Why do casuals need gear?

[Sansnom]

Games are about overcoming challenges. Without challenge, there's no need for improvement of any kind.

True to an extend. But that is not the be all end all for playing. Some people do play for fun.

Besides, if you follow the mantra of what you said. Gear plays no part it. If a piece of improves a player character by 10% and the next challenge is made harder by 10%, then the net balance between the player toon and the challenge remains the same. So what has the gear done besides gating the content by requiring player to have beaten the previous content? The same effect can be achieved by other means.

The sad thing is, there are so many people playing this game but many/most of them are obsessed with trivial short-term goals and never work to accomplish anything greater, so we all pay the price for it, collectively.

I think you are being too general with that assertion. Unless you know them all. Yes. Some players are complaining. This not new. This has happened before. This is happening now. And it will happen again regardless what changes Blizzard make.

Players from the entire spectrum of the player base will complain. There always will be. They however, do not necessary represent the entire player base. Afterall, if they are enjoying the game, they have nothing to complain about so we never hear from them.

[Snuffleupagus]

You want to progress in WoW that is. It is a misconception that MMO must focus on group content. Even the name is Massive Multi Player Online game. It is not entirely about Team or Group.



Not really. EQ popularize this idea with raids and WoW took that idea into it is own. Earlier MMO did not focus on group gameplay. There really is no reason why this has to be case. Raiding was only a minor part of WoW. It is part of this reason why there is LFR and other ways to increase its participation.

The entire game is practically D&D, using the Trinity that became popular in normal play. EQ did it well, WoW took it further.

But at its core, it's D&D, a decidedly group activity.

Not all MMOs use D&D so heavily as the framework for their systems, but WoW does. If you don't like it, play something else. Giving your money to a company for access to a game that you don't enjoy is beyond asinine.

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THAT would be bullshit. I play it to RP with friends, hunt achievements, play the AH, get transmog gear, do pet battles, and collect mounts. I have not PvP'd since TBC and have not raided since ICC was current. Being casual has nothing to do with worshiping the opinions of elitist asshats.

Demanding the same rewards that more hardcore (lol) players get pretty much confirms that you're following the flock.

If this wasn't the case, the most common threads would be about wanting additional rewards instead of the same as what others get.

[-Joker-]

Demanding the same rewards that more hardcore (lol) players get pretty much confirms that you're following the flock.

If this wasn't the case, the most common threads would be about wanting additional rewards instead of the same as what others get.

I'm not "demanding" anything. My Legendary fell in the open world. My "raid" time is LFR. My gear is sufficient for what I need it for. People who demand Mythic rewards without playing mythic are entitled shitheads. That said, there is nothing wrong with a lower ilvl recolor being easy to get. Every player needs gear, but casuals (at least those I know) are not looking for top 5% raid guild quality gear. If 895 is the top end raider, there's no reason why 865 gear should offend non-casuals. It is our continued subscriptions, while hardcore players are unsubbed, that pays for the content THEY get to enjoy. Pretty sure this was the thinking that gave us Treasure chests with gear on Timeless Isle, and Broken Isles.

[therealbowser]

And how was it personal? People who play a game they don't enjoy confuse me. You'll give a company money to not enjoy yourself?

Even worse are the people that don't play and think they have grand ideas on how to fix something that isn't broken. If you want to progress in an MMO, you participate in group content. Simple.

Anything else is turning the game into a singleplayer game with a sub fee.

You're taking it personally because you're taking a casual discussion about the game and all but turning it into personal attacks on me. "If you don't like a game quit." Buddy, this isn't an acute issue to me. I'm explaining it from a business standpoint; Blizzard logically should keep its customers interested or at least invested in the long term or they will get bored and quit. While that's a perfectly fine solution for players, it's not necessarily healthy for the game and certainly not in Blizzard's best interests.

If you want to make this about me, then trust me, I take breaks from this game when I am tired of it. But you're missing the point. Although this issue doesn't bother me as much as it does others, petty little problems similar to this one hold back what could be the best expansion to date. And that's just disappointing. People want to love Legion, but there's little things that ruin the experience.

Either way, I agree that group content is how progression should be done -- further adding to the irony of you switching the conversation to be about me, when I am simply discussing it. That said, I would appreciate if there was a more diverse character progression system available for alternative characters. Playing until you get the gear you want in LFR can take weeks, again... not long enough to keep casual players interested. Solo content is fine as is, but if there were things outside of that to extend the game that would be ideal.

