WTF Happened to my HP?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Frost just got buffed again with 7.1 in terms of dps. They also don't rely on stamina as much. Mage is going to be good regardless. Assa is just a dps bot. If you nerf dps and survivability the dps bot turns to shit because he has nothing else to offer.

A 10% loss in stamina is dangerous because it means that training the Mage becomes a more viable strategy.
The Frost buffs are largely inane and don't counteract the damage nerfs that occurred in the October 25th hotfix. You don't bring Mages for their sustained, which is what was buffed in the 7.1 patch, you bring them for their ability to output large amounts of damage in their burst window, which is what was nerfed in the October 25th PVP hotfix.

The damage nerfs that Assassination has taken (10% Agility) will not kill the spec in the same way that the Frost burst nerfs will not kill the spec.

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Frost Mages are one of the most tankiest specs in PVP.

Why are frost mages more tanky than say Affliction locks and has more burst in 7.1? Afflicition needs some serious buffs if they are supposed to be a a tanky caster.

Not sure if being sarcastic.

[Deleted]

A 10% loss in stamina is dangerous because it means that training the Mage becomes a more viable strategy.
The Frost buffs are largely inane and don't counteract the damage nerfs that occurred in the October 25th hotfix. You don't bring Mages for their sustained, which is what was buffed in the 7.1 patch, you bring them for their ability to output large amounts of damage in their burst window, which is what was nerfed in the October 25th PVP hotfix.

The damage nerfs that Assassination has taken (10% Agility) will not kill the spec in the same way that the Frost burst nerfs will not kill the spec.

Stamina is not their entire lifepool. Mages got shields which are unaffected by this which means it's actualy influence is much lower compared to a 15% stamina nerf on rogues which also affect their selfheal as it's based on their hp.

And the agility nerf isn't the first one. There were multiple nerfs wich accumulate. Additionally you got the System shock nerf making it much harder to finnish a target as 4s->2s just means it wont allow you to prepare another finnisher during it's duration.

[Deleted]

Assasin was OP so they nerfed subtelty and outlaw. Makes perfect sense...

[Gully Man]

Stamina is not their entire lifepool. Mages got shields which are unaffected by this which means it's actualy influence is much lower compared to a 15% stamina nerf on rogues which also affect their selfheal as it's based on their hp.

And the agility nerf isn't the first one. There were multiple nerfs wich accumulate. Additionally you got the System shock nerf making it much harder to finnish a target as 4s->2s just means it wont allow you to prepare another finnisher during it's duration.

The system shock nerf also makes it easier to move out of the area bag of tricks covers before the final tick.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Stamina is not their entire lifepool. Mages got shields which are unaffected by this which means it's actualy influence is much lower compared to a 15% stamina nerf on rogues which also affect their selfheal as it's based on their hp.

And the agility nerf isn't the first one. There were multiple nerfs wich accumulate. Additionally you got the System shock nerf making it much harder to finnish a target as 4s->2s just means it wont allow you to prepare another finnisher during it's duration.

I don't know why you're trying to get into a "Rogues are worse than Mages now" argument, when it's simply not true...
Absorbs (dispellable, non-healable, has a CD) are valued less than raw stamina.
Percentage-based heals are nerfed when health is nerfed, and that's fine.
You still have a 30% damage taken reduction without a CD, as well as Evasion and Vanish.
Assassination will still have high representation in rated.
Assassination dealing reduced damage is the point; Rogues were over-tuned.

[Deleted]

I don't know why you're trying to get into a "Rogues are worse than Mages now" argument, when it's simply not true...

You started with how it was fine cause mage's got it worse arguing about damage and hp of mages. And i didn't say worse. I said the comparison by % stamina changes is stupid because the classes work different and are affected not equally.

[Mafic]

Frost mages are one of the tankiest specs in PVP because of absorbs. HP loss doesn't matter much to classes that utilize absorbs and have ranged CC.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You started with how it was fine cause mage's got it worse arguing about damage and hp of mages. And i didn't say worse. I said the comparison by % stamina changes is stupid because the classes work different and are affected not equally.

So you were just being pedantic and overstating an issue you had. OK, sure. Different classes have different mechanics, I should have known that I would need to do an in-depth analysis for an off-handed comparison between classes that had both their survivability and damage nerfed.

[Woop Woop]

I always ask myself the same thing every time I face a rogue: Wtf did happen to my hp.

[Mafic]

Assasin was OP so they nerfed subtelty and outlaw. Makes perfect sense...

Their logic makes no sense because non Assassination Rogues don't damage in PVP so nerfing HP of Sub/Outlaw and more damage nerfs makes no sense either.

[Deleted]

Boohoo, the non-tank leather-wearer with the best DPS defensive cooldown kit in the game is crying that he lost 5% Stamina in PvP only.

Grow up.

It's 5% Stamina for all Rogue spec + 15% additional loss for Outlaw and Assassination = 20% Stamina loss! Sub only lost 10% stamina.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Frost mages are one of the tankiest specs in PVP because of absorbs. HP loss doesn't matter much to classes that utilize absorbs and have ranged CC.

