No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Coffeexbean]

That only depends on if you count ganking as world PvP, but no that´s not world PVP that's just griefing players who aren't interested in a fight right now of their time.

What create real world PvP are when there are something in the world of interest for both parts and both parts are willing to fight over. That's what made most of my memorable world PVP that was awesome for all parts.

This has always been true since BC. it was the towers around auchindoun that a faction needed to control to gain a great buff in the zone. They were usually a good mix of flying and ground PvP since you could choose to take them over by camping at the base or flying up to the top. There were many awesome fights when one faction sat in top and one at the base of a tower and both sides knew they had to fight over it to get anywhere.

Second time this happened, I don't remember what was the active expansion but it was when CRZ was enabled, it really triggered lots of world PvP over things that previously could be peacefully camped by the dominant faction on each realm. For instance the players farming for Timelost-Protodrake in northrend got to experience some awesome world PvP battles over the best camp spots along the patrol routes.(ironically, world PvP over a flying mount)

Third and last time we saw any awesome world PvP in WoW was in MoP, and this is active still today. The spawn locations for the 5 warbringer rarespawns that can drop three different mounts.
Ever since then rare spawns have been multitag-able and uninteresting. There haven't been anything else that caused competition and conflicts in the outdoors to spur great PvP. There has only been... ganking.

Griefing is pvp. The act of one player killing another is player vs player no matter how unfair you might think it is. You have the choice of being on a pve realm though. For the record I dont grief but if I see you and I think I have an upper hand of course Im gonna kill you atleast once unless Im in a rush.

[Zalamander]

Um, that's how most world PVP starts ya know? You gank players who don't want to PVP until they get fed up and call other players for help, then they gank other innocent players as collateral damage, and they too join in on the action for some revenge. Eventually it evolves into a big war. Having no flight forces people into the conflict since there's no easy way to escape it.

No, this simply almost never happen. why would some one who doesn't even want to fight care about that in the first place. But to the point. again you are greatly mistaken. Flying makes no difference here either. its just as easy to ress and mount a ground mount and get away from the situation. It doesn't make any difference if its a flying mount. Bro... do you even think?

Just warning you a bit as well, all these old arguments against flying you bring up has already been killed and buried several times in this thread and elsewhere.
World PvP does NOT ever get worse by flying. This simplified easy to believe answer stems from back when flying was introduced in BC and less PvP happened in the world. Some less intelligent players started blaming flying even tho it was clear that the real reason was arena and battlegrounds where PVP was rewarding.

No they wouldn't, people who don't want to fight would just zoom past on their flying mounts and fly straight towards the raid entrance, and the other side can't do anything to stop it. Maybe not in Black Rock mountain, but let's take open air entrances like Zul'Gurub or the AQ entrances for instance. Back in vanilla there was ton of world PVP happening at those entrances, you couldn't have the same thing happen with flight.

If you were a 100% pacifist PVE "avoid PVP at all costs" type you would corpse run into the instance/raid regardless no matter how many deaths you took, but most guilds had at least some pride, and when faced with corpse running and fighting back most would choose to fight back. Now with flight it's just zoom zoom zoom on flying mounts and zero risk of getting ganked.

These thing just can't happen now a days since faction balance of realm are almost never near even. On my realm group where alliance is very dominant. about 80% vs horde 20% I mostly feel sorry for the hordes who try to raid...

I clearly remember these gank fests raid vs raid that some times happened at rain entrances indeed. But I hardly call them pride or fun world PvP. They were usually just a result from a few gankers wanting to be assholes at the entrance forcing an entire raid out to stomp them then continues with their raid. There was no pride in it. only a few idiots who did something stupid for no reason.

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Griefing is pvp. The act of one player killing another is player vs player no matter how unfair you might think it is. You have the choice of being on a pve realm though. For the record I dont grief but if I see you and I think I have an upper hand of course Im gonna kill you atleast once unless Im in a rush.