Though, perhaps the legendary upgrade quests will provide that... provided, of course, the RNG of the legendary items is even fixed to begin with. And that's a whole new can of worms.

In short, I don't think solo content should give you endgame raid level mega gear. I'm not sure why you think we are disagreeing on that point.

[Sansnom]

The entire game is practically D&D, using the Trinity that became popular in normal play. EQ did it well, WoW took it further.

But at its core, it's D&D, a decidedly group activity.

Well, if it is suppose to be D&D at its core, they have done a pretty bad job of translating it to WoW. Sure, they have taken element from D&D, WoW to me is closer to Diablo than to D&D.

Not all MMOs use D&D so heavily as the framework for their systems, but WoW does. If you don't like it, play something else. Giving your money to a company for access to a game that you don't enjoy is beyond asinine.

Well, that goes for anyone. Including you.

[Snuffleupagus]

Well, if it is suppose to be D&D at its core, they have done a pretty bad job of translating it to WoW. Sure, they have taken element from D&D, WoW to me is closer to Diablo than to D&D.

D&D is fundamentally a group going on an adventure and working together to take down an objective. While the medium of a computer changes elements and automates a lot, it's not actually that different.

Well, that goes for anyone. Including you.

It sure does. I enjoy the game in its current state, ergo I keep playing.

[Nurvus]

I think you already know that what you said is bullshit, but I guess I'll bite anyways.

WoW is a RPG at its core, so you got to have some sort of character progression.
So saying you don't need gear is simply wrong.
You need to be able to raise your power, progress you character.

I still can't wrap my head around why people care about other peoples gear or are jealous because of it.

WoW is an MMO where you cooperate or compete, or compete while cooperating.
In such an environment, if I know what I'm doing and put a certain amount of effort into obtaining something, it's understandable that I expect others will need to put roughly the same effort to obtain the same.
If you can't wrap your head around this simple notion, I don't think MMOs are worth discussing with you.

[Snuffleupagus]

You're taking it personally because you're taking a casual discussion about the game and all but turning it into personal attacks on me. "If you don't like a game quit." Buddy, this isn't an acute issue to me. I'm explaining it from a business standpoint; Blizzard logically should keep its customers interested or at least invested in the long term or they will get bored and quit. While that's a perfectly fine solution for players, it's not necessarily healthy for the game and certainly not in Blizzard's best interests.

If you want to make this about me, then trust me, I take breaks from this game when I am tired of it. But you're missing the point. Although this issue doesn't bother me as much as it does others, petty little problems similar to this one hold back what could be the best expansion to date. And that's just disappointing. People want to love Legion, but there's little things that ruin the experience.

Either way, I agree that group content is how progression should be done -- further adding to the irony of you switching the conversation to be about me, when I am simply discussing it. That said, I would appreciate if there was a more diverse character progression system available for alternative characters. Playing until you get the gear you want in LFR can take weeks, again... not long enough to keep casual players interested. Solo content is fine as is, but if there were things outside of that to extend the game that would be ideal.

Though, perhaps the legendary upgrade quests will provide that... provided, of course, the RNG of the legendary items is even fixed to begin with. And that's a whole new can of worms.

In short, I don't think solo content should give you endgame raid level mega gear. I'm not sure why you think we are disagreeing on that point.

Methinks you need to grow thicker skin. Me saying "if you don't like the game, don't play" is a general statement to anyone who thinks the game is making (supposedly) critical mistakes that will lose lots of money.

[Deleted]

THAT would be bullshit. I play it to RP with friends, hunt achievements, play the AH, get transmog gear, do pet battles, and collect mounts. I have not PvP'd since TBC and have not raided since ICC was current. Being casual has nothing to do with worshiping the opinions of elitist asshats.

That is completely irrelevant. Why did you choose this MMO and not another more casual friendly ones, like SWTOR or GW2 for example?

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Unless you have evidence to prove it, I tend to disagree. If anything, I would say casuals do not generally care what others are doing. They are interested in what they themselves are doing.

WoW is primary a loot grind game. That loot can be anything. Mounts. Pets. Gear, principlely. Remove the loot, no matter how casual the player, the grind will become pointless because there is no meaningful reward.

I pretty confident that if loot were removed from raids and the only reward is shiny title. Many people would not step foot in it and those that do, they would stop once that title is acquire because there is not reason to enter the raid on a regular basis. Now if raiders would do stop running content that has no interesting rewards, why wouldn't casuals do the same?

Both of you made the mistake of confusing why you play this game with what you do in this game. No, why do you play this MMO specifically?

[Plutarch78]

Why is this thread still not locked??

[PassingBy]

Why would you even play this game if you don't do instanced PVE or PVP?

It sucks outside of that.
It is built to do those things.

Unless you are an RPG player and enjoy the story and lore, but then you're playing on an RPG server, and gear is not an issue for you anyways.

Blizz have introduced a good system for those that want to play the game, but don't want to be a part of the guild/engage with a lot of ppl - mythic+.
They are introducing a big 5-man dungeon with today's patch.

What else do you want?

[Snuffleupagus]

I'm not "demanding" anything. My Legendary fell in the open world. My "raid" time is LFR. My gear is sufficient for what I need it for. People who demand Mythic rewards without playing mythic are entitled shitheads. That said, there is nothing wrong with a lower ilvl recolor being easy to get. Every player needs gear, but casuals (at least those I know) are not looking for top 5% raid guild quality gear. If 895 is the top end raider, there's no reason why 865 gear should offend non-casuals. It is our continued subscriptions, while hardcore players are unsubbed, that pays for the content THEY get to enjoy. Pretty sure this was the thinking that gave us Treasure chests with gear on Timeless Isle, and Broken Isles.

Because the game is segmented into tiers of difficulty.

Realistically, casual gearing should stop at 835, 850 if you put some time into crafting. You get ongoing upgrades with Obliterum and new raid tiers.

Instead it's petulant demands that Heroic and Normal raids become devalued to meet your desire to have the same rewards.

[Sansnom]

Both of you made the mistake of confusing why you play this game with what you do in this game. No, why do you play this MMO specifically?

Thank you for telling me I made a mistake. Care to enlighten me more specifically what that is.

[-Joker-]

That is completely irrelevant. Why did you choose this MMO and not another more casual friendly ones, like SWTOR or GW2 for example?

I'd never played an MMO prior to WoW. I started playing in TBC as a hunter, and eventually began role-playing as a Druid. I've always had a thing for Dungeons and Dragons, and this was the first game that ever really brought that to life for me. Unlike most gamers, I play one game, and not several (or even hundreds). I found something I enjoy and while I've tried others since then, nothing holds my interest or invigorates me like WoW. Even without raiding and pvp, I still enjoy every moment in the game. At least until I try to group with random strangers. There's always that one guy who has to shout at everyone, and insult them for not eating/sleeping/breathing the game and being maxxed with BiS gear. That's why I am in the guild I am in now. They have several levels of raiders, and I fit in with other casuals like myself.

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Because the game is segmented into tiers of difficulty.

Realistically, casual gearing should stop at 835, 850 if you put some time into crafting. You get ongoing upgrades with Obliterum and new raid tiers.

Instead it's petulant demands that Heroic and Normal raids become devalued to meet your desire to have the same rewards.

I agree that welfare epics should be a lower ilvl, and should in fact be the bare basic minimum needed to get into a Heroic. This way, if they want to put in the effort to get geared to go into Mythic, there's not such an extreme curve to learn or catch-up. I know I don't have a lot of hours in a week to spend watching YouTube to learn a fight, so I avoid difficult raiding where players expect results. LFR on the other hand is just about my speed and lets me raid on my own schedule.

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Why would you even play this game if you don't do instanced PVE or PVP?

Quests
Storylines
achievements
mounts
pets
transmogs
Role-playing
play the AH

There is so much more to this game than raiding and arenas. It's the casuals who enjoy everything else who stay subbed and their constant flow of cash (unlike those who unsub each tier until the next one) is what pays for the new content, including the stuff less than 5% of the playerbase actually sees.

You're welcome.

[PassingBy]

Quests
Storylines
achievements
mounts
pets
transmogs
Role-playing
play the AH

There is so much more to this game than raiding and arenas. It's the casuals who enjoy everything else who stay subbed and their constant flow of cash (unlike those who unsub each tier until the next one) is what pays for the new content, including the stuff less than 5% of the playerbase actually sees.

You're welcome.

Quests - a significant part of them is inside the instanced group content, and before blizz had the whole "solo" bullshit in mind some of the world quests were also group. And you don't need gear, better than the ~840-850 you get from WQ/crafting/daily chest/legendary drops to do them.
Storylines - much of the storylines are partially behind group play too, and without it the storyline you get is still incomplete (and i mentioned the lore and RP aspect in my post tvm). And the non group part also doesn't need the gear to be done.
Achievements - a significant part of those are dungeon, raid or PVP related. And those that are not gated behind doing the content of proper difficulty doesn't actually require gear.
Mounts - some of them are raid/dungeon/pvp related. The ones which are not - don't require you to be higher than 850 ilvl.
Pets - have no idea never played this stupid minigame, but I guess it still doesn't need gear, but rather requires specific rare pets to be levelled and used to battle other pets. And the more time you invest, and the harder battles you win - the better pets you get. No one is expecting a raider to get the best most powerful max level pets from raiding, right? You have to actually do pet battles to get them?
Transmogs - for the ones, for which you need actual high end gear you also need high end groups and completing the content. For running old raids 850 ilvl is more than enough.
Role-playing - have no idea, but I am quite sure that gear is not the deciding factor there, but actually interacting with people and grouping up with them is. So you still need to do group content to enjoy roleplaying, it is just different kind of group content.
AH - you don't need any gear to play the AH, you don't even need a max level character for that. Also if you are really good at the AH you can get the BoE and crafted gear from the AH, which is quite nice.

[Deleted]

Quests
Storylines
achievements
mounts
pets
transmogs
Role-playing
play the AH

There is so much more to this game than raiding and arenas. It's the casuals who enjoy everything else who stay subbed and their constant flow of cash (unlike those who unsub each tier until the next one) is what pays for the new content, including the stuff less than 5% of the playerbase actually sees.

You're welcome.

Isn't it incredibly wrong to call everyone who does "everything else" casuals?

I mean.. There are some pretty hardcore achievers, pet battlers, mount collectors, roleplayers and AH moneylords out there who pretty much never step into a current tier mythic raid, if any. They are definitely not casual by any fig of imagination. Being a hardcore or casual does not always portray skill or the segment you play, but rather how much you invest and dedicate to something, even saying that doesnt really tell what hardcore is.

But please dont make it up that all raiders must be hardcore and pet battlers are casuals. There are plenty of sunday casual raiders and hardcore pet collectors/battlers.

[shadowmatrix]

Why do casuals need gear?
To have something to aim for.

Why do they need current mythic gear?
So future patches can include harder content.

But is that fair to the mythic raiders?
Is it fair that players just now beating mythic Nightmare are getting the same gear as the players who actually competed for world first?

Why don't they do group content?
They do, if they didn't the que times would be measured in hours rather then minutes.

why do casuals play the game?
Because they have fun.

[Deleted]

D&D is fundamentally a group going on an adventure and working together to take down an objective. While the medium of a computer changes elements and automates a lot, it's not actually that different.



It sure does. I enjoy the game in its current state, ergo I keep playing.

Yeah but an adventure is a loose term. A game master in D&D than made you only go from point A to point B, to endlessly fight ennemies and dragons was a bad game master. You actually had to create situations and dialogue that could allow to impersonate your character and make choices on what to do, how to respond, how to solve an enigma and interact with other players other than "yeah lets do this boss following this rigid pattern to get our loot"

WoW is much more hack n slashy than role playing. I don't consider playing a class in the game as roleplay given that it still doesn't give you any player agency and choices or dialogue to make in the story with any consequence.

[Panta]

We need gear to make the self-entitled hardcore players (as someone above mentioned, real hardcore players don't give a shit about what other people do) upset about what we do with the high level gear we have. There are very few things in the game better or funnier than make other people upset about what we do with our free time, or what we do for having fun.

[Osmeric]

Because the game is segmented into tiers of difficulty.

Realistically, casual gearing should stop at 835, 850 if you put some time into crafting. You get ongoing upgrades with Obliterum and new raid tiers.

Instead it's petulant demands that Heroic and Normal raids become devalued to meet your desire to have the same rewards.

Individuals demanding something are petulant.

Large swaths of the player population acting in response to something, on the other hand, are a boundary condition developers cannot ignore.

It's like voting. An individual voter demanding candidate X be president is just adorably dense. The population of voters as a whole, on the other hand, determine the outcome of the election.

It's also stupid to criticize someone who is making a demographic argument for wanting something personally.