Why do casuals need gear?

[melodramocracy]

I'm fine with people playing in higher difficulties getting better stuff, but I don't see the logic behind "casuals" not needing gear. Gear's a progression we like just as much as raiders, even if our ilevels aren't going to be as high. It makes the world content we do easier over time, which is exactly what progression is meant to do, allowing us to take on more difficult content should we wish to. Some might even go into those higher difficulties once they have a good set of gear they got doing what they enjoyed, rather than having to group-match to get up to that point.

I think it's the nature of things that your gear-based progression will end quicker if you opt out of the higher end play. (even mythic raiders run out of effective gear, some of them rather quickly as well).

As far as the gear itself, I feel like the game currently does a reasonable job in guaranteeing AP, while not guaranteeing gear. Things are still worth doing when presented with a situation like that.... take heroic dungeons as an example. I still run them daily for AP, though realistically I completely outgear them.

In terms of not 'needing' gear if you aren't doing various types of content.... to me, gear always makes the interesting part of the non-instanced game that much smaller. At some point you get to a stage where the only places out in the world you need to be cautious in are eastern Suramar, and the 4 surrounding isles (one of which isn't even worth messing around with). Everything else poses no threat, and when the game gets to that point, the 'chore' aspect kicks in.

For my money, though, I'm a bit disappointed there's no real end game reward for alts. I may not raid normal+ or have any intention of doing Mythic keystone dungeons, but I hardly think I'm a casual with the amount of time and effort and dedication I'm expecting to put into Legion. At the least I'd appreciate a line of Artifact appearances you unlock for meeting account-wide criteria such as completing all Class Campaigns/unlocking all class' Hall sets, stuff like that. ATM alt-focused players I think are the only ones that don't really have a dedicated Artifact appearance line. First is a freebie, second is general PvE, third is "hardcore" PvE, fourth is PvP and fifth is Hidden.

Perhaps later on down the road they'll offer something like this. They certainly don't seem concerned with alts right now. I'm not either, but I can understand folks who enjoy that style of play.

[Soeroah]

Perhaps later on down the road they'll offer something like this. They certainly don't seem concerned with alts right now. I'm not either, but I can understand folks who enjoy that style of play.

I suggested it to them, but I don't think they'll ever realistically do something like this. Probably if they did a lot of people not into that sort of play will complain about being "forced" to have a ton of alts (which is odd, since many of the same people insist collectors aren't forced into content they don't like, it's a choice, etc) but Blizzard's never really been about rewarding alts, outside of perhaps account-wide pets that you can only collect on specific classes in some Order Halls.

I really do feel like it's worth considering alts/collections another type of end-game to be rewarded, particularly with so many account-wide things. Rather than progressing vertically they progress horizontally, if that makes sense?

[Osmeric]

They didn't.

ToC gear that you got from badges were ilvl 232. You got 245 from the raid and 251 from the ICC emblems of frost, which had a cooldown.
Badges of justice didn't make ToC gear invalid/obsolete. It gave you toc gear.

Badges? Who was talking about badges?

ToC itself invalidated Ulduar. Guilds that were still progressing in Ulduar when ToC released largely dropped the place and didn't go back.

[Kithelle]

I think you already know that what you said is bullshit, but I guess I'll bite anyways.

WoW is a RPG at its core, so you got to have some sort of character progression.
So saying you don't need gear is simply wrong.
You need to be able to raise your power, progress you character.

I still can't wrap my head around why people care about other peoples gear or are jealous because of it.
Everyone playing should be alowed to have fun, to fucking PLAY.
I don't give two shits if someone who can't play more than 2 hours a day or whatever has more a higher ilvl through whatever means, gear doesn't mean that much after all.

Kinda agree with the dude...if this player doesn't want to take place in any of the aspects of character progression offered to him, then why should he be handed high level gear for free, just for doing a single quest? Why do Mythic Dungeons or raid at all when all you have do is the world quest loot pinata?

[Snuffleupagus]

Again depends. I may log on every day and run one dungeon. Or pet battle. Or a handful of bgs. I would consider that extemely casual. The fact that its not fixed is important. The game does not dictate my schedule.

In any event patience wasnt really the point either. Your claim was that it did not take much effort to get gear and i advised you that its not the case. Im stuck in the 850s at some time now despite having made considerable effort. If you insist patience is required then obviously so is effort.

I log in every three days plus Sat/Sun to raid. 869ilvl wuth mostly TF WQ gear. My 3-4 raid pieces are lower ilvl than dungeon and WQ gear.

Not hard. Not much effort.

[Interim]

Because without a somewhat constant trickle of incremental gear upgrades in this game, character "progression" stagnates, the false sense of accomplishment fades, players lose interest, and subs decline. I personally don't think someone who only does casual solo content "needs" or "deserves" anything higher than an item level in the low 850's, either, but these players likely make up a huge chunk of the game, so they still need a proverbial carrot on a stick dangled before them as new content updates are released.

I'm speaking, of course, about mechanisms for continued gear progression as the expansion moves on -- not a way to cater to the masses by giving away ilvl 880 gear during the first raid tier. For anyone who's stagnated in the 850 bracket in current content, that's just your gear ceiling until 7.1. But if there are no opportunities for upgrades for these players in 7.1 and 7.2, then Blizzard is only asking to drive them away.

They have the stick. Do harder content. Otherwise find an easier game. (Hint: good luck)

What blizzard turned mmorpgs into literally makes me nauseous. Used to be devs designed a game and u either played or u didn't. Loot in legion might be what I hate the most about it.

/em can't wait for pantheon next year.

[Snuffleupagus]

People who buy a MMO (massively multiplayer) game and think it's just a multiplayer game, I can't figure that out either. There's a huge difference between multiplayer and massively multiplayer. Google is your friend.

Massively multiplayer is still multiplayer. Reading is your friend.

- - - Updated - - -

"force everyone to be social because i am too lazy to do it myself."

Force how?

[kary]

Badges? Who was talking about badges?

ToC itself invalidated Ulduar. Guilds that were still progressing in Ulduar when ToC released largely dropped the place and didn't go back.

Raid gear always made raid gear from the previous tier obsolete.
The sunwell fiasco was that badges that you farmed in kara, the absolute lowest tier, would reward you with items approx 2.5 tiers higher.
Sunwell badge gear wasn't tied to sunwell, it was tied to badges of justice that you got everywhere.

Basically, you were over-rewarded. Sub T4 content shouldn't net you >t6 gear. That is why there were issues.

When the sunwell badge vendor came out, you were either in sunwell or doing kara for badge gear. Progression stopped if you weren't already in sunwell. That was what they never did again.

[Kaeth]

Used to be devs designed a game and u either played or u didn't.

And then the "big business" people took over and wanted to make a lot of money, which is why you don't see this much anymore outside of indie games. For the time being, major development studios will try to appeal to the largest and most diverse audience possible. Because they want to attract and retain players.

That period in the 1990's when game studios made whatever they thought was cool and hoped people would buy it are mostly gone. Activision and EA bought up all of those studios and gave them sales quotas.

I was only suggesting that it would be a mistake for Blizzard to let casual players -- in this extremely loot-driven game -- go through a major content patch without any incremental improvements. Not that Blizzard should begin mailing out mythic raid gear to everyone just for having a subscription.

[Shizzy]

I love how people attacking the original point have no actual argument. all they say is, "because, character progression" and "it's only a game, why do you care what other people get" and fail to see the hypocrisy and irony of it all. So not only are you implying character progression does not exist below ilvl850, which is simply not true, there is character progression, just perhaps at a slower pace, but that's fine because if you want it at a faster pace, guess what, you can strap your ass down to a chair and raid in a pug or guild group, whatever and "character progress" that way.

The other thing you say is "this is a game, it doesn't matter what I get, why do you care?" So, using that same logic and reasoning, why do YOU care that people have higher ilvl gear? Obviously it bothers some of you that people who are putting in more effort have more gear, why? If you guys find it so easy to dismiss someone who doesn't want someone who is putting in less effort to have more than him, why cant you say the same for yourself but in reverse? IF i am putting in zero effort into something, I should not except a reward. If I do average effort, I except an average reward, you get the point.

Also, the "we both pay money, we both deserve the same gear" argument. So, if we both pay to go go kart racing, and my goal is to win and your goal is to have fun, you can't get mad at me when I win 90% of the time and say you deserved to win 50% and me lose 50% because we both paid the same amount, that's not how it works.

[Ohleemar]

Nothing to see here, folks. Just your standard "I'm a special snowflake because I do harder stuff than you, so you suck and I deserve better than you" troll and his buddies stroking his ego. Just roll your eyes, close the message board, and move on.

[Shizzy]

Nothing to see here, folks. Just your standard "I'm a special snowflake because I do harder stuff than you, so you suck and I deserve better than you" troll and his buddies stroking his ego. Just roll your eyes, close the message board, and move on.

Just read what you said. "I do harder stuff, and I deserve better stuff". Do you seriously believe that this ISN'T how things should be? Why would I put ANY effort if everyone got the same quality stuff with the same amount of effort. I wouldn't even be playing this game if that were the case. Sure, if I can do harder things and you can't do those things, it does mean I am better than you, but me saying facts doesn't make me a dick.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I am by no means a casual, but I do think it is important for them to have character progression. First of all the stronger they can become the higher tuned the next patches content can be tuned. For example if "casuals" were stuck at say 820-830 heroic blue level of gear Kara would have had to been essentially tuned for people of 820-830 gear. But with random gear upgrades, world quest drops, crafted items, and "some" mythic 5 man progression/LFR it is possible to upscale that to 840-850. So in a way it makes it to where even raiders can run Kara and find an upgrade and enjoy the content (while on a more limited scale because lets be honest raiders progression is raiding itself) while also being challenging progression for a more casual audience coming off of the opening content of the expansion. Secondly people just enjoy getting upgrades and that is a carrot on the stick to continue to play and to continue to contribute to the whole community. While they are hunting for gear upgrades they are picking herbs, mining nodes, and crafting items that makes things better for everyone. They are making money and buying other peoples items off the AH. In the end everyone having purpose in the game and having the ability to drive forward makes for a better game for both casuals and hardcore players alike. Honestly I think the only reason we have this stupid rivalry to begin with is peoples ridiculous belief that if one side gets anything they enjoy the other side has to be destroyed in the process. It isn't true at all unless you truly refuse to play the game beyond an extremely narrow vision and in which case that is more your fault than anyone or anything else.