And after you killed my helpless healer that couldn't do anything about it. do you feel proud of your self. Have you accomplished something great? was it hard? are you strong now? or do you simply hope you made me annoyed or sad and you can feel "great joy" over that? sad to tell you I just /shrug, ress and move on with my business.

This kind of "world PvP" fill no purpose in the game, its just an excuse for losers to feel confident. Deal with it and move on.

[Malackai]

World PVP more awesome with flight...are you serious? You gank once and people immediately fly up afterwards, or once in a while you get swooped down. That's it. World PVP with flight just ends up with a bunch of people safely in the air on their flying mounts waiting for whatever opportunity to arise.

Actual PVP happens when everyone is grounded and there's no easy way to avoid combat.



If you consider this "awesome" world PVP, then I have to really shake my head. They pale in comparison to vanilla when entire guilds were killing each other senseless over world bosses like Azuregos or the Emerald Dream dragons. Or the entrance at Black Rock mountain littered with bodies as people mass murdered each other to prevent the other side from doing MC or BWL.

None of this is possible with flight anymore. Nowadays people just zoom into Raid portals with their flying mounts. People just drop onto mobs or nodes and seconds later just pop right back into the air.

So wait actual doing mutual PVP by doing the pvp objects and fighting over so said object has you shake your head?
But ganking at Raid entrances you know PVE objects and wasting peoples time that are actually trying to raid and not participate in PVP it somehow "awsome pvp"

Ill give you the world bosses tho I can agree with that at least a bit tho most of it was same faction grieving back then.

I think you might have some things mixed up there >_>

I absolutely loathed the gankfests at the Raid entrances and so did many raid leaders that where trying to get they people setup for a raid session.

[Deleted]

The thread was started when it was announced what would happen for 7.0 aka no flight. The mods have decided this is the thread dedicated to discussing flight in Legion.

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Ground mount usage on vanilla maps was common for me but now that they are gone because of Cataclysm I do not see the point. I just use a flying mount in older areas to be honest. Maps in WoW went from being ground mount friendly to being designed as "targeted exploration" aka mazes. Boring, boring, and boring.

Yes, before Cata, Classic zones were very ground-mount friendly. You did not had much other options to get around, of course, but I would surely like no-flying more if WoD and Legion had similarly designed zones. Unfortunately, they are very different and feel very artificial. I constantly have the feeling of being in a dungeon, not in a free world.

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So wait actual doing mutual PVP by doing the pvp objects and fighting over so said object has you shake your head?
But ganking at Raid entrances you know PVE objects and wasting peoples time that are actually trying to raid and not participate in PVP it somehow "awsome pvp"

Ill give you the world bosses tho I can agree with that at least a bit tho most of it was same faction grieving back then.

I think you might have some things mixed up there >_>

I absolutely loathed the gankfests at the Raid entrances and so did many raid leaders that where trying to get they people setup for a raid session.

Also this. People who gather for a PvE activity don't automatically commit to PvP. Playing on a PvP server, this is always a risk, but honestly, this is usually nothing but a waste of time. Open world PvP is totally pointless, when your important rewards all come from instanced PvP - or from special world quests now, which at least somehow fit the open PvP concept, while gathering at summoning stones does not. See, Neverwinter had an interesting guild vs. guild concept - combining pvp and pve - where your success in the pvp part unlocked extra content in the following dungeons. But PvP at summoning stones did nothing except wasting time.

[corebit]

So wait actual doing mutual PVP by doing the pvp objects and fighting over so said object has you shake your head?
But ganking at Raid entrances you know PVE objects and wasting peoples time that are actually trying to raid and not participate in PVP it somehow "awsome pvp"

Ill give you the world bosses tho I can agree with that at least a bit tho most of it was same faction grieving back then.

I think you might have some things mixed up there >_>

I absolutely loathed the gankfests at the Raid entrances and so did many raid leaders that where trying to get they people setup for a raid session.

I am talking about the scale of world PVP there, not how awesome it is gank someone who doesn't like to PVP. But world PVP occurred regardless even in those places since the whole point of ganking you is to get you annoyed and hopefully come back at the aggressor with friends. Then after back and forth it would escalate to the point of a full-blown war.

The poster I am replying to implies that world PVP is even better with flight, I am objecting to it because world PVP has never been the same since TBC introduced flight. Even the sporadic bouts of world PVP in Hellfire Peninsula were mostly a bunch of guys waiting on their flying mounts on top of Honor Hold/thrallmar waiting for whoever has the upper hand to swoop in. Same with the Zangar/Auchindoun towers. Very little PVP happened compared the epicness that was vanilla.

Also this. People who gather for a PvE activity don't automatically commit to PvP.

The point is the source of most world PVP comes from angering/annoying those players who are busy with their PVE activity, and incite them to return the gank favor.

Or did you think those Tarren Mill/Southshore or Stranglethorn episodes came purely from willing participants?

[Deleted]

I am talking about the scale of world PVP there, not how awesome it is gank someone who doesn't like to PVP. But world PVP occurred regardless even in those places since the whole point of ganking you is to get you annoyed and hopefully come back at the aggressor with friends. Then after back and forth it would escalate to the point of a full-blown war.

The poster I am replying to implies that world PVP is even better with flight, I am objecting to it because world PVP has never been the same since TBC introduced flight. Even the sporadic bouts of world PVP in Hellfire Peninsula were mostly a bunch of guys waiting on their flying mounts on top of Honor Hold/thrallmar waiting for whoever has the upper hand to swoop in. Same with the Zangar/Auchindoun towers. Very little PVP happened compared the epicness that was vanilla.



The point is the source of most world PVP comes from angering/annoying those players who are busy with their PVE activity, and incite them to return the gank favor.

Or did you think those Tarren Mill/Southshore or Stranglethorn episodes came purely from willing participants?

I was participating in a big TM/SS "battle" once in Classic on my lvl 40-and-something holy priest, and I was doing this willingly because I was just passing trough the zone on my way to Arathi and could have just left and moved along without doing anything (also, I was playing on a PvE server back then). If anything, it was out of RP reasons for me to stop and heal my fellow alliance members. This was just not the same as being in AV later with my mage at 60. A battle is an organised activity with tactics and leadership, and you barely have those in a BG, and almost never in open world pvp which is mostly a zerg. I would not want to waste my time with unorganised pvp anymore.

Guilds battling each other at summoning stones are possibly a different thing, since they probably also use some kind of voicechat when gathering for a dungeon or raid. But I was playing on a pvp server from mid-BC to the end of MoP and honestly did not see any negative impact on open world pvp from flying. Ganking was bad, because max level people could swoop down on your leveling characters who are not able to do anything, but ganking low levels is not pvp for me, its grieving. But open world pvp happened everywhere, and not exactly as you have described it (with people waiting on their flying mounts and such). We had pvp in HFP, in Nagrand (also on the elemental plateau), and just the same on the Isle of Quel'Danas. The pattern continued in later expansions, no matter if the zones had flying or not, or if there were pvp incentives or not. MoP had open world pvp in the Golden Lotus quest area (with flying) just like on the TI (without flying).

Anyway, I play on a pve server again, and I don't want that flying is removed because of world pvp. I don't mind if it is gone from pvp servers, if the people playing there like it better, but why bother on a pve server?

[Malackai]

I am talking about the scale of world PVP there, not how awesome it is gank someone who doesn't like to PVP. But world PVP occurred regardless even in those places since the whole point of ganking you is to get you annoyed and hopefully come back at the aggressor with friends. Then after back and forth it would escalate to the point of a full-blown war.

The poster I am replying to implies that world PVP is even better with flight, I am objecting to it because world PVP has never been the same since TBC introduced flight. Even the sporadic bouts of world PVP in Hellfire Peninsula were mostly a bunch of guys waiting on their flying mounts on top of Honor Hold/thrallmar waiting for whoever has the upper hand to swoop in. Same with the Zangar/Auchindoun towers. Very little PVP happened compared the epicness that was vanilla.

