Karazhan - Worst melee 5-man content ever?

[Schattenlied]

Maiden, perhaps more than any other, exemplifies the 'lets make life harder for melee' design with the 'make sure you run really far away from the boss this time' mechanic

Maiden doesn't have a "run far away" mechanic... Bring her to the wall of the room, drop consecrate just behind her and pull her along the wall just enough for everyone to not be in it after it's done growing, repeat, everyone has high uptime... I say this as someone who plays the lowest mobility melee in the game, Maiden is not melee unfriendly.

[deadman1]

This thread comes off as a "why do bosses have mechanics, patchwerk was the best." Also somehow you are under the impression that range dps doesn't lose DPS by having to move. It's not like they have to cast things.

Curator

Everyone has to move ... lol

Shade of Medivh

No, you have to run out for like 1 second, also it's not a melee only ability therefore it quite literally isn't "melee unfriendly"

Mana Devourer

everyone has to stand close for healing etc. Again mechanics ... oooh scary.

Maiden, perhaps more than any other, exemplifies the 'lets make life harder for melee' design with the 'make sure you run really far away from the boss this time' mechanic

Don't blame your poor boss positioning on mechanics, bring the big lady over to the concecrate, it's not her fault your tank is bad.

only to be outdone by Viz'aduum that includes the 'run far away and wait quite a while with your debuff in the corner' crowning achievement right there.

Not melee unfriendly, maybe you lose a bit of DPS but it's not a mechanic that only hits melee ... therefore it quite literally isn't "melee unfriendly"

[Zombie422]

This thread comes off as a "why do bosses have mechanics, patchwerk was the best." Also somehow you are under the impression that range dps doesn't lose DPS by having to move. It's not like they have to cast things.

People who struggle with content and refuse to better themselves will always whine about content..

[Palmtree]

I can see why a spec like Moonkin will have trouble getting into to speed part of Nightbane pugs because of lacking aoe but for the rest it's fine as it is.
(and yes i play Moonkin and want a buff) :-)

[Deleted]

Considering that karazhan is not a mythic+ dungeon, im just gonna accept the difficulties melee face in there and move on.
Yes certain things really blows if you need to stay spread and then you have a bouncy havoc DH in the grp, i say they suffer more than others on most of these fights.

Is the dungeon fun? Absolutely it is, it was well made and the bosses did make you go "oh fuck" - which rarely happens in 5man content, but you were never confused as to what went wrong, you were never left with a sense of "how do we possibly deal with this" - and thats coming from a fury warr, havoc, retri dps combo.

I dont mind harsh melee mechanics in such an enviorment, and i think they did well to punish ranged in most of the similar situations, though one that slipped through the crack has to the westfall story with the lightning aoe and the sweep, if you wanna dodge those overlaps from melee deeps and avoid the spin, you will not spend a whole lotta time dealing with the boss.

Overall, i had fun even if it was rough as 3 melee to deal with certain mechanics.

[Deleted]

Blizzard said that they would no loner design encounters that forced specific group compositions - but try doing Kara with full melee, it is a nightmare.

Curator, Shade of Medivh, and Mana Devourer are some of the most melee unfriendly fights that exist in five man content. They all have major abilities that basically mean 'run away from the boss'. As such melee stacked groups have vastly inferior uptime on these final encounters.

Maiden, perhaps more than any other, exemplifies the 'lets make life harder for melee' design with the 'make sure you run really far away from the boss this time' mechanic - only to be outdone by Viz'aduum that includes the 'run far away and wait quite a while with your debuff in the corner' crowning achievement right there.

6 out of 9 melee unfriendly fights. When did their encounter design team decide to do this?

That's called harder content.
Welcome in the gaming universe.

[caervek]

Cleared it on Ret pala, had no trouble with Medivh/Mana. Curator was a tad annoying but then it wouldn't be curator otherwise.

[teddabear]

You will never reach any sort of consensus about Kara because they released a 5 man where a significant portion of the population already massively outgear it and people doing just 5 mans and low level mythic+ are fairly undergeared for it. The Mythic+ system suffers from a similar issue in that the people doing high level mythic+ are doing it with a lot of raid gear. There is just such a large discrepancy between raid gear and what can be obtained from Mythic+ without raid gear that people will have vastly different experiences.

I think most people would agree that Heroic EN is pretty easy. Extremely easy with a guild and even not that difficult with a decent pug and it drops 865. Mythic+ 865 loot requires a +6 keystone to get the same loot which is significantly more difficult if you don't already have a lot of EN Heroic gear. You certainly would never get accepted into a Mythic+6 pug without being mostly geared in EN heroic gear.

Imo the main culprit is EN is too easy for the ilvl. Looking at the ilvl from Nighthold the issue is just going to get worse. Even if Nighthold is properly tuned in difficutly the large ilvl discrepancy that already exists is just going to exacerbate the problem. I think Mythic+ was a good idea they just messed up on the gear level drops in Emerald nightmare.

The 2 systems reinforce each other to create a larger gear level difference that you would see normally. Even a fairly casual raid guild will be sitting around 875 ilvl which someone that is trying to gear with regular Mythic 5 mans, WQ, World bosses and crafting will have difficultly getting much above 850. That is just too large of a difference for people to have even a remotely similar experience.

Personally I think Kara is quite good, but the old Kara was my all time favorite instance. The problems you are seeing are a result of Blizzard creating a larger gear level gap than you would usually see, especially this early into the expansion. Crafting seems to have been a huge failure and I expect most players wish they had switched to 2 gathering profession for this expansion.

The company just doesn't have the foresight it once did and you end up with situations like this that aren't easily remedied. I think Blizzard thougth Mythic+ would somewhat offset the gear difference between people that don't do 20 mans but it was worked out the opposite. The crafted gear is so bad I don't see them able to adjust it enough to compensate, and the rep gear is pretty much a joke.

TLDR - Don't blame Kara, blame the ilvl of the gear in the first instance.

[Deleted]

This thread comes off as a "why do bosses have mechanics, patchwerk was the best." Also somehow you are under the impression that range dps doesn't lose DPS by having to move. It's not like they have to cast things.
Everyone has to move ... lol

No, you have to run out for like 1 second, also it's not a melee only ability therefore it quite literally isn't "melee unfriendly"

everyone has to stand close for healing etc. Again mechanics ... oooh scary.

Don't blame your poor boss positioning on mechanics, bring the big lady over to the concecrate, it's not her fault your tank is bad.

Not melee unfriendly, maybe you lose a bit of DPS but it's not a mechanic that only hits melee ... therefore it quite literally isn't "melee unfriendly"

I'm not saying you are incorrect in everything you say, but you clearly do not understand the meaning of melee unfriendly

[Deleted]

Blizzard said that they would no loner design encounters that forced specific group compositions - but try doing Kara with full melee, it is a nightmare.

Curator, Shade of Medivh, and Mana Devourer are some of the most melee unfriendly fights that exist in five man content. They all have major abilities that basically mean 'run away from the boss'. As such melee stacked groups have vastly inferior uptime on these final encounters.

Maiden, perhaps more than any other, exemplifies the 'lets make life harder for melee' design with the 'make sure you run really far away from the boss this time' mechanic - only to be outdone by Viz'aduum that includes the 'run far away and wait quite a while with your debuff in the corner' crowning achievement right there.

6 out of 9 melee unfriendly fights. When did their encounter design team decide to do this?

Completed Karazhan, Nightbane included in less than 2h on release day with a full melee group. Git gud

[Chrno]

Why would you do a dungeon with all melee unless it was luck of the draw. There's a reason why there's melee and range... to mix the group up.

this right here.

[Deleted]

Be a beast Hunter, and you can just literally faceroll through it.

[deadman1]

I'm not saying you are incorrect in everything you say, but you clearly do not understand the meaning of melee unfriendly

Quite the opposite, if "having mechanics" is melee unfriendly, then the entire game is unfriendly to everyone.

Melee unfriendly implies that it picks on melee more often than anyone else, which is not the case in Kara.

[Deleted]

Quite the opposite, if "having mechanics" is melee unfriendly, then the entire game is unfriendly to everyone.

Melee unfriendly implies that it picks on melee more often than anyone else, which is not the case in Kara.

Let me explain this to you then, since you have a hard time understanding it.

A mechanic that makes you run out of melee range, and stand there for some time waiting for a debuff to expire, is a melee unfriendly mechanic, as ranged can obviously dps while waiting for the debuff to expire, but melee cant.

Are you getting it now? It doesnt have to be a mechanic that targes melee more often then ranged. It just has to be a mechanic that punnishes melee more then ranged when they get it

[saidolol]

did kara with full melee group, wiped maybe 3 times total, l2p issue.
edit: also with 3 pugs

[Eazy]

One group kicked me out because I was doing "just" 400k DPS on trash, instead of 450k they required. But yeah - like there wasn't AoE in the melee range I should've avoid.

Everyone else was ranged(only DH tank).

[Darsey]

As a BM Hunter, I delt about as much damage as the other 2 combined because of the 100% up time I got.

Sadly, I did a late night run and servers reset when we ware otw to last boss, so can't say anything about him, but the first 7 bosses reminded me why I don't want to play any other kind of DPS but BM.

[deadman1]

Let me explain this to you then, since you have a hard time understanding it.

Welcome to my blocklist. I simlpy don't converse with people that can't converse without having to insult people it's pathetic.

A mechanic that makes you run out of melee range, and stand there for some time waiting for a debuff to expire, is a melee unfriendly mechanic, as ranged can obviously dps while waiting for the debuff to expire, but melee cant.

Having to move as ranged is the same as melee being out of melee range.

Deal with being wrong, save face. It's less embarrassing.

Are you getting it now? It doesnt have to be a mechanic that targes melee more often then ranged. It just has to be a mechanic that punnishes melee more then ranged when they get it

I vehemently disagree. Melee unfriendly implicitly implies that it's more UNFRIENDLY to melee than anyone else.

[Noctus78]

Everyone has to move ... lol

I think the point about having 3 melee dps to curator is that a lot of the time you aren't able to dps the adds at all, because they are in a pool of crap, or just teleported themself away again and you have to run around some pools of crap to reach it. Therefor it can be overwhelming fast.

Shade was somewhat tricky with 3 melee dps and a tank when flame of wrath goes off as it can happen that the rings touch eachother.

Overall not bad for melee besides. perhaps a bit more dps downtime on some encounters.

[Dasn]

learn 2 play, my friend