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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    That's better than zero progression...

    - - - Updated - - -



    How do you expect Blizzard to keep up with consumption of new, original content short of releasing a new dungeon or quests every single week? You're basically saying that unless they can do the impossible, progression is meaningless, which is idiotic.
    Yet they managed to do it in vanilla and TBC. The answer is a) to make sure there is a decent amount of content, b) that the players aren't able to burn through the content too fast by providing actual and adequate challenge on it and c) to provide an actual fun, deep and interesting battle system, suited for group play.

    In legion there is a decent amount of content, but you typically run over it way too fast and the battle system isn't at all suited for PVE group play. Blizzards tries to offset this with a so called gear progression (eg making you grind for something you had baseline/way faster during the older expansions), but only the less exigents players will be satisfied with that.

    Every dungeon raid and dungeon of legion should have been like karazhan to make it interesting.

    It drives me crazy to see people cry about replayability of dungeons when one of the biggest concerns was how easily outdated they got?
    The only way to satisfy you seems to release 10 dungeons a month.

    Redoing content has been a part of MMO's since the first one was released. If you don't like this, then maybe you should stop playing MMO.
    The issue with the replayability of the dungeons has more to do with how the battle system has been tuned since WOTLK (very little emphasis on player coordination and cooperation in the use of their abilities) than the "difficulty". Back in vanilla and TBC you had to adapt your gameplay to the players of your group, as you do in a game such as league of legends. You also had to strategize before most bosses. Since WOTLK dungeons are a matter of AOEing mobs to death while having a relevant ilvl, no mater what your group composition is, as such the replayability is very low (as you re doing the same thing no matter who you re playing with, which is a huge design flaw for a portion of the game based on group play).
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-11-01 at 02:00 PM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    Yet they managed to do it in vanilla and TBC. The answer is a) to make sure there is a decent amount of content and b) that the players aren't able to burn through the content too fast by providing actual and adequate challenge on it. These two combined reasons are why vanilla and TBC lasted that long, and why people started to actually leave the game starting from WOTLK.
    Ah, yes, the adequate challenge of farming content 10+levels below you in order to get that one piece of resistance gear you need...
    But in all seriousness, you are comparing apples with oranges here. During Vanilla and TBC, most players were a lot less experienced and had vastly reduced amounts of resources available. That, coupled with artificial difficulty resulting from bugs, things like resistances (which you could work for as content, yes, but they usually relied on RNG drops just as well) and just plain bad design (obsolete/broken classes) leads to more longevity, yes. I mean back then guilds might be stuck at bosses whose only relevant strategy is "run out when you have a debuff" for weeks. Is that "more content"? Would it be "more content" in today's environment, too?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    Seems to me that the fanboi's are the ones who seem to be the most clueless. You're the one who's told me soo much more was done in Legion, and yet i fail to see anywhere in your post where I was wrong. Its pretty much the same dribble over an over. WQ's are fresh new and exciting, Mythic+ and Mythic Keystones is fresh an New. What next, Karazhan going to be brand spanking new?
    Such a compelling argument you present yourself.

    If you need explaining as to how much there is to do OBJECTIVELY in Legion, you're beyond help. Has nothing to do with being a "fanboy", just a person with basic brain capacity. YOU not wanting to do WoW stuff but still staying with the game because of a weak will doesn't alter shit. Same as how WoD having fuck all in terms of meaningful content outside of raids wasn't changed by those that still managed to find reasons to play.

    Again, playing WoW but expecting something else (your bitching about "NEW" without any clarification), is moronic... no, retarded even. No matter what is added to WoW, people of your ilk can always argue that it isn't "NEW" because it'll always be created within the boundaries of the game. People that don't want that, can GTFO already since WoW shouldn't be tailored to fit people that don't want to play WoW.

    WQ'S = new to Legion
    Mythic + system = New to Legion
    Scaling tech = New to Legion
    Wardrobe system = New to Legion
    Artifacts = New to Legion

    It's all still WoW though. Too bad for numpties that don't want WoW that the game isn't made for them.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2016-11-01 at 02:04 PM.

  4. #284
    No, make it stop. Why is this thread still going on?