Tbh I think it has more to do with the game becoming more of a lobby game tho.
In vanilla you had to go to entrances and and that became less. And the world has changed a lot in 10 year, that and people getting older and less time to play only contributes to people not wanting to waste their time unnecessarily.

Even with TBC atleast back on my server there was still lots of world like pvp going around even with flight as long as there where enough people in the area. There was not really a difference in people mounting up and running away or or mounting up and them flying away.

Let me put it more directly as long as people have a reason to be in a area or if there's something worthwhile to fight for and people stick around. regardless if there's flying or not. if there's flight people might even be more willing to go out of there way and assist.
Do you remember Halaa?

Talking about me as a person that does not really like to PvP. If I saw a shout for help back then I mounted up and flew over to help if I had time plus as a vivid mount collector it was free tokens for me as well for some spiffy mounts.

So we have Efficiency and incentive to come help so I usually did if I had time. And the majority of the time we had quite some world pvp going on in the area. even trying to faction lock it down for hours.
If you would have removed the rewards from the area and make the zone no flight. Personally I would not have bothered to go there at all. yet lots of people still went there and most of the fights where really big and epic.

The point is the source of most world PVP comes from angering/annoying those players who are busy with their PVE activity, and incite them to return the gank favor.

Or did you think those Tarren Mill/Southshore or Stranglethorn episodes came purely from willing participants?

No but its the willing participants that either show up or stay around. While the unwilling usually move away. Personally I avoided these areas like plague back in the days, they dint appeal to me and never will.

But you keep forgetting the only reason things tended to start there is because lots of new people (undead) got pushed in to that zone leveling back then its was also the first neutral zone plus the entrance for Alterac battle ground was there as well so the density of the PvP players was already high to begin with same with the world pvp in ashenvale first neutral zone for many people combined with warsong battle ground so high density rate of PvP players around. After that it spread to Crossroads/Arathi Then people got funneled in to STV and after that to Tanaris. And after that Raid instances like BW/MC It had nothing to do flight. it had to do with people being bored and the need to physical move around if you wanted to get some stuff done. Basically it simply has to do with where people are gathering for there PVE objectives. We simply don't have that situation anymore especially in legion everyone is spread out from the start while leveling. We can queue for bloody everything while people sit in there class hall/dalaran.

In tbc We had Halaa, Auchindoun, Zanger, The area in Hellfire, Area 52 (Pvp fests practically daily there even in the town it was out lands equivalent of gagetzan),
They had pvp objectives but also Raid/dungeon entrances ergo what you call world pvp triggers.
It wasn't till after Wrath where it actually started to decline a lot especially after the dungeon finder was introduced means more people lobbying in Dalaran and less people bothering to go out in the world. only world pvp i saw there was around icecrown, naxx and the tournament zone. A lack of PVP centered zones like we had in TbC and the need to be physically there.

Just take the last patch now 7.1 with kara? You can fly there yet I heard there's quite some pvp going on there apparently. So again it has nothing to do with flight but simply funneling people into a area....

[Mafic]

World PVP died in WoD when flying was removed. Most of the world PVP was confined into camping flight path areas in Spires of Arrak for example. In Legion, you can not attack Dalaran so you are left with a situation where players just camp flight paths because again there is no flying.

Compared to MoP where flying was available if a flight path was camped (eg Horde PVP vendor) on Serpent Spine by an Alliance raid you could mount a counter attack with your own raid in a reasonable time frame because of flying. In comparison to non flight parts of MoP most of the PVP that happened on Thunder Isle were small scale in nature. Same with Treasure Island.

Flying is also what allowed for the constant raids on capital cities in Cata as it allow quick gathering of attackers but also defenders. Without flying, attacking capital cities is almost impossible for the attacker as the defender has plenty of time to organize a counter.

