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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    Siphon Life is a talent, it isn't baseline. Also what you have done is stated that Siphon Life, Harvester of Souls, Drain life, and Healthstone are better than Unending Resolve, that's really stupid--I myself wouldn't do that, compare 1 ability to 4.

    Secondly, healing and mitigation are two different things; I find it surprising that isn't known. It seems like you are asking me to explain to you why a destro lock is a harder target in a typical 3's than an Aff lock, is that what you are asking? I mean I'll do that, it's a lot of typing though so hopefully you will take a second to play through a typical 3's match in your head and then realize these things on your own.

    Edit: Also within the current Aff PvP template Siphon Life heals for roughly 8K per second. I'm not sure I would frame that as a "big plus" lol. The heal from Siphon Life would heal me from 1% to full, as long as I am taking no damage, in just under six minutes.
    It's a talent that you will pretty much always take. If you think it's important to your survivability then argue for it to be baseline in your post. And yes, it's 4 to 1 since that's affliction's toolkit compared to destruction's, add on 3% damage reduction average to destruction if you want.

    Yes of course everyone knows they are different, but in this case they are the things to compare. Destruction is a bit better at mitigating damage by design, and affliction is far better at healing through damage already taken. If you think this is worse by design then say it is and why. It's not a lot of explaining at all, get the destruction lock scared so he pops unending resolve, switch for 8 seconds then come back for the next 52 seconds when they have nothing compared to the affliction warlock.

    8k per second, per target. In a 3s which you are talking about you'd have 3 up. And by itself it's not loads, no, but it's passive and is on top of the other things.

    I'm just trying to be constructive, there's no need for your tone. You could actually make some good points in the original post from what I'm saying. Affliction puts out a good chunk of healing when siphon life is up on multiple targets, corruption is up on multiple targets and you are draining life as a filler. You could have argued that this is great in theory, however since UA doesn't give much dispel protection a lot of your healing is simply dispelled away.
    Last edited by mmocca694fa5de; 2016-11-02 at 12:44 PM.

  2. #22
    The Patient Locknrollen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    If you have input as to the issues addressed I'd love to hear them, can't really do anything with what you gave me. Unless you are referring to grammar and syntax in which case it's hard for me to take advice from someone who produced the sentences you just did
    I believe the input i wouldve written is covered by others. Mostly its the whiny/childish tone of your OP, and comments, that annoys people
    Former highend raider. Now highend moron

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Locknrollen View Post
    I believe the input i wouldve written is covered by others. Mostly its the whiny/childish tone of your OP, and comments, that annoys people
    Thankfully I don't care about that, if I were worried about being labeled "whiny" I wouldn't post feedback at all. I do appreciate you clearing that up though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    It's a talent that you will pretty much always take. If you think it's important to your survivability then argue for it to be baseline in your post.
    I don't think it's important for my survivability at all... You're the one that described it as a "big plus", not me

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    And yes, it's 4 to 1 since that's affliction's toolkit compared to destruction's, add on 3% damage reduction average to destruction if you want.
    ... Is this real? Destro has drain life and healthstone, you know that right? You seem to be trying REALLY hard to pretend Destro has a single survivability tool in their entire fucking box, why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    It's not a lot of explaining at all, get the destruction lock scared so he pops unending resolve, switch for 8 seconds then come back for the next 52 seconds when they have nothing compared to the affliction warlock.
    You trade cooldowns for cooldowns. In your mind is it more benificial to have a cooldown to trade every ONE minute, or every THREE minutes? And false, the destro lock has everything the aff lock does, drain life and healthstone. Once your shield wall is blown you are free to spam cast a quite robust drain life of your own if you wish to do so.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    I don't think it's important for my survivability at all... You're the one that described it as a "big plus", not me
    Well I'd disagree here. And you should have mentioned it in your original post saying it doesn't heal enough if that's the case. If I was a dev reading your original post I'd be thinking there's all this other stuff affliction has which wasn't mentioned which is why there is a difference in cooldown of unending resolve in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    ... Is this real? Destro has drain life and healthstone, you know that right? You seem to be trying REALLY hard to pretend Destro has a single survivability tool in their entire fucking box, why?
    We've been discussing both these points so I didn't think I'd have to spell it out again. The destruction healthstone heals for 300kish, the affliction one heals for 300k + 25% hp, 50% if reap is up + 25/50% every time someone in your party pops theirs. And drain life again heals more for affliction, a lot more with reap souls up, and affliction uses it as part of their core rotation whereas destruction doesn't. There is a difference in drain life and healthstones, hence why it was mentioned as something affliction has over destruction. I thought it would be assumed that I was indicating the differences in those things, rather than what they simply have, if I had been doing the latter I would have mentioned unending resolve on affliction's side as well since they have it too, it's just not as effective as it is for destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    You trade cooldowns for cooldowns. In your mind is it more benificial to have a cooldown to trade every ONE minute, or every THREE minutes? And false, the destro lock has everything the aff lock does, drain life and healthstone. Once your shield wall is blown you are free to spam cast a quite robust drain life of your own if you wish to do so.
    If the question was "would I trade the 1 minute cooldown for 3 minutