When to pop StM?

[Thaylen]

I've finished my second week of raiding as Shadow and I'm still struggling with when to pop StM. I have a time to die weakaura now and was roughly shooting for around 90 seconds left in the fight.

Here's my issue though... it seems as though when I'm ready to pop StM based on time to die / boss remaining health, it is a bad time to do so because I'm already about halfway in a void form. So do I:

1) Pop StM immediately anyhow and hope I can build the insanity up to last the 90 seconds,
2) Get out of current voidform asap, build up to a fresh one and pop StM
3) Continue my current voidform out as usual and then pop StM at the next fresh voidform
4) Pop StM once my current voidform drops but before my next fresh (and last) begins (not even sure if this is possible?)

My last raid I was taking option #3 since I didn't know the answer, but after looking at the logs, it was a bad choice. On Ursoc, someone comparable to me in every way did nearly 100k dps more than I did by the end of the fight and it was all just due to them popping StM at the prime point and me popping it far too late (my overall dps was more than theirs prior to them popping StM).

[Djriff]

You need to plan it out more. I start planning my StM about 200 seconds before i'll pop it. That way i'll have Vtor up for it and PI when I need it. Also it's completely worth dropping out of voidform before StM by just letting it fall off ie not casting then pop StM and get back into voidform very quickly. You'll more than make up the lack of casting within 30 seconds of StM.

You shouldn't pop StM in a voidform unless you know it's your last Voidform and you torrented right at the start otherwise you'll just die super early and waste DPS.

[Tanned]

First, how long you stay in STM will depend on your planning throughout the fight. Decide a few things how many seconds in Voidform you are going for and how many times will you be wanting to Void Torrent.

Second, in general you should time popping STM with 100s to 120s left in the fight. Your planning for your STM should start at 180s left in the fight at minimum. At 180s until the boss dies you should no longer cast Void Torrent or Power Infusion so that you have them up for STM.

Third, during STM decide when you're going to spend your get out of jail free cards. In general, those are Dispersion, Void Torrent, Power Infusion and the jewelcrafting neck (if you have it).

If you are not going for an aggressive Surrender (120+ stacks), I recommend using Void Torrent at the start of your Surrender, and then again at 60+ stacks when both Shadow Word: Death charges are down. If you are going to an aggressive surrender then I recommend using Void Torrent immediately, followed by a Void Bolt and then Dispersion, Void Torrent again on CD, PI when it looks like you're going to die at 80+ stacks, Dispersion when it comes off CD and when both SW: D charges and Voidbolt are on CD, and the Void Torrent as soon as its available again.

[Thaylen]

Thanks. That helps. And has left me with a palm print on my forehead as it sparked a D'oh moment. I don't know why I didn't realize that StM outside of voidform would benefit build up of insanity TO voidform with no detrimental effect.

Recognizing that haste, movement needs, and skill levels play a part, what is the rough range of time for people to maintain StM on fights? I was thinking 90-120 seconds? Is that far off?

And regarding Vtor, the strat is still to use it very early on in the voidform, correct? I suppose this causes another question for me when MB is off CD right as I hit 100 insanity... generally I hit voidform first to give MB dmg the voidform dmg, then VB, then Vtor. Should I hit MB out of voidform, then voidform, then Vtor?

EDIT: Thanks Tanned, we posted in parallel. Your post answers most of the above.

[Ocedic]

It's something you just need practice on. When you first start out, assuming you're in a learning guild of around 150-250k DPS people, just pop it at execution phase (35%). Get in the habit of setting up your S2M by not using Vtor in the voidform before you want to S2M. As gear improves and people start doing 250-400k DPS, you will start popping it earlier and earlier.

To answer your additional questions:
- 90-120 stacks is what you should aim for.
- Yes, use Vtor early so that it comes off cooldown. If you're near a haste breakpoint of 3 Vtors you probably want to IMMEDIATELY use Vtor. I have seen some people wait for 1 or 2 void bolts first.

[Thaylen]

Good tips, ty.

I'm in the 150-250k guild type. Only 2/7H at this point. I'm ilvl 849 and my haste is 34.26% (11,133) (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cration/simple)

I'm very much at the point most people started off EN at (maybe even still a few click back).

[2Dee]

As others have mentioned, more planning is required for using STM.

To answer your other questions, you can use STM outside of VF to benefit from the insanity generation. I've done it multiple times to get into VF ASAP

[Ocedic]

Good tips, ty.

I'm in the 150-250k guild type. Only 2/7H at this point. I'm ilvl 849 and my haste is 34.26% (11,133) (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cration/simple)

I'm very much at the point most people started off EN at (maybe even still a few click back).

Your haste is quite good. With a little bit more (36%) you can practice and try for 3 Vtors. But yeah, I'd say use S2M at 30-35% at that stage of progression. This will also change based on how many other executes (Fury Warrior, Shadowpriests) are in your guild, etc. There isn't really a magic number but you can't go wrong with execute phase. When my guild first started out even 35% was too early, and I found myself having to pop it at 25% or so as not to die too early.

[Thaylen]

When you guys are practicing at the target dummy, you don't need to use flasks/pots but are you still consuming the 375+ haste foods before each pull? Not that they are that difficult/expensive to make... it just seems so wasteful.

[Ocedic]

Don't bother. Haste food is good but it shouldn't be the difference between making or breaking it for you.

[Djriff]

Don't bother. Haste food is good but it shouldn't be the difference between making or breaking it for you.

Actually it does matter. When you are trying to reach a breakpoint, 375 haste (700 for pandas) can make a world of difference since that's essentially a free piece of low haste gear. Food is cheap to make anyways.

In regards to the timing of Void Torrent. You want to pop it as early as possible, if you go into Voidform during StM with both dots at or near full duration you should immediately pop Void Torrent. Doing so 5 or so seconds later will result in a shorter StM since it effects the drain stacks your second Vtor is popped at as well as the 3rd. It becomes quite impactful over 125 seconds.

In regards to begin at 100 insanity, at the point Void Eruption > all. Casting mind blast is a waste of a GCD at that point since the damage it does outside of Voidform is meh and you're already capped on insanity.

[Ocedic]

Actually it does matter. When you are trying to reach a breakpoint, 375 haste (700 for pandas) can make a world of difference since that's essentially a free piece of low haste gear. Food is cheap to make anyways.

Well, sure, if it's literally the difference between making cap and not, then do it. But most people aren't in that very specific range.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually it does matter. When you are trying to reach a breakpoint, 375 haste (700 for pandas) can make a world of difference since that's essentially a free piece of low haste gear. Food is cheap to make anyways.

Well, sure, if it's literally the difference between making cap and not, then do it. But most people aren't in that very specific range.

[Djriff]

Well if the food isn't pushing you then yeah it doesn't matter. Since you'd be using crit or mastery food otherwise.

[dmfg]

The cap feels really nebulous. This week I tried dropping some haste to use my 890 oakheart trinket. I'm down to 10900 haste and 22% crit and haven't noticed any difference in my ability to reach 3rd VTor. IIRC the sim profile had about 25% crit? So probably scope to drop even more if needed..

[Djriff]

The cap feels really nebulous. This week I tried dropping some haste to use my 890 oakheart trinket. I'm down to 10900 haste and 22% crit and haven't noticed any difference in my ability to reach 3rd VTor. IIRC the sim profile had about 25% crit? So probably scope to drop even more if needed..

Yeah the actual breakpoint is like 10k haste, there was a weird bug with Mind Blast in simc where the cooldown was longer than it was suppose to be. That's been fixed now and they pushed out new weights yesterday.

[Faildevil]

I think with higher crit and lower haste you are heavily relying on the SA procs.

For myself, I am realy low on crit (18%) but high on haste (37% unbuffed). I am struggling to reach the third VT safe. Sometimes I just die while casting MB around 75-80 stacks.

[Djriff]

Have you already popped PI at that point? You may need to.

[pawsz]

I've finished my second week of raiding as Shadow and I'm still struggling with when to pop StM. I have a time to die weakaura now and was roughly shooting for around 90 seconds left in the fight.

Here's my issue though... it seems as though when I'm ready to pop StM based on time to die / boss remaining health, it is a bad time to do so because I'm already about halfway in a void form. So do I:

1) Pop StM immediately anyhow and hope I can build the insanity up to last the 90 seconds,
2) Get out of current voidform asap, build up to a fresh one and pop StM
3) Continue my current voidform out as usual and then pop StM at the next fresh voidform
4) Pop StM once my current voidform drops but before my next fresh (and last) begins (not even sure if this is possible?)

My last raid I was taking option #3 since I didn't know the answer, but after looking at the logs, it was a bad choice. On Ursoc, someone comparable to me in every way did nearly 100k dps more than I did by the end of the fight and it was all just due to them popping StM at the prime point and me popping it far too late (my overall dps was more than theirs prior to them popping StM).

Here is a good guide by Kuriisu

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Wg25Ij04Q/edit

[Negato]

Yeah the actual breakpoint is like 10k haste, there was a weird bug with Mind Blast in simc where the cooldown was longer than it was suppose to be. That's been fixed now and they pushed out new weights yesterday.

Thanks for this thread has been really helpful. I have a stupid question but what is the negative impact of popping StM mid void form if let's say you already have 20 stacks built up. Wouldn't the increased insanity generation kick in, or am I misunderstanding and you build stacks faster in voidform with StM?

Also sorry to ask but do you have a link to the new stat weights? Last I heard the breakpoint was 12000 haste, is it correctly at 10,000 now? Again sorry for the stupid questions, I main holy but am now maintaining dual shadow.

[pawsz]

Thanks for this thread has been really helpful. I have a stupid question but what is the negative impact of popping StM mid void form if let's say you already have 20 stacks built up. Wouldn't the increased insanity generation kick in, or am I misunderstanding and you build stacks faster in voidform with StM?

Also sorry to ask but do you have a link to the new stat weights? Last I heard the breakpoint was 12000 haste, is it correctly at 10,000 now? Again sorry for the stupid questions, I main holy but am now maintaining dual shadow.

There is no "hard" breakpoint, you need haste until you can use Void Torrent 3x in one surrender to madness.
Depending on bloodlust timing, your ping, your skill etc this can be 10k, 11k or 12k