Why do casuals need gear?

[Tomservo]

Because they play the game and want to enjoy it how they want to enjoy it. Simple enough.

[dippinsawse]

This has been asked many times over : why play a MMO if you don't want to play with other people? Honestly, I don't get how people justify playing a MMO when they don't want to play the game with other people. The genre of the game explicitly states that you will be playing with other people.

Because part of the multiplayer aspect is that it creates a more immersive world. It makes your character's progression more meaningful knowing that there are other people out there doing the same things. Progressing in a single player game often doesn't have the same feeling.

Plus these people aren't necessarily against playing with others, they just don't have the time or opportunity or current interest in doing it for whatever reason. Plus, if you want to just do random groups at a more casual level that is still taking in the multiplayer aspect.

[kary]

I never said they should be nerfed, but there should be multiple means of progression to accommodate differing playstyles.

I'm not trying to be anything and if the only way you can strengthen your argument is by making false (and condescending) assumptions about the person you disagree with then you don't have much of one.

They don't have to accomodate differing playstyles.
The premier playstyles have been pvp (3v3 and rbg) or raids and now mythic+.
If you don't want to do any of those, well you're sol. But basically organized group content has been what this game is a bout since it's launch.

WoW has never been about solo play. Sure, solo play has been possible, but the game has never been about solo play. It's a group based game.

[callipygoustp]

Because part of the multiplayer aspect is that it creates a more immersive world. It makes your character's progression more meaningful knowing that there are other people out there doing the same things. Progressing in a single player game often doesn't have the same feeling.

Plus these people aren't necessarily against playing with others, they just don't have the time or opportunity or current interest in doing it for whatever reason. Plus, if you want to just do random groups at a more casual level that is still taking in the multiplayer aspect.

Not sure why this was directed at my quote or, further, what your point is... You're not stating anything that isn't already common knowledge.

[anon5123]

Never played Smash4 but if fallows the definition then it is.

Except it's not. It's a 2-4 player fighting game that happens to have online play, which is still only 2-4 players at a time.

But since there are thousands and thousands of people playing online, that makes it an "MMO" ?

No, that's a retarded straw-grasping definition.

MMOs are built around multiplayer, with massive amounts of players. It does not mean "online game that lots of people play" like you seem to think it does, because if that's the definition you're using, then literally every single online game is an "MMO".

Not sure if trolling or really this dense.

[DarthMonk79]

There are many ways to progress though. There's the quest line, completing it is progression. Getting all rep's to exalted is progression. So saying that you need gear to progress as a "casual" is BS. Yes it is a way to progress but its not the only way. I'm sorry but someone that only quests and does nothing that requires group play as in something harder than what one person can do should never be as geared as someone that does stuff with a group. Even if its just dungeons, let alone raids. You want gear progression even when you hit max level but want to just do solo content or rarely do dungeons... have the solo content gear go up a mere 1-2 points at max level once you've hit it... lets say you were item level 800 at max level, you ran no dungeons, did no group quests. You decide to still not do dungeons or any group quests (lets say there's no world quests giving free gear), then plain and simple add more quests to progess storylines and reps, but gear rewards go up 1-2 points, not 5, 10, etc. If you are a person that just quests then story is what drives your progression at max level... not gear. You're not facing any harder targets so you don't need better gear, you need story progression, something that shows that you are doing something and progressing.

[crakerjack]

I think you already know that what you said is bullshit, but I guess I'll bite anyways.

WoW is a RPG at its core, so you got to have some sort of character progression.
So saying you don't need gear is simply wrong.
You need to be able to raise your power, progress you character.

I still can't wrap my head around why people care about other peoples gear or are jealous because of it.
Everyone playing should be alowed to have fun, to fucking PLAY.
I don't give two shits if someone who can't play more than 2 hours a day or whatever has more a higher ilvl through whatever means, gear doesn't mean that much after all.

"Everyone pays $15 bucks a month so I should be able to be as strong as them. It doesn't matter that they invest 5x the amount of time/effort as I do, I'm a little princess and suffer from severe only child syndrome and I always get what I want!"

RPG's work best when they follow the simple formula time invested = character progression. So if I spend months progressing my character, it only makes sense that I should be stronger than the person who has only invested 20 hours into their character. Why does that matter? Because it's about fairness. Would you continue to work at a firm if you found out all new employees will start at the same salary as you even though you've been there for the last 10? How about if you went to a restaurant and ordered a $60 filet mignon and someone else got the same cut for only $20? Why does it matter to you? It's not your food, you're not eating it. Based on your argument there shouldn't be an issue there.

Giving high ilvl gear to casuals without any sort of challenge is like telling a raider that all their effort/time invested is null.

[Traxwow]

Expecting WF/TF equates to laziness. Thinking he should be above 858 when he runs content that drops 855 at most without luck. Complaining about being 858 when he runs content that does not require over 858. Same thing with people complaining that they didn't receive a legendary. Every single person in the top raiding guilds had a legendary by M EN launch, but apparently there's tons of people crying who have been playing 6 hours since launch and still haven't received one, so weird.

[Sansnom]

WoW has never been about solo play. Sure, solo play has been possible, but the game has never been about solo play. It's a group based game.

And you have seen the design documents and stated goal of the game of course. The game has solo and has group based and has PvP element in it. It has never been a solo based game anymore than it is about group based game.

- - - Updated - - -

If anything you lot are the planned parenthood protesters. "casual" no progress shitters are the westboro baptist church of gamers.

Game: "Group up, do X and recieve Y"
You: "We don't want to group up, or do X, and we'll whine until you give us Y"
Us: "No, fuck off. You don't get Y if you don't group up and do X"


This is how all these threads go, have gone, and will go

Nope. That is just in your imaginary world. Raiders were the first to complain from TBC because people were acquiring gear outside the raids. That is where the term welfare epic comes started.

That is when all these who deserved what started.

[Jtbrig7390]

Last week paid out for me. The weekly quest gave me shoulders and the chest in theborder hall gave me an upgrade as well. Theirs upgrades out there but its slow, not very clear and all too random

Ya I finally got a WQ where the stats on the gear wasn't shit, so I was able to replace my boots finally. Same ilvl but way better stats.

[kary]

And you have seen the design documents and stated goal of the game of course. The game has solo and has group based and has PvP element in it. It has never been a solo based game anymore than it is about group based game.

- - - Updated - - -



Nope. That is just in your imaginary world. Raiders were the first to complain from TBC because people were acquiring gear outside the raids. That is where the term welfare epic comes started.

That is when all these who deserved what started.

People were complaining because sunwell island gear was way better than black temple gear and made all content pre sunwell instantly obsolete, not because people were acquiring gear outside raids. I.E, the rewards didn't match the challenge. Funny thing, they never made that mistake again.

[Osmeric]

People were complaining because sunwell island gear was way better than black temple gear and made all content pre sunwell instantly obsolete, not because people were acquiring gear outside raids. I.E, the rewards didn't match the challenge. Funny thing, they never made that mistake again.

I hope you're being sarcastic in that bolded part.

[Jtbrig7390]

the rewards didn't match the challenge. Funny thing, they never made that mistake again.

Did you even play wrath?

TOC made everything before it obsolete and so did the ICC 5man dungeons, along with adding valor to buy tier gear. I could get a full set of T10 and never step foot in ICC. Good gear and tier outside of raiding isn't a new thing.

God I hope your being sarcastic because I can give you examples in each expansion that prove this wrong.

[Nethlord]

Yes yes, then go do some progression shit and not wine about not getting gear when you are not doing anything remotely progression based.

everyone can bitch an wine about it as much as you can but it all comes down to one point.
people work for that gear. You dont want to do that, ea doing dungeons/mythics raids etc (which is fine btw). Then you dont get the loot. simple as that.

It has nothing to do with being casual it has to do with going trough the content. the harder the content the better the gear.

/threat

Because....and follow me on this.....world content actually has a base level needed for gear (which sits around the 840-850 ilvl). You can do world content comfortably around that place, but that isn't what you're asking; you're marginalizing entire people to stroke your ego. These "casuals" you are talking about, they aren't complaining about gear, they aren't actually reading this or representative of what you are talking about. They are playing the game right now, having fun doing whatever they are doing. They aren't trying to be a raider or a M+ dungeon champ. They aren't even thinking about this part of the game, they are making the best out of the game they are playing.

You on the other hand are making this comment to make a clear distinction between you (the super-uber player) and those that play the game, want gear but not in the same constant boring pigeoned-holed way we've had for years. Guess what? Your argument holds zero water, because the game isn't about gear anymore....it's about content right? I like the fact that in the last two days I got a ring that came from a WQ that was TF at 875, gloves from N EM that TF at 880 and got legendary pants. Know what that means to me? I means that when I want to try and go onto the next phase of content (if I want to), I have good gear right now so I can take down harder and harder content....for the content. For the person that is fine with world content and LFR....they are really good.