So in summary:

No flying world = small scale ganking
Flying world = large scale PVP raids and counter raids

[rohendar]

The point is the source of most world PVP comes from angering/annoying those players who are busy with their PVE activity, and incite them to return the gank favor.

Or did you think those Tarren Mill/Southshore or Stranglethorn episodes came purely from willing participants?

You don't see how much of a douchebag you sound here?????

Angering/annoying people who are actively doing something that is NOT pvp, inciting them to return the gank.
Everything in that statement is just so utterly wrong. This is a goddamn video game, no one should have to be part of anything that he doesn't want to. "Willing participants" is EXACTLY what it should be. "Ganking" by definition is forcing yourself on other people, interrupting their play for your petty enjoyment.

You just admitted that you view pvp is nothing more than grieving people who want nothing to do with you.
The fact that this view I find is typical of most of the people who defend 'world pvp', to me that just shows world pvp is a joke.

[-Joker-]

We've confirmed no flying in 7.0 and 7.1. That's really all there is to say until 7.2, and potentially 7.3. At this point, it seems like people are taking things more personally than anything and solid, non-circular discussion has run its course.

[Saracens]

Yet again, stop the bickering and personal attacks. Focus on the topic being discussed. Thank you.

[Mafic]

Tbh I think it has more to do with the game becoming more of a lobby game tho.
In vanilla you had to go to entrances and and that became less. And the world has changed a lot in 10 year, that and people getting older and less time to play only contributes to people not wanting to waste their time unnecessarily.

Even with TBC atleast back on my server there was still lots of world like pvp going around even with flight as long as there where enough people in the area. There was not really a difference in people mounting up and running away or or mounting up and them flying away.

Let me put it more directly as long as people have a reason to be in a area or if there's something worthwhile to fight for and people stick around. regardless if there's flying or not. if there's flight people might even be more willing to go out of there way and assist.
Do you remember Halaa?

Talking about me as a person that does not really like to PvP. If I saw a shout for help back then I mounted up and flew over to help if I had time plus as a vivid mount collector it was free tokens for me as well for some spiffy mounts.

So we have Efficiency and incentive to come help so I usually did if I had time. And the majority of the time we had quite some world pvp going on in the area. even trying to faction lock it down for hours.
If you would have removed the rewards from the area and make the zone no flight. Personally I would not have bothered to go there at all. yet lots of people still went there and most of the fights where really big and epic.



No but its the willing participants that either show up or stay around. While the unwilling usually move away. Personally I avoided these areas like plague back in the days, they dint appeal to me and never will.

But you keep forgetting the only reason things tended to start there is because lots of new people (undead) got pushed in to that zone leveling back then its was also the first neutral zone plus the entrance for Alterac battle ground was there as well so the density of the PvP players was already high to begin with same with the world pvp in ashenvale first neutral zone for many people combined with warsong battle ground so high density rate of PvP players around. After that it spread to Crossroads/Arathi Then people got funneled in to STV and after that to Tanaris. And after that Raid instances like BW/MC It had nothing to do flight. it had to do with people being bored and the need to physical move around if you wanted to get some stuff done. Basically it simply has to do with where people are gathering for there PVE objectives. We simply don't have that situation anymore especially in legion everyone is spread out from the start while leveling. We can queue for bloody everything while people sit in there class hall/dalaran.

In tbc We had Halaa, Auchindoun, Zanger, The area in Hellfire, Area 52 (Pvp fests practically daily there even in the town it was out lands equivalent of gagetzan),
They had pvp objectives but also Raid/dungeon entrances ergo what you call world pvp triggers.
It wasn't till after Wrath where it actually started to decline a lot especially after the dungeon finder was introduced means more people lobbying in Dalaran and less people bothering to go out in the world. only world pvp i saw there was around icecrown, naxx and the tournament zone. A lack of PVP centered zones like we had in TbC and the need to be physically there.