Absorbs aren't incredibly valuable due to the prevalence of Restoration Shaman at high-ratings; if you switch to the Mage, purging the shield is trivial. However, calling them one of the tankiest specs is rather silly, as they lack any meaningful defensive CDs outside of Ice Block. Ice Barrier is great, but people are drastically overstating how powerful it is.

While Frost has access to Polymorph, most other forms of ranged-CC (ie: freeze effects; such as Ice Nova) are necessary for Frost burst. If a Mage is controlling you with their freeze effects, they are effectively killing their burst. Glacial Spike is likely going to be making a return to prominence in rated with the nerfs to Deep Shatter nerfs, so you can consider that as control if you want.
As I know it's going to be brought up, Ring of Frost is not generally used in high-rated arenas. The mobility from Ice Floes is simply better.

[Shaderas]

No, in rated.
At the North American Regionals, Assassination Rogues specifically were one of the most selected classes/specs, entirely due to it having one of the best kits available. It's able to deal significant amounts of pressure and burst, great mobility, powerful defensives, etc.

Unfortunately, the Rogue PVP nerfs are going to lead to a lot of complaining from Rogues, which - at least in my experience - has one of the most entitled class communities.

Since you seem to be one of the more articulate posters here... do you think 15% was a bit too high of a stamina nerf, and maybe they should have started at 10%?

[jackofwind]

It's 5% Stamina for all Rogue spec + 15% additional loss for Outlaw and Assassination = 20% Stamina loss! Sub only lost 10% stamina.

And why should a leather-wearing class with a strong control kit and the best defensives in the game have that extra 20%? Do they need it, or will they perform the same without it while having to worry a little more about tankiness?

Did you see how much Assassination was picked at the recent tournament, and how well it performed? Rogues aren't supposed to be excessively tanky, and they already have amazing personal defensive CDs. Being balanced by a Stamina nerf is only reason to re-roll if you only want to play with an innate power advantage - in other words, be a FotM reroller.

Generally speaking we consider those people to be somewhat dumb.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Since you seem to be one of the more articulate posters here... do you think 15% was a bit too high of a stamina nerf, and maybe they should have started at 10%?

It's always better to under-nerf and update with a hotfix than it is to accidentally over-nerf, which Blizzard is known to be slow to change. The baseline 5% is fine, but I don't see why Subtlety was nerfed further, or why Outlaw was nerfed to the degree that it was. Outlaw is powerful, but it is nowhere close to being as strong as some other specs at the moment.
Assassination should be fine post-nerf, though I'm unsure why Blizzard decided to nerf their stamina (as that was not an issue) rather than lowering damage a little more (which is the issue). I'm assuming they want to make Assassination into glass cannons.

[Mafic]

And why should a leather-wearing class with a strong control kit and the best defensives in the game have that extra 20%? Do they need it, or will they perform the same without it while having to worry a little more about tankiness?

Did you see how much Assassination was picked at the recent tournament, and how well it performed? Rogues aren't supposed to be excessively tanky, and they already have amazing personal defensive CDs. Being balanced by a Stamina nerf is only reason to re-roll if you only want to play with an innate power advantage - in other words, be a FotM reroller.

Generally speaking we consider those people to be somewhat dumb.

Assassination Rogues don't have CC.

Furthermore the nerf to HP promotes Feint spam which makes Rogues "tanky"

The smart thing to do was to nerf Feint and leave HP alone. That way when feint is used intelligently that rewards the player.

Currently with the HP nerf even with intelligent use of feint a Rogue still dies. In other words, expect to see more spamming of Feint now with HP loss.

[Magical Mudcrab]

And why should a leather-wearing class with a strong control kit and the best defensives in the game have that extra 20%? Do they need it, or will they perform the same without it while having to worry a little more about tankiness?

I think there's a real risk of Rogues becoming an automatic target to switch to in Arena if their health is lowered too much.

[Gully Man]

The damage nerfs to assassination are fine. The stamina nerfs to all three specs are confusing, especially considering the other two specs don't put out much damage and their reasoning for the stamina nerfs is rogues have too much damage/survivability. The agility nerf to the other two specs makes no sense. They both have crap damage and now as sub if you want to bump up your damage a bit by taking thief's bargain you'll have about 1.3m hp, so someone will only have to fart on you and you'll die. That talent has been rendered useless. Might as well remove it from the talent tree.

[Orangetai420]

can you fucktards stop being fucking retarded?

Rogue strongest class ingame? YES IN WORLD PVP! YES WE ARE THE BEST FUCKING SHIT EVER IN WORLD PVP! WE CAN ONESHOT EVERONE IN WORLDPVP! TRY FUCKING RATED ARENA!! you dumb fuck, getting trained the whole game, evasion, then dead!

fucking retards!

Infracted

mmmm your tears sustain me! Rogue tears are so tasty, almost as good as mage tears.

Rogue is fine and with their kit will always be viable. Very much a L2P issue.

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A 10% loss in stamina is dangerous because it means that training the Mage becomes a more viable strategy.

TBH when do you train any other target in 3s? I would say about 75% of the time that the enemy team has a mage in 3s, that's the target we train.

[LongJohn]

thanks, time to reroll

I bet you ran upstairs and told your mom, then you cried all night.