted by MetzenPlease View Post
    Lmao people actually think retail is more mechanically indepth than vanilla holy shit. Just because the boss puts a bunch of circles on the ground doesn't mean it's hard yo sorry
    If raid mechanics today are easy, Classic mechanics were braindead easy. Just how it is. I sure hope you've signed up to the top guilds with how easy you find performance of today, they always look for exceptional players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    LFR may have "more mechanics" than one tier of classic had but let's be honest, in classic, if you stand in the rain of fire on Gehennas, you will die. If the living bomb goes off in the group, a lot of people are dying. On retail in LFR, if you ignore the mechanics it's still extremely hard to die.

    I can't dispute the rotation thing, that is pretty much the one department that has improved. That being said, you really don't have to know your rotation unless you are on certain levels of raiding. For example you can do things wrong while leveling or in 5 mans and still win. Granted it just takes you a little longer. That being said in a lot of cases rotations still aren't that great. I remember disc priests for example that would just hit smite the whole fight and do great on the meters lol.

    As for class mechanics that are strict in vanilla... just look at AQ40 or Naxx..... like 1% of the player base ever even made it inside and killed a single boss.

    I'm not saying that Classic is the shining pinnacle for all, just for myself. I find it fun as hell. It's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not going to pretend I'm "enlightened" just because I like vanilla and others don't. Strictly speaking for myself, vanilla is fun as hell, I played it for a year on Nost and had fun the entire way through.
    And in Classic people would pad their raid teams with members that didn't have a clue, that struggled with moving out of a patch of fire and performing the most simple class mechanics while doing so and you'd STILL be able to down an endgame boss if you only had the time and got people to show up. Since there was no LFR back then and LFR isn't considered proper raiding today, a better comparison would be Classic raids to Mythic raiding, as it's the very highest tier of endgame content in WOW today.

    I'd love to see the progression guild that would down content whilst carrying 5 people that struggle with mechanics and class performance. Hell, even when boosting is a thing, they'll rarely bring more than 2 boosted players at a time. That's when they have done the boss fights numerous times and outgear it.

  20. #30940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    HELLO! MCFLY! Is someone home?
    Vanilla was made by a group of EQ players that wanted something more casual, and thats all what wow was from the start for the casuals.
    Modern WoW to Vanilla WoW is like Super Mario 3d World to Super Mario bros. Modern Mario games that will give you an invulnerability if you die too many times. Yes WoW is more casual compared to EverQuest, but WoW right now is like Hello Kitty Island adventures. It's not comparable anymore.

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