DPS trinket still drop for Disc, does it have sense?

[Deleted]

Yup fellow Disc priests,

in last two weeks i dropped about 4 DPS trinkets, the last one from the class hall chest today.

They are nerfed for us, and they are even more nerfed on healing side.
Does this still have sense? They are really bad for us, easily replaceable with 30 lesser item levels with Int\Haste for example.
If they are so heavily nerfed are they still suppose to drop with a game design idea like "Hey disc, those trinkets are not really for you" ?

Just for discussion, it's not a rant

[Krbl]

At least you can use them for your shadow off spec.

[Deleted]

At least you can use them for your shadow off spec.

But i don't want to play my shadow offspec

[longxia]

I have so many DPS trinkets, I tried them and looked at the meters - they might as well be level 60 trinkets I found on a transmog run of Molten Core.

If Blizzard are going to make them so incredibly useless for Disc then they need to not clog up our loot tables as booby prizes. Maybe we could have new loot specialization options: Discipline-healing or Discipline-damage.

The latter option would then quickly become known as Discipline-retard, (sorry no disrespect to those with intellectual disabilities).

[Jimjam38]

yeah they've definitely over-nerfed them. I don't think it was warranted either, there aren't really any situations where the AoE trinkets could be exploited in raids, and in 5mans it's would be a welcome bit of assistance. Idk, I think it was entirely a kneejerk by blizard when they realised it wasn't doing what they expected, and were seriously underestimating the value of mana trinkets for us in raids.

[pseudoJ]

The fact that fire breath food has comparable (if not higher) dmg increase than dps trinkets could be a sign for Blizzard that they went too far...

[Helelos]

Week 3: 880 titanforged Horrorslime trinket drops

Week 4: 880 titanforged Horrorslime trinket with speed drops

Literally literally

[anon5123]

Yeah, it was a bit OP how damage trinkets were doing 10-12% of our damage back in beta, but now they're doing 1-3% of our damage...way too much of a nerf IMO.

I agree that damage trinkets should not drop for Disc, because of how utterly useless they are. Stat stick trinkets are better, and for raids, mana trinkets are infinitely better.

[Franarok]

I don't think it is op at all since there are some dps classes with trinkets doing nearly that number. On us is a 10% because we do less damage.
On a tank wearing that dps trinket will do also about a 10% or more of their total damage.

Also if you use a dps trinket you are not using mana ones. I think that compensate the extra damage.

Damn, they are useless and made us lose the chance of other equip

[Jimjam38]

I don't think it is op at all since there are some dps classes with trinkets doing nearly that number. On us is a 10% because we do less damage.
On a tank wearing that dps trinket will do also about a 10% or more of their total damage.

Also if you use a dps trinket you are not using mana ones. I think that compensate the extra damage.

Damn, they are useless and made us lose the chance of other equip

No, the dps absolutely does not compensate the amount of mana regen we lose, especially if you're dropping Amalgam's or Promises for it.

They are, however, comparable to 'healing' trinkets, (e.g, nagalfar flare, Vial of Nightmare Fog, etc) - those typically do between 3% and 5% of my healing when I use them. When you consider that the DPS trinkets convert to atonement on multiple people, that 1-3% probably amounts to at least 3% of our total healing on average, however because it's RNG, if it procs at bad times it'll be way less, and if it procs at good times it's a lot more.

The AoE trinkets have been demolished though, not only is the damage so much worse than for our single target dps trinkets (which are already pretty bad), but the RNG proc is actually so bad, I used them for several dungeons when i first got "Corrupted Starlight" and it would CONSTANTLY proc after most of the trash pack was dead. Absolutely terrible, could NOT get it to proc on a pull, even if I waited a long time between pulls so that it's rppm timer could reset. I swear there's something sketchy in the script that stops them proccing immediately on a trash pull.

[Disciplined]

No, the dps absolutely does not compensate the amount of mana regen we lose, especially if you're dropping Amalgam's or Promises for it.

They are, however, comparable to 'healing' trinkets, (e.g, nagalfar flare, Vial of Nightmare Fog, etc) - those typically do between 3% and 5% of my healing when I use them. When you consider that the DPS trinkets convert to atonement on multiple people, that 1-3% probably amounts to at least 3% of our total healing on average, however because it's RNG, if it procs at bad times it'll be way less, and if it procs at good times it's a lot more.

The AoE trinkets have been demolished though, not only is the damage so much worse than for our single target dps trinkets (which are already pretty bad), but the RNG proc is actually so bad, I used them for several dungeons when i first got "Corrupted Starlight" and it would CONSTANTLY proc after most of the trash pack was dead. Absolutely terrible, could NOT get it to proc on a pull, even if I waited a long time between pulls so that it's rppm timer could reset. I swear there's something sketchy in the script that stops them proccing immediately on a trash pull.

If you increase damage by 1-3% you are not gonna increase your total healing by 3%+, it's gonna increase atonenent healing by 1-3% which will be 0.5-2% of total healing (depending on the ratio of atonement healing to total healing)

[Franarok]

If you increase damage by 1-3% you are not gonna increase your total healing by 3%+, it's gonna increase atonenent healing by 1-3% which will be 0.5-2% of total healing (depending on the ratio of atonement healing to total healing)

Indeed. A standar dps trinket is not so powerful. Not only dont have a mana trinket (specially a hard one since the discipline hard mana issue), you must realice that the proc may no jump when you always need.

They should revert the huge s***** nerf OR make no part of disicpline loot the dps trinkets. Now it is so useless as if they add healer trinkets into tanks loot

[Jimjam38]

If you increase damage by 1-3% you are not gonna increase your total healing by 3%+, it's gonna increase atonenent healing by 1-3% which will be 0.5-2% of total healing (depending on the ratio of atonement healing to total healing)

Not quite, because it depends on your Atonement count when the trinket procs. If it procs at low atonement count, it might not even increase total healing by 0.5-2%, but if it procs at high atonement count, it could be well over 3%.

[Disciplined]

Not quite, because it depends on your Atonement count when the trinket procs. If it procs at low atonement count, it might not even increase total healing by 0.5-2%, but if it procs at high atonement count, it could be well over 3%.

Thing is you have no control over it, so it's just gonna average out to the average...

[Franarok]

Indeed, that is because I cant understand su HUGE nerf (because is not like if them do a bit less dps... )

Specially since when, for example, tanks could took them and the damage proc are not nerfed. Is the best for them? no. But because their random factor, neither are the best for us, but is a cool way to help on dps while providing some healing with luck

[phoenixia]

The fact that fire breath food has comparable (if not higher) dmg increase than dps trinkets could be a sign for Blizzard that they went too far...

Oh don't worry about that, firebreath food as been nerfed to the ground for us with 7.1

[Franarok]

Oh don't worry about that, firebreath food as been nerfed to the ground for us with 7.1

That was a really dirty move from blizz...

Gues they dont want at all that discipline do dps. Maybe they are regreting of the change they did on the class? They nerfed all extra sources of damage on us.

If it was because the extra healing, they only needed drop the heal effects from damage procs from fod and trinkets.


Maybe all have a secret and twisted reason...but for now I only feel a bit pissed of being the only class with such specific nerfs

[pseudoJ]

Oh don't worry about that, firebreath food as been nerfed to the ground for us with 7.1

Oh I know... I suppose that was one way to "fix" this issue

[Jimjam38]

That was a really dirty move from blizz...

Gues they dont want at all that discipline do dps. Maybe they are regreting of the change they did on the class? They nerfed all extra sources of damage on us.

If it was because the extra healing, they only needed drop the heal effects from damage procs from fod and trinkets.


Maybe all have a secret and twisted reason...but for now I only feel a bit pissed of being the only class with such specific nerfs

I don't think they ever really intended for disc to 'do dps' to any meaningful amount. They intended for us to heal through doing damage, but for our main job to be healing, for us to be a competitive healer, and for our damage contribution to be minimal. They're well aware that a class that is a true 50/50 split between healer and dps is never going to be viable.