For you....I think you're equating progress with having the best gear in the game, and that distinction is long gone. Now, you're doing that mythic raid primarily for the challenge....and then there's gear. Isn't that enough?

Something tells me that it's not.

[kary]

I hope you're being sarcastic in that bolded part.

They didn't.

ToC gear that you got from badges were ilvl 232. You got 245 from the raid and 251 from the ICC emblems of frost, which had a cooldown.
Badges of justice didn't make ToC gear invalid/obsolete. It gave you toc gear.

[Foj]

People playing a game in a way different than it was designed, and then complaining about.... that needs to be figured out. I don't need/want to figure them out.

MMORPGs have always been designed with massive amounts of solo play in mind. The genre you are thinking of is MOBAs etc. "MMORPG" doesn't mean "Literally Can't Play the Game without Cooperating with Four Other People." That's LCPGWCWFOP not MMORPG.

They didn't.

ToC gear that you got from badges were ilvl 232. You got 245 from the raid and 251 from the ICC emblems of frost, which had a cooldown.
Badges of justice didn't make ToC gear invalid/obsolete. It gave you toc gear.

Well, there are people who think that once you can obtain raid-quality gear without raiding, the raid gear is obsolete.

Sort of like if you can buy bottled beer, homebrewing is obsolete.

[callipygoustp]

MMORPGs have always been designed with massive amounts of solo play in mind.

I'm not sure I would say "massive" amounts but extreme adjectives aside : I totally agree. No argument from me there.

The genre you are thinking of is MOBAs etc.

No, MOBA is not what I am thinking mainly because I have never played a MOBA and as such wouldn't speak on it. All of my comments are specific to MMORPGs.

"MMORPG" doesn't mean "Literally Can't Play the Game without Cooperating with Four Other People." That's LCPGWCWFOP not MMORPG.

I never said anything closely resembling "Literally Can't Play the Game without Cooperating with Four Other People." Please don't put words in my mouth.

[kary]

MMORPGs have always been designed with massive amounts of solo play in mind. The genre you are thinking of is MOBAs etc. "MMORPG" doesn't mean "Literally Can't Play the Game without Cooperating with Four Other People." That's LCPGWCWFOP not MMORPG.


Well, there are people who think that once you can obtain raid-quality gear without raiding, the raid gear is obsolete.

Sort of like if you can buy bottled beer, homebrewing is obsolete.

Bolding the part I'm replying to.

Understood, but MMORPG also doesn't imply that you can get the best of anything solo.
And it's not like blizzard hasn't been telling you where the best rewards are

[Soeroah]

If you consider a game a job, odds are that you actually no longer enjoy the gameplay. If you're asking why some games require a significant time investment, well... because some people enjoy that. There are tons of shorter games on the market.

Mmm. And I enjoy much of WoW, particularly when I get rewards for it, even if those rewards aren't as frequent or frequently as good as players who play at a higher level. If I were forced into content I don't enjoy such as normal+ raiding the game would feel more like a job than a game to me.

I'm fine with people playing in higher difficulties getting better stuff, but I don't see the logic behind "casuals" not needing gear. Gear's a progression we like just as much as raiders, even if our ilevels aren't going to be as high. It makes the world content we do easier over time, which is exactly what progression is meant to do, allowing us to take on more difficult content should we wish to. Some might even go into those higher difficulties once they have a good set of gear they got doing what they enjoyed, rather than having to group-match to get up to that point.

For my money, though, I'm a bit disappointed there's no real end game reward for alts. I may not raid normal+ or have any intention of doing Mythic keystone dungeons, but I hardly think I'm a casual with the amount of time and effort and dedication I'm expecting to put into Legion. At the least I'd appreciate a line of Artifact appearances you unlock for meeting account-wide criteria such as completing all Class Campaigns/unlocking all class' Hall sets, stuff like that. ATM alt-focused players I think are the only ones that don't really have a dedicated Artifact appearance line. First is a freebie, second is general PvE, third is "hardcore" PvE, fourth is PvP and fifth is Hidden.

Alt-centric play isn't rewarded very often, which amuses me since it's still a significant time investment.

[primalmatter]

I miss the old power curve with tbc pretty sunwell... I think people expect to many power rewards these days.