Just take the last patch now 7.1 with kara? You can fly there yet I heard there's quite some pvp going on there apparently. So again it has nothing to do with flight but simply funneling people into a area....

The problem is that CRZ is making world PVP impossible.

Can't mount a counter raid or attack spawn camping flight points because of phasing. You can't choose which shard to go to like other MMOs. WoW devs force sharding technology onto playerbase but playerbase has no choice into which shard to go to.

So you can't help your faction, server member, or guild member with world PVP or to do world PVP because of the excessive sharding on the Broken Isles.

The dirty secret is that the Broken Isles excessive CRZ sharding is why they are trying to post pone flying as much as possible. But it is having the reverse effect in that it is causing players to interact less with even their guild members or players from their server/faction.

Strange methodology WoW devs have foisted upon a game to try to make no flying work on the Broken Isles. But it is obviously failing and it has massive implications moving forward.

[GreekPowa]

Is there ANY post by Blizzard about Pathfinder part two in the future? Are we still in the dark?

Just give us something...

[Thimagryn]

The dirty secret is that the Broken Isles excessive CRZ sharding is why they are trying to post pone flying as much as possible.

I don't fully understand how you came to this conclusion. How is CRZ sharding postponing flight? What happens to CRZ sharding once flight is unlocked?

[Mafic]

Is there ANY post by Blizzard about Pathfinder part two in the future? Are we still in the dark?

Just give us something...

Mid expansion is when flying comes so presumably that is when part 2 will be available. That is also assuming there is only a part 2.

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I don't fully understand how you came to this conclusion. How is CRZ sharding postponing flight? What happens to CRZ sharding once flight is unlocked?

Everything goes haywire. Like the stealth being completely broken for Feral crossing CRZ shards on Broken Isles.

[-Joker-]

Strange methodology WoW devs have foisted upon a game to try to make no flying work on the Broken Isles. But it is obviously failing and it has massive implications moving forward.

No flying seems to work just fine. As for PvP, it's been argued for ages that flying actually ruined it, rather than improve it. While it helped gankers, the ability to make a fast exit really prevents any real mounted response. If people want to PvP, they will do it, and usually without the comforts of flight. PvP was killed with the introduction of instanced, controlled battlegrounds where you could farm kills. There hasn't been real open-world pvp for a great number of years. We used to raid Crossroads, but the last time I visited was for the Legion Launch event, and not some random PvP. Lack of flight until 7.2 or 7.3 is just fine. The game seems to be moving along without it.

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Is there ANY post by Blizzard about Pathfinder part two in the future? Are we still in the dark?

Just give us something...

It will be in the PTR patch notes for 7.2 or 7.3. They are hesitant to offer any information given the hounding and name calling done to them by the pro-flight extremists in this very thread.

[Mafic]

I was participating in a big TM/SS "battle" once in Classic on my lvl 40-and-something holy priest, and I was doing this willingly because I was just passing trough the zone on my way to Arathi and could have just left and moved along without doing anything (also, I was playing on a PvE server back then). If anything, it was out of RP reasons for me to stop and heal my fellow alliance members. This was just not the same as being in AV later with my mage at 60. A battle is an organised activity with tactics and leadership, and you barely have those in a BG, and almost never in open world pvp which is mostly a zerg. I would not want to waste my time with unorganised pvp anymore.

Guilds battling each other at summoning stones are possibly a different thing, since they probably also use some kind of voicechat when gathering for a dungeon or raid. But I was playing on a pvp server from mid-BC to the end of MoP and honestly did not see any negative impact on open world pvp from flying. Ganking was bad, because max level people could swoop down on your leveling characters who are not able to do anything, but ganking low levels is not pvp for me, its grieving. But open world pvp happened everywhere, and not exactly as you have described it (with people waiting on their flying mounts and such). We had pvp in HFP, in Nagrand (also on the elemental plateau), and just the same on the Isle of Quel'Danas. The pattern continued in later expansions, no matter if the zones had flying or not, or if there were pvp incentives or not. MoP had open world pvp in the Golden Lotus quest area (with flying) just like on the TI (without flying).

Anyway, I play on a pve server again, and I don't want that flying is removed because of world pvp. I don't mind if it is gone from pvp servers, if the people playing there like it better, but why bother on a pve server?

And that is the other aspect of it as the majority of the players play on PVE servers. Even on PVP servers the vast majority of players are PVE raiders truthfully and form entire PVE guilds on PVP realms so they can concentrate PVE raiding rosters.

That is why the no flying argument for being better for world PVP doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

[Swiftshadow]

Get Ganked -> Rolled on PVP Server -> Deal with It.

This is the most common answer I see.

It makes complete sense. I understand this simple logic.

But what about people like me who

- really wanted to roll on pve server
- but real life friends all rolled on pvp server
- so rolls on their server, but pves only

I'm sure there are others in this same situation. What are we expected to do? Play alone and ignore all our real life friends who play wow? Ask them to help me gank back? I only have like 5 of them.

What if theres like 20 or more enemies? Like at the Kara summoning stone now. I just went 4 hours ago. There were 30-40 enemies! All just standing there and killing us in like 1 sec!

Luckily, flying is allowed in deadwind pass.

SO YES. FLYING ASAP.

[Kazgrel]

No flying seems to work just fine. As for PvP, it's been argued for ages that flying actually ruined it, rather than improve it. While it helped gankers, the ability to make a fast exit really prevents any real mounted response. If people want to PvP, they will do it, and usually without the comforts of flight. PvP was killed with the introduction of instanced, controlled battlegrounds where you could farm kills. There hasn't been real open-world pvp for a great number of years. We used to raid Crossroads, but the last time I visited was for the Legion Launch event, and not some random PvP. Lack of flight until 7.2 or 7.3 is just fine. The game seems to be moving along without it.

Bold emphasis mine.

So which is it?

The latter bolded point (instanced pvp) occurred while the former (flying mounts) was nothing more than maybe a pipe dream to some people.

One monkey wrench I can think of: Even after instanced pvp became a thing, you still had the skirmishes out in Hillsbrad, or at any of the raids. As others have hinted to, if you get people to congregate in areas of the world (something wow has done poorly, in recent years...pre-Legion the majority of continents and landspace were nothing more than leveling areas), somebody's gonna get a wild hair up their ass and pick a fight.

One common reply I've seen to that assertion, perhaps here and elsewhere: Well all those sorts of skirmishes occurred in vanilla only, pretty much. Heh...the amount of corpses I've seen (and used to help create) at the entrance of Firelands and below Naxx (WotLK) say otherwise. Course, anecdote is anecdote. /shrug

If instanced pvp combat wasn't so highly rewarded, maybe there would be world pvp. However, reward wpvp enough, and you have nothing but people camping flightpaths all day every day...zzz. I guess that's one way to encourage SSD sales, heh.

[Thimagryn]

Everything goes haywire. Like the stealth being completely broken for Feral crossing CRZ shards on Broken Isles.

I'm genuinely confused about how CRZ affects flying, so please elaborate how flight is being postponed because of CRZ shards. That's what I don't understand you saying, because as far as I'm aware they don't have anything to do with one another. CRZ isn't changed when flight gets added.

Why do you conclude that it's CRZ that's causing flying to come mid expansion and not before. I simply don't understand the correlation between the two as you are suggesting. That's what I'm asking.

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If instanced pvp combat wasn't so highly rewarded, maybe there would be world pvp.

I feel that's an issue that mirrors that of flight itself. While flight itself doesn't offer rewards, it has the potential of allowing people to obtain rewards quicker/more time efficiently by lessening travel time and bypassing mechanics. It's because of this potential that flight is being 'punished'. If there were other ways to limit its reward potential (phase no-flying world quests, no-flying zones) then I think flying wouldn't need to be so limited.