My impression of the nerfs to trinkets and food damage procs was to keep them balanced relative to other trinkets and food, in terms of how much they increased our healing, not our damage.
Consider a comparison between Naglfar Fare (3 RPPM) and Oakheart's Gnarled Root (2 RPPM)

On average, assuming negligible healing from the HoT component, the Nagalfar Fare will do 75k*3= 225k Healing per minute = 3.75k hps
On the other hand, assuming it wasn't nerfed Oakheart's Gnarled Root will do 125k*2=250k damage per minute = 4.17k dps.
Now, 44% of that damage is converted into atonement healing, so ignoring overhealing and assuming zero mastery we would get 4.17*0.44 = 1.83k hps, PER atonement.
We can safely sit at a minimum average of 5 atonements, so at minimum that will provide 1.83*5=9.15k hps, ignoring overhealing. This is why our damage procs have been nerfed by ~66%, because if you take 33% of that you get 9.15*0.33 = 3.02k hps, as well as 1.37k dps. This is assuming a minimum of 5 atonements when it procs, and obviously it won't be 100% effective healing, but you can see that it's now roughly in-line with the 'healing' trinket's value.
But we have the potential for it to proc at 15+ atonements in a raid, which would give us 3x the value it would if it procs at 5 atonements, or up to 9k hps. That makes it potentially 3x better than the healing trinkets and that's AFTER it was nerfed. If it wasn't nerfed, and procced at 15+ atonements, we could get up to 27.45k hps from it, which would be almost 9x better than a 'healing' trinket. However, the random proc makes the likelihood of getting the full potential out very unlikely, so on average we won't be getting nearly as much. So considering the RNG, I think a 66% nerf was a little high, but a 50% nerf would probably have been very fair.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I don't think they ever really intended for disc to 'do dps' to any meaningful amount. They intended for us to heal through doing damage, but for our main job to be healing, for us to be a competitive healer, and for our damage contribution to be minimal. They're well aware that a class that is a true 50/50 split between healer and dps is never going to be viable.

My impression of the nerfs to trinkets and food damage procs was to keep them balanced relative to other trinkets and food, in terms of how much they increased our healing, not our damage.
Consider a comparison between Naglfar Fare (3 RPPM) and Oakheart's Gnarled Root (2 RPPM)

On average, assuming negligible healing from the HoT component, the Nagalfar Fare will do 75k*3= 225k Healing per minute = 3.75k hps
On the other hand, assuming it wasn't nerfed Oakheart's Gnarled Root will do 125k*2=250k damage per minute = 4.17k dps.
Now, 44% of that damage is converted into atonement healing, so ignoring overhealing and assuming zero mastery we would get 4.17*0.44 = 1.83k hps, PER atonement.
We can safely sit at a minimum average of 5 atonements, so at minimum that will provide 1.83*5=9.15k hps, ignoring overhealing. This is why our damage procs have been nerfed by ~66%, because if you take 33% of that you get 9.15*0.33 = 3.02k hps, as well as 1.37k dps. This is assuming a minimum of 5 atonements when it procs, and obviously it won't be 100% effective healing, but you can see that it's now roughly in-line with the 'healing' trinket's value.
But we have the potential for it to proc at 15+ atonements in a raid, which would give us 3x the value it would if it procs at 5 atonements, or up to 9k hps. That makes it potentially 3x better than the healing trinkets and that's AFTER it was nerfed. If it wasn't nerfed, and procced at 15+ atonements, we could get up to 27.45k hps from it, which would be almost 9x better than a 'healing' trinket. However, the random proc makes the likelihood of getting the full potential out very unlikely, so on average we won't be getting nearly as much. So considering the RNG, I think a 66% nerf was a little high, but a 50% nerf would probably have been very fair.

While your post is thoughtful you miss Blizzard's meta-judgement. Disc in Legion is incredibly similar to Pandarian disc only Discipline priests in Pandaria were OP. And the Discpline scaled too well in WOD making them must-have for all progression guilds. So now they just always nerf Discipline priests so that they will never scale above being a bottom-of-the-pack-healer despite requiring more skill to play.

I don't mind that they nerfed Disc priests but their design is a f*cking joke. Discipline is the highest skill-cap healing class and are near the bottom of the pack in progression (no top tier raiding guild took one to Xavius). They also have almost no triage healing ability making them mediocre for Mythic Plus too. Almost every other top healer like Druids and Shamans and even Holy Priests can do way more healing when called for AND also do dps during downtime to regen mana. I can do about 50-75dps on my other healers while beating my discpline priest on meters for the equivalent gear. It's ridiculous.

Blizzard has been punishing skill for a long time and this patch is even worse. Discipline design is just one example of that.