Karazhan Difficulty and Length

[NightZero88]

Ran this last night and it was horrible. In 3 hours we got to the last boss but called it because it had gone on for far too long. We took a guild group so we were on vent and someone was giving us strats for the bosses. Our guild team is up to Cen on heroic so our gear level is around 840-860. I think my biggest complaint is the walk backs. I'd say walking easily counted for around 30 minutes of our run. Honestly I expect nerfs to this because it has far too difficult for the average and I see no chance in hell that a pug would be able to clear this as people would get frustrated and bail.

[xpose]

Ran this last night and it was horrible. In 3 hours we got to the last boss but called it because it had gone on for far too long. We took a guild group so we were on vent and someone was giving us strats for the bosses. Our guild team is up to Cen on heroic so our gear level is around 840-860. I think my biggest complaint is the walk backs. I'd say walking easily counted for around 30 minutes of our run. Honestly I expect nerfs to this because it has far too difficult for the average and I see no chance in hell that a pug would be able to clear this as people would get frustrated and bail.

Yup, expect nerfs because the rewards don't justify the effort required to complete it. Either blizzard buffs gear to start at 860 (slightly below heroic) or they nerf the instance.

I would love to see the data of everyone who does Karazhan next week compared to this week. I have a feeling there will be a massive decline.

[NightZero88]

Yup, expect nerfs because the rewards don't justify the effort required to complete it. Either blizzard buffs gear to start at 860 (slightly below heroic) or they nerf the instance.

I would love to see the data of everyone who does Karazhan next week compared to this week. I have a feeling there will be a massive decline.

My entire group stated we'd never go back. Although looking at what people were posting it seems you need too because the ring gets upgraded so I guess I'll need to do it.

[Thelin]

I don't see how people think its hard, even if its a pug group, its for the most part the same mechanics (save some changes) that the old kara had. Hell DBM does your job for you these days. It's not a hard instance it just has a lot of trash (that you cant really skip). Crying for nerfs after the first run is just silly. It will be much easier now that you've seen and done the bosses the first time around.

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As far as the rewards not justified in the effort, it starts at 855 which is 15 more ilvls than regular mythic difficult gives you and it keeps getting higher the further you progress. People keep speaking in generalizations without actual stats to back them up. Not every pug group is going to be a mouth breathing shit show, there is going to be rough patches the first run in when you've never done the boss before.

If they want to nerf something, perhaps remove a few trash pulls.

[NightZero88]

I don't see how people think its hard, even if its a pug group, its for the most part the same mechanics (save some changes) that the old kara had. Hell DBM does your job for you these days. It's not a hard instance it just has a lot of trash (that you cant really skip). Crying for nerfs after the first run is just silly. It will be much easier now that you've seen and done the bosses the first time around.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as the rewards not justified in the effort, it starts at 855 which is 15 more ilvls than regular mythic difficult gives you and it keeps getting higher the further you progress. People keep speaking in generalizations without actual stats to back them up. Not every pug group is going to be a mouth breathing shit show, there is going to be rough patches the first run in when you've never done the boss before.

If they want to nerf something, perhaps remove a few trash pulls.

I'm guessing you ran this with a guild group on voice comms with an ilevel of 870+ right? You certainly did not pug it.

[Raiju]

Yes, you could do questing for gear, and that would also be less effort than reward to this new dungeon.

They don't contradict, my point still stands. This instance was horribly designed. If they wanted to go for high difficulty, they should have just made it a full-on raid. As a 5-man, it's going to start collecting dust within a month, two tops. I've got casual people on my friends list who reckon they're not even going to bother doing it. It's another case of "Blizzard made content that isn't content at all", and we saw how far that got them last expansion.

And yet the most casual people on my friends list who don't even do LFR are planning to do it over time.

[lockedout]

I'm guessing you ran this with a guild group on voice comms with an ilevel of 870+ right? You certainly did not pug it.

I pugged this straight out of lfg. Used discord. Full clear just over two hours.

[NightZero88]

I pugged this straight out of lfg. Used discord. Full clear just over two hours.

What ilevel was your group? Had people in it done it on PTR? Did people know strats?

[Thelin]

I'm guessing you ran this with a guild group on voice comms with an ilevel of 870+ right? You certainly did not pug it.

Guild group, no voice not really necessary we all did the original Kara so its pretty much very familiar. I think most of us are round ilvl 860 as an average across the group ( I'm 865 tank) Gear aside the mechanics are not that difficult. Crying for a nerf the FIRST time it comes out is just silly, its not overtuned its just NEW so people will struggle/wipe a few times till they learn the mechanics. A new dungeon should be challenging the first time around, and karazhan was meant to be a little bit of a step up to feel almost raid quality for a 5 man. I felt its perfectly fine. Using ''did you pug it?" as justification of a nerf is just silly. There is a huge variance between pug groups..your experience is not reflective of everyone.

[wooootles]

Guild group

I think most of us are round ilvl 860 as an average across the group ( I'm 865 tank)

So that's why it was 'easy' for you.

I want to hear from someone else who ran the dungeon successfully in 840-845.

[Ahovv]

Just completed this about an hour ago. It took about 3-3.5 hours with a group of 865-875 people (mythic raiders guild group). This dungeon is buggy as shit. It's going to be a nightmare to complete if you try this with a pug. We wanted to see how the dungeon went and it wasn't enjoyable for any of us. I don't think I will ever do it again at this point.

