Karazhan Difficulty and Length

[FelPlague]

Sure they can progress, but they don't need to do much in order to achieve that. This content is designed with the same principle of Mythic + in mind, being that players who have less time, or less skill, can progress on something that's actually meaningful, with friends as a raid would allow, but with fewer people.

While it's not cutting edge, it's surely more difficult than LFR Xavius is, and probably a lot more rewarding, and that goes for raiders too. It gives a decent ilvl, and some really nice drops that are worth doing for them.

Idiot.

yes because possibility at 865 gear for 4 hours of hard work, with the other 4 hours giving 850 gear is totally worth it to a heroic/mythic raider... i did a full clear, 4 hours, not a single peice i could use out of that place dropped, there is only 1 item that is useful for me from that place and its the belt off maiden, and its only a +5 ilvl boost
i do agree with what your saying though, but most heroic or mythic raiders wont find use in karazhan

[Jastall]

Did it today with a guild group, went in blind. We're mostly Heroic raiders.

Took us a bit more than 3 hours. Most bosses aren't too hard, we mostly wiped on Maiden and Curator. The latter is the most difficult boss in the place IMO, once you kill it the rest falls over fairly fast.

It's definitely a fair bit harder than baseline Mythics, and unlike M+ the difficulty is in the bosses, not the trash. I'd say the level of personal responsability is about the level of a Heroic raid personally, which was right up my alley.

[FelPlague]

How many times do you think people are going to run this place?

First will be last for many players.

im going to have to run it atleast 1 more time, to do the rest of the quests (whever they are, i dident get them)
then im just gunna join groups, go to attumen 2nd, kill him then leave, and do that every week till i get the mount

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Did it today with a guild group, went in blind. We're mostly Heroic raiders.

Took us a bit more than 3 hours. Most bosses aren't too hard, we mostly wiped on Maiden and Curator. The latter is the most difficult boss in the place IMO, once you kill it the rest falls over fairly fast.

It's definitely a fair bit harder than baseline Mythics, and unlike M+ the difficulty is in the bosses, not the trash. I'd say the level of personal responsability is about the level of a Heroic raid personally, which was right up my alley.

i only found maiden hard when people dident know what to do, became super easy after that, curator was a massive dificulty though, but mostly a dps race, i think the last and 2nd last boss are the hardest though

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Don't forget, it's a weekly lock out so You could do it over a few days in 30 minute runs

cept you cant, if you leave then come back the next day you have to start fresh

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Even BC heroics at their worst never took me three hours. The first times through. I recall spending no more than maybe an hour or so in a single heroic in BC. And that wasn't by the point when I was doing SSC/TK and outgeared the places...that was when I was still wearing blues and a few epics from Karazhan (funny enough).

People are saying they're outgearing the place by 25 ilvl and STILL taking 2-3 hours. First time through or not, that's not a freaking excuse. It's a DUNGEON. One tank, one healer, three DPS. That's taking those people as long as I'd spend clearing BLACK TEMPLE. A 25-man raid.

20% of the necessary people should not be taking 200% more time to clear something. That's hideous design that should be left to the boneheads that want legacy servers. In today's WoW populous, this dungeon's going to lead to The Great Exodus 2.0.

And sure. By then, it'll be easier to clear. Your load times to get in will be instantaneous because server traffic will be next to nothing again. Hooray?

so a 5 man raid is not allowed to be a thing, and makes blizzard shitty?
also karazhan is not required, so its not going to make a mass quit happen, fuck off

[Fayolynn]

Don't forget, it's a weekly lock out so You could do it over a few days in 30 minute runs

My group went back in tonight to clear the last 3 bosses only to find a fresh instance. :|

[Morbownz]

"Yay they're doing a long dungeon again!"

And now everyone is complaining.

Just another example of people eating all the 'member berries and thinking bad, old, ideas are great and should be brought back.

Yep, because the only solution to dungeons being too short (15 minutes like in WoD) is to make them last 2 hours +, if people don't like that it proves they just don't know what they want!!!

[Mad_Murdock]

cept you cant, if you leave then come back the next day you have to start fresh

That sounds like a bug. Ion said in the interview that they expected some groups might break it up and do it over the course of a couple of nights.

Eitherway, I expect some nerfs to be applied before Thanksgiving. I haven't even run it yet, but if the week 2&3 numbers show it's taking groups too long to clear, nerfs will come flying

[JakeCC]

You seem to forget the average WoW player doesn't care about the difficulty, they care about the effort to reward ratio.

If effort > reward, they won't like it.

If effort =< reward, they'll flock to it.

And somehow I'm the idiot? I mean, it's not like I played the game for nearly a decade and know how the average WoW player thinks or anything. Clearly this expansion changed the mindsets of the majority of players who asked for things (and got, for the better of the game in most cases) to make the game feel less like a job and more like a game they can pick up a couple of hours or so a week and put back down to live their lives. Yes, how did I not factor that sudden drastic swing in player mentality into my observations and comments? Silly me, egg's on my face!

I don't suggest saying that word again to someone unless you're looking in a mirror.

It's not designed for what you consider an average player... It's designed with the casual player in mind. The item level disparity between it and Looking For Raid is high enough that it makes it more than worth the effort for those who are wanting decent upgrades, and aren't just relying on praying to RNGesus in LFR for it to proc higher. Sure, some people are going to want to do the easier content, and they won't get rewards that are equal to those who want to put a bit more effort than standing around while the other 24 people kill the boss.

They can still pick up the game for a couple of hours, and complete the attunement for Kara one week, and then progress through it the next week without it being too big of a strain on their schedules.