[Ragnarohk]

We casuals don't really need gear. Normal mode raid gear, or even lesser quality gear, is just fine for our casual activities (questing, farming xmog items, LFR, 5 mans, casual PvP, pet battles, professions, soloing old content, world quests, order hall, etc)

[chipwood]

Massively multiplayer is still multiplayer. Reading is your friend.

Another person who doesn't get it. And your sig says it all:

I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

What about the thousands of other players in the game you're playing with but not grouped with at the moment? You DO seem to lose sight of the fact that they pay too. Again, massively multiplayer and multiplayer are not the same thing. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who can't understand that.

[Snuffleupagus]

Another person who doesn't get it. And your sig says it all:

What about the thousands of other players in the game you're playing with but not grouped with at the moment? You DO seem to lose sight of the fact that they pay too. Again, massively multiplayer and multiplayer are not the same thing. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who can't understand that.

You're telling me you want to trivialise content and rewards to cater to your inability to socialise and/or stay out of fire, just because you pay your sub.

This is not the game for you, play something else. Instead of getting defensive, find a game that gives you what you want instead of insisting that this one cater to people who have no business in a multiplayer game.

[Kioshi]

They don't all Casual should just quit and let the hardcore do what they want.

[Snuffleupagus]

They don't all Casual should just quit and let the hardcore do what they want.

The people whining are hopelessly addicted and would rather complain than actually find a game they enjoy.

[Deleted]

I am by no means a casual, but I do think it is important for them to have character progression. First of all the stronger they can become the higher tuned the next patches content can be tuned. For example if "casuals" were stuck at say 820-830 heroic blue level of gear Kara would have had to been essentially tuned for people of 820-830 gear. But with random gear upgrades, world quest drops, crafted items, and "some" mythic 5 man progression/LFR it is possible to upscale that to 840-850. So in a way it makes it to where even raiders can run Kara and find an upgrade and enjoy the content (while on a more limited scale because lets be honest raiders progression is raiding itself) while also being challenging progression for a more casual audience coming off of the opening content of the expansion. Secondly people just enjoy getting upgrades and that is a carrot on the stick to continue to play and to continue to contribute to the whole community. While they are hunting for gear upgrades they are picking herbs, mining nodes, and crafting items that makes things better for everyone. They are making money and buying other peoples items off the AH. In the end everyone having purpose in the game and having the ability to drive forward makes for a better game for both casuals and hardcore players alike. Honestly I think the only reason we have this stupid rivalry to begin with is peoples ridiculous belief that if one side gets anything they enjoy the other side has to be destroyed in the process. It isn't true at all unless you truly refuse to play the game beyond an extremely narrow vision and in which case that is more your fault than anyone or anything else.

This is quite on point.

Also, when casuals get gear which enables them to get a peek of group content because they get admitted into it (lower admission gates with automatic matchmaking, higher with premade groups), then they probably will participate in such content at least from time to time. When casuals will always hit the item level wall, they will never participate in group content, and I bet this is not the intent of the developers.

This is especially important for people like me - who usually play casually, especially on days with less free time, but like to run group content on weekends, where I usually run mythic dungeons (because these require less ongoing time commitment than raids; I just don't like to start a raid and have to drop out before the group calls it a day because RL). I am also not afraid of helping out people and wipe a couple of times, if I actually have the time to wipe, and not afraid to "carry" people if I have better gear / skills then my group does. (I run heroics regularly, currently to get 100 dungeons for my hidden artifact skin, and I overgear these quite well by now, but I just don't care, because I can help people out who are probably struggling.)

But if I constantly get the feedback that my gear is not good enough for occasional participation in premade groups, then I will stop enlisting for these, and is this the intended result, to make the player base smaller?

[Glorious Leader]

You're telling me you want to trivialise content and rewards to cater to your inability to socialise and/or stay out of fire, just because you pay your sub.

This is not the game for you, play something else. Instead of getting defensive, find a game that gives you what you want instead of insisting that this one cater to people who have no business in a multiplayer game.

Teling people to leave is a fine suggestion for those players as they have little other recourse as individuals. This of course is bad news for the gane and the developers.

You arent stupid or at least i dont get that sense. Why advocate and promote a course of action that will only harm the game?