  5. #285
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Ah, yes, the adequate challenge of farming content 10+levels below you in order to get that one piece of resistance gear you need...
    But in all seriousness, you are comparing apples with oranges here. During Vanilla and TBC, most players were a lot less experienced and had vastly reduced amounts of resources available. That, coupled with artificial difficulty resulting from bugs, things like resistances (which you could work for as content, yes, but they usually relied on RNG drops just as well) and just plain bad design (obsolete/broken classes) leads to more longevity, yes. I mean back then guilds might be stuck at bosses whose only relevant strategy is "run out when you have a debuff" for weeks. Is that "more content"? Would it be "more content" in today's environment, too?
    This argument again ? There were little to no resistance gear to farm in TBC (the little you had to farm in that regard, for 3 bosses on 2 different raid tiers, you could do in under 1 week) and the class balance was actually good (every class had their purposes in PVE, and yes, even hybrids). Also, I don't buy that "the players were less experienced" thing.

    I m not sure you actually played TBC if you genuinely believe the longevity of the content was tied to poor class balance (you typically only had issues in sunwell if you didn't have enough of some classes, but it is something also true today in the current mythic raid design, where the "bring the FOTM" is the norm).

    (which you could work for as content, yes, but they usually relied on RNG drops just as well)
    I fail to see what you re talking about as in TBC most resistance gear was crafted. Plus you only needed resistance gear on 3 bosses (hydross, alar and mother sharaz).
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-11-01 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #286
    You know it is a pretty fucking retarded idea to start your argument with a sweeping insult.

    Just you know, pointing out that if you ever want to actually present your argument as someone who is the least bit intelligent, opening with an insult is not the best way.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    Also, I don't buy that "the players were less experienced" thing.
    During BC perhaps, but during Classic it was extremely true. Most people were busy with orienteering the leveling content for a huge chunk of the time before BC.

  8. #288
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    I think the numbers actually agree with the OP.




    Ouch!!!!!!

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post


    The issue with the replayability of the dungeons has more to do with how the battle system has been tuned since WOTLK (very little emphasis on player coordination and cooperation in the use of their abilities) than the "difficulty". Back in vanilla and TBC you had to adapt your gameplay to the players of your group, as you do in a game such as league of legends. You also had to strategize before most bosses. Since WOTLK dungeons are a matter of AOEing mobs to death while having a relevant ilvl, no mater what your group composition is, as such the replayability is very low.
    What are you even talking about?

    In vanilla and TBC you only had to write "you cc this, mage this, and that guy that". Simply because the mobs would kill you otherwise. That's all the coordination you needed and you didn't have to have any voice com.
    You adapted nothing to other players. You simply made the best group composition. Need hard cc? Ignore all classes that didn't have it when making a group.
    You did not strategize before bosses. You didn't have to since most of them were tank and spank. Others, like General Drakkisath(spelling?) from UBRS, required role asigment, but because it was a 15 man raid doing it. Just like any raid, you need people doing certain roles inside an encounter.

    Why didn't you AOE packs in vanilla and TBC?
    -Lack of AOE control abilities: stuns, grips, slows, etc.
    -AOE skills were for large groups of mobs (5+) since single target focusing was much more efficient. If you are going to ST anyway, CC takes away any extra difficulty. Also, not all classes had AOE potential.
    -Tank agro problems. Tanks had trouble agroing 1 mob that was being focused, if people started cleaving and AOEing mobs would go out of control.

    In mythic+:

    If you are aoeing everything down it means you are doing trivial levels mythic+ in terms of your gear.
    Afixes from the higher levels change completely how to tackle the instance. AOEing packs when raging is activated, not controling adds so the tank can reset necrotic stacks, etc, can lead to easy wipes. Fortitude buff on pulls making them much much more difficult to kill usually making you to reconsider AOEing and STing threats instead.
    Tyrannical affix making everything deadly and prolonging the boss fights longer.

    With the current system, each week you need to reconsider your toolkit when going inside instances. The RNG element involved in what mythic + you get after completing one also makes you consider more posibilities.

    I agree with you that untill legion dungeons since WotLK are shit. SinceLegion, i've never had a better time doing dungeons.

  10. #290
    When the majority of MMO-C posters aren't complaining about the current state of the game, then you know you are playing the game in one of it's best moments. That's how I feel with Legion at the moment. It has been an absolute pleasure to be a part of the first few months of the game, to watch my artifact slowly evolve in power and appearance, to finish a +6, then a +7, then a +9, and of course to raid mythic with a chill guild. And one thing that will definitely always stick with me is Suramar and the Nightfallen campaign. I don't think I have ever felt so personally attached to a storyline as I have with the taking back of the Nighthold.

    If I had to quit next week for whatever reason, I would look back on Legion with very fond memories.

  11. #291
    It's amusing the number of people touting mythic+ as the best thing ever. It's the same dungeons we ran on normal and heroic. Except now with 20+ gradually condescending (yes, condescending) levels. It isn't very appealing to me doing the same dungeons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over with only an increase in difficulty and item level. It gets extremely boring and repetitious. Superfluous even.

  12. #292
    Deleted
    What are you even talking about?

    In vanilla and TBC you only had to write "you cc this, mage this, and that guy that". Simply because the mobs would kill you otherwise. That's all the coordination you needed and you didn't have to have any voice com.
    You adapted nothing to other players. You simply made the best group composition. Need hard cc? Ignore all classes that didn't have it when making a group.
    You did not strategize before bosses. You didn't have to since most of them were tank and spank. Others, like General Drakkisath(spelling?) from UBRS, required role asigment, but because it was a 15 man raid doing it. Just like any raid, you need people doing certain roles inside an encounter.
    I m not sure you played TBC if you believe what you write, as strategizing on heroic bosses was a thing (especially before the 2.1 patch). Please notice I m only talking about vanilla as it was the same battle system, if only less refined, than in TBC. In TBC, a lot of the shortcomings of vanilla were fixed (most specs could actually be played) while still providing a game on which content had a very decent longevity (even for the best players).

    In vanilla and TBC you only had to write "you cc this, mage this, and that guy that". Simply because the mobs would kill you otherwise. That's all the coordination you needed and you didn't have to have any voice com.
    That's still something more than in the modern wow. Also no it wasn't the only thing you had to coordinate (as resources managements was very much a thing).

    If you are aoeing everything down it means you are doing trivial levels mythic+ in terms of your gear.
    Afixes from the higher levels change completely how to tackle the instance. AOEing packs when raging is activated, not controling adds so the tank can reset necrotic stacks, etc, can lead to easy wipes. Fortitude buff on pulls making them much much more difficult to kill usually making you to reconsider AOEing and STing threats instead.
    Tyrannical affix making everything deadly and prolonging the boss fights longer.

    With the current system, each week you need to reconsider your toolkit when going inside instances. The RNG element involved in what mythic + you get after completing one also makes you consider more posibilities.
    While it is true trash handling is harder in higher mythic +, it still doesn't change the fact that the heavily pruned toolkits of the modern wow classes are unadapted to the task at hand (modern classes have a lot of abilities and spells who deal AOE damage). It's like giving you a bulldozer to dig a small hole to plant something in your garden. Furthermore, in higher mythics the bosses lack the compelling and interesting boss mechanics older bosses used to have.If you want to convince yourself of that, please compare the bosses of the new karazhan with the bosses of your typical legion mythic+ dungeon.

    Also the "progression" is an artificial one as in mythic plus dungeons, you actually already saw the bosses of said dungeons before, if only easier. In TBC and vanilla the progression was interesting because you were progressing toward things you never saw before.

    Why didn't you AOE packs in vanilla and TBC?
    -Lack of AOE control abilities: stuns, grips, slows, etc.
    -AOE skills were for large groups of mobs (5+) since single target focusing was much more efficient. If you are going to ST anyway, CC takes away any extra difficulty. Also, not all classes had AOE potential.
    -Tank agro problems. Tanks had trouble agroing 1 mob that was being focused, if people started cleaving and AOEing mobs would go out of control.
    What you re writing aren't issues, it was how the game was designed. And yet it did lead to a lot more coordination between the players of the group. And I m not even talking about the need of actually building your group to optimize healing/DPS (you typically had to bring 1 healer, 1 tank, 2 pure DPS and one hybrid support DPS to boss all the other classes), which has vanished since then.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-11-01 at 02:30 PM.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasontheking1234 View Post
    Have you unlocked every achivement? Did you complete kara? Did you complete mythic EN? Did you collect every Bpet? Did you unlock EVERYTHING for your artifact, and I mean..everything? Did you get every mount in the game? Did you kill gul'dan yet? Did you beat helya? Unlock +10 Mythic keystone? No? Ok then.
    What's that got to do with anything?

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    gear progression =/= content progression.

    You can give player all the gear progression of the universe, if that gear progression isn't tied to meaningful content progression (eg a steady flow of new, non rehashed content) then it is meaningless.
    t has been like since the start of WoW. Possibly even before WoW. It is not specific to Legion.

  15. #295
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Hellscream View Post
    You know it is a pretty fucking retarded idea to start your argument with a sweeping insult.

    Just you know, pointing out that if you ever want to actually present your argument as someone who is the least bit intelligent, opening with an insult is not the best way.
    Following your own advice sometimes is harder than one thinks

  16. #296
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    t has been like since the start of WoW. Possibly even before WoW. It is not specific to Legion.
    Well no it hasn't, content progression and gear progression has only been distinct in wow since legion. In wow you used to have a vertical content and gear progression (meaning the newer content drops better gear than the older content, but that newer content is also harder and is meant to be completed after the older one).

    In legion, you can virtually outgear most content without even setting foot in it.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-11-01 at 02:34 PM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    Yet they managed to do it in vanilla and TBC. The answer is a) to make sure there is a decent amount of content, b) that the players aren't able to burn through the content too fast by providing actual and adequate challenge on it and c) to provide an actual fun, deep and interesting battle system, suited for group play.

    In legion there is a decent amount of content, but you typically run over it way too fast and the battle system isn't at all suited for PVE group play. Blizzards tries to offset this with a so called gear progression (eg making you grind for something you had baseline/way faster during the older expansions), but only the less exigents players will be satisfied with that.

    Every dungeon raid and dungeon of legion should have been like karazhan to make it interesting.



    The issue with the replayability of the dungeons has more to do with how the battle system has been tuned since WOTLK (very little emphasis on player coordination and cooperation in the use of their abilities) than the "difficulty". Back in vanilla and TBC you had to adapt your gameplay to the players of your group, as you do in a game such as league of legends. You also had to strategize before most bosses. Since WOTLK dungeons are a matter of AOEing mobs to death while having a relevant ilvl, no mater what your group composition is, as such the replayability is very low (as you re doing the same thing no matter who you re playing with, which is a huge design flaw for a portion of the game based on group play).
    They didn't do anything in TBC or Vanilla besides gate raid content behind arbitrary resistance gear farming so I don't have any clue as to what the fuck you're talking about. There was no steady stream of content. You couldn't have possibly shoehorned any more horseshit into your post. The idea that the "battle system" or raid fights were more complicated in Vanilla or TBC is laugh out loud funny and completely irrelevant to the amount of content.
    Last edited by Deathquoi; 2016-11-01 at 02:38 PM.
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  18. #298
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    They didn't do anything in TBC or Vanilla besides gate raid content behind arbitrary resistance gear farming so I don't have any clue as to what the fuck you're talking about. There was no steady stream of content.
    Content gated behind resistance gear farming in TBC, yeah right. Revisionism is a thing I see. Having played TBC and completed sunwell before its nerf I can tell you the resistance gear farming you re talking about didn't last more than a few days. And yet it took players month of raiding (eg not month of farming) to reach the end of the T5. Because in TBC you only had to equip the tanks with resistance gear for hydross or alar and it was really fast and easy to craft shadow resistance gear for mother sharaz.

    Also, while there was indeed no steady stream of content, there was more baseline content in both vanilla and TBC.

    The idea that the "battle system" or raid fights were more complicated in Vanilla or TBC is laugh out loud funny and completely irrelevant to the amount of content.
    You have to think about things to actually understand why things are linked. Also, it is a fact that the battle system was deeper back then, just take a look at the amount of mechanics they pruned over the years to make the game only a micromanagement one in which the players only have a minimal amount of thinking to do.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-11-01 at 02:45 PM.

  19. #299
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by IntellectuallyChallenged View Post
    It's amusing the number of people touting mythic+ as the best thing ever.
    Why is it amusing?
    The feedback from us, the community has been about making dungeons relevant again. Now they are.
    I think that's pretty good example of devs listening to our feedback and acting on it. I think it's a good change.

    It's repetitive, yes. But then again, you're playing a MMORPG that is 15 years old and has very clear MUD pedigree. What did you expect it to be?

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by jasontheking1234 View Post
    Look, I see many problems in legion. However, I'm still playing it. All because I have lots to do still. I still need prestiege, gear, achivements, pets, artifact knowledge, artifact power, appearences, artifact ranks, and more.

    Legion has no content...LUL!
    You pretty much made his point right there...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by trm90 View Post
    When the majority of MMO-C posters aren't complaining about the current state of the game, then you know you are playing the game in one of it's best moments. That's how I feel with Legion at the moment. It has been an absolute pleasure to be a part of the first few months of the game, to watch my artifact slowly evolve in power and appearance, to finish a +6, then a +7, then a +9, and of course to raid mythic with a chill guild. And one thing that will definitely always stick with me is Suramar and the Nightfallen campaign. I don't think I have ever felt so personally attached to a storyline as I have with the taking back of the Nighthold.

    If I had to quit next week for whatever reason, I would look back on Legion with very fond memories.
    Haha, wtf. This post...

    IMO Artifact Weapons are one of the worst things about Legion. but Okay then.

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