?

I didn't notice any bugs during our clear. What was giving you problems?

[xpose]

Guild group, no voice not really necessary we all did the original Kara so its pretty much very familiar. I think most of us are round ilvl 860 as an average across the group ( I'm 865 tank) Gear aside the mechanics are not that difficult. Crying for a nerf the FIRST time it comes out is just silly, its not overtuned its just NEW so people will struggle/wipe a few times till they learn the mechanics. A new dungeon should be challenging the first time around, and karazhan was meant to be a little bit of a step up to feel almost raid quality for a 5 man. I felt its perfectly fine. Using ''did you pug it?" as justification of a nerf is just silly. There is a huge variance between pug groups..your experience is not reflective of everyone.

So basically you did a guild group and were overgeared for at least half of it


Maybe comment on it again when its actually progression, like when your group is 840-845, hell even 850.

[Dch48]

Kara is about on par with Heroic EN for difficulty - enough that you have to actually pay attention to what you're doing instead of just brute-forcing it but not so wildly overtuned that you cant clear it with players who are decently geared and have a good head for mechanics

I find it very difficult to believe that 7/7 Heroic people who are working on Mythic could find it "too hard" seeing as the gear checks are slightly more forgiving than Heroic EN.

It wasn't too hard for them to clear since they did it in one night. They said it was too hard to be fun and too hard for what the rewards are. They all said they won't do it again, not even for the mounts.

[Sarevokcz]

So that's why it was 'easy' for you.

I want to hear from someone else who ran the dungeon successfully in 840-845.

trash is fine, just not faceroll, but bosses have truckloads of HP, I seriously doubt pugs in 845-850 will be able to clear it on any regular basis and even guild groups would struggle, its like running all 845 chars through mythic 6-7, people would need way above average healer and even the easier bosses in the first part have some dps checks, that you either meet or wipe, Bane is obviously on another level, hes pretty much on par with some of the harder (not the hardest) m10 tyranical bosses. Basically people should accept, that its a 5man raid and that means maximum effort, flasks, food and if possible, potions for any group, that isnt overgeared

We will be coming back to farm the mount from Bane for everyone in our group, but thank god we dont have to clear whole instance for it, which is shame, because I really enjoyed the new visuals of the second half

[Video Games]

Just tried to pug it, but had around 6 or 7 wipes on the way, 3 on the first boss and then healer and dps left on the trash to whoever the next boss is. I don't mind the difficulty, but blizzard lost another mythic raider would-be pugger for this because I'm not touching it outside of a guild group now,

[arandan]

Let's get one thing straight from the beginning please:

This instance is not over tuned, the majority of people running it are just bad at this game.

On the topic of reward vs effort:

Let's put it this way - if you are playing this game constantly fixated on loot upgrades and not because you enjoy the challenge and satisfaction that comes from overcoming those struggles, then you are going to get burnt out really quickly.
Loot should be just a bonus, not your major focus in this game - the sooner you understand this - the better for you, trust me.

Also with the amount of possible BiS relics dropping in this place, along with mounts and some pretty sweet trinkets, there are many reasons to re-clear it fully for many more weeks to come, even if your only focus is just loot (which is sad, let me tell you).

[Simulacrum]

Let's get one thing straight from the beginning please:

This instance is not over tuned, the majority of people running it are just bad at this game.

On the topic of reward vs effort:

Let's put it this way - if you are playing this game constantly fixated on loot upgrades and not because you enjoy the challenge and satisfaction that comes from overcoming those struggles, then you are going to get burnt out really quickly.
Loot should be just a bonus, not your major focus in this game - the sooner you understand this - the better for you, trust me.

Also with the amount of possible BiS relics dropping in this place, along with mounts and some pretty sweet trinkets, there are many reasons to re-clear it fully for many more weeks to come, even if your only focus is just loot (which is sad, let me tell you).

Fascinating philosophy, bro.

No doubt you don't equip upgrades, and encourage your groups to unequip most of their gear, to stay consistent with your goals.

It's just about overcoming struggles, after all. Including the struggle of convincing others to listen to you, eh?

[arandan]

No, that's not what's written down in my post.
I suggest you re-read and try to comprehend it, then feel free to respond, otherwise - don't bother.

[Bigbazz]

How is it possible? An 865 group having troubles?

Dungeon is like 90% about mechanics, of which you won't know the first time you try. Dps/healing is not tight if you do mechanics, but the mechanics are not obvious or in any way forgiving. So it's easy to see how a 865 group would have trouble.

Edit : The real killer is the run back after a wipe, honestly I think Blizzard have in their mind notions of the good old days without taking into account why long as fuck run backs were removed to begin with. A wipe isn't just a wipe and repull, its a wipe and run back for a good 5 minutes before repulling.

That's my only criticism of Return to Karazhan, rest is awesome and I love it... But the run back is a pug nightmare and needs to be fixed.

[Theholypally]

Just tried to pug it, but had around 6 or 7 wipes on the way, 3 on the first boss and then healer and dps left on the trash to whoever the next boss is. I don't mind the difficulty, but blizzard lost another mythic raider would-be pugger for this because I'm not touching it outside of a guild group now,

I'm sure they are so sad.