I've been playing this game for well over a decade, so that's certainly longer than you, and it's easy to see that this content is perfectly fine as it is. As the people who will do it, are doing it. The people who you call the majority of players are going to stay in LFR, and get the same loot, and that's perfectly fine. They don't deserve more if they don't play more.

[FelPlague]

That sounds like a bug. Ion said in the interview that they expected some groups might break it up and do it over the course of a couple of nights.

Eitherway, I expect some nerfs to be applied before Thanksgiving. I haven't even run it yet, but if the week 2&3 numbers show it's taking groups too long to clear, nerfs will come flying

ive had it happen to me, and a few people mention it aswell

[Astronom]

That sounds like a bug. Ion said in the interview that they expected some groups might break it up and do it over the course of a couple of nights.

Back in WoD I noticed that when pugging Mythic dungeons if everyone left the instance (to summon, repair, go to Trade to find replacements, etc) then the dungeon reset and you had to start fresh. There seemed to be no way for even the leader to recover the previous instance lock. I just figured there had to be a way and we where missing it. Besides, regular mythic dungeons are fairly short and straightforward enough that even average players can usually finish them one session (and mythic+ dungeons are expressly designed to be finished fast anyhow).

However it looks like this is how Blizzard designed Mythic dungeons to work. You have to complete them in a single session or they reset. If Ion did say Blizzard intended for groups to do Kara dungeon over a couple of nights, then it looks like this is an inadvertent and unwanted design feature. You think they would have noticed this in the 1 year or more mythic dungeons have been out, but that's the way it goes sometimes with games design.

If this is true I don't think I'll be joining any Kara pugs anytime soon. Difficult content makes pugs bad tempered to start with, add in the pressure of having to complete it in a single session and they could get positively toxic.

[antelope591]

Took my group close to 2 hours....to be honest it was far harder than I expected it to be. Saying that, we did pretty much YOLO all the bosses without any prior research, however this is an 870+ group who didn't really need anything from the instance and all of us clear M +10's pretty easily on a weekly basis. Its definitely not a place you want to pug unless you're expecting a ton of wipes or already overgear it. I think the ilvl drops vs. difficulty ratio is actually pretty bad considering heroic EN is pretty much a joke and drops better gear. It was definitely a fun instance but 850 groups are not gonna have a good time in here.

[freqs]

I'm a semi-hardcore player trying to be more casual (by playing less hours). It took my PUG group 3 hours from start to completion. Everyone was 865+. Do I see myself rerunning this every week for gear? Probably not cause it just takes too damn long and its better to spend the time I would have spent on this dungeon on something else (mythic+, Heroic EN, etc).

I like the EN type of raiding where most of the encounter isn't on trash/finding the path to the next boss.

[Ærion]

I don't think they will nerf it. It is supposed to be a level beyond normal mythics. They have stated numerous times that they want this to be a 5 man raid.

In that case a normal and a heroic version should be added. Every raid has those, and if this is treated as a raid they should act accordingly.

Me, I'll stay the hell away from it until it's tuned properly. Up the ilvl on drops, split it into 30-minute chunks, add the same res rules like raids (res at last boss killed), or tune it so that 840s can do it normally without spending hours. Otherwise I don't see this as more than a do-once-then-forget novelty.

Maybe come back next expansion to farm the (likely 0.001% drop) mounts.

[alex wolf]

is there a way to stop the instance from resetting between days?

[Deleted]

My group went back in tonight to clear the last 3 bosses only to find a fresh instance. :|

The solution to this is entering on your own, get all the people in then within the minute before being kicked out, reinvite everyone back. Enjoy the rest of Kara !

I repeat; To re enter your saved Karazhan ID, you need to enter the instance ungrouped

[Dch48]

From the people in my guild who have gone there, they say it's too hard to actually be fun and they say they will never go back. Expect nerfs in the near future.

[Gilthresa]

From the people in my guild who have gone there, they say it's too hard to actually be fun and they say they will never go back. Expect nerfs in the near future.

I think your guild mates should stop being bad.

[Teranzil]

Cleared it yesterday, it took several hours and many wipes. Our tank and healer were slightly under geared though. I can honestly say it's the most fun I've had in years. The music, the nostalgia, combined with modern mechanics was such a treat. I wouldn't say it's too hard but it can certainly be unforgiving, but I think that is one of the things that makes it so good. Kudos to Blizz Imo

[Deathknightish]

This thread just shows that Blizzard can't win no matter what they do.

Either content is too easy and people complain, or it's too hard and people complain.

I love that it's difficult personally. Only complaint I have is that the iLevel on items in there maaaaay be just a tiny bit too low for the challenge presented. It should be up there with heroic emerald nightmare from the first boss and go up to like 870 on the final boss.

[Dch48]

I think your guild mates should stop being bad.

They aren't. They finished it but said they would never do it again because it just wasn't fun. These are the top players in the guild who all completely finished the Proving Grounds as a requirement to join the progression raid team. They are 7/7 in Heroic Nightmare and are currently doing Mythic. If they say it's too hard and no fun, I know that I and the other members of the casual raid team who are only 2/7 in Heroic Nightmare will really dislike it. Blizzard will see people struggling and nerf it in the near future. I have no doubt of this.

[Caustic]

I solo que'd and most of the time had players in the 850 ilvl avg. With the expected wipes due to learning I still loved every bit of the new Kara, yes even the long run backs even tho a pain had me feeling like it was an epic dungeon and pushed me to be better. The atmosphere was tremendous especially the last few bosses and the very last boss was a fun experience. Viz'aduum felt like it was appropriate for the final boss of a dungeon. My only complaint would be the final boss loot felt underwhelming for my spec given the effort for the dungeon.

Overall I would rate the new Kara a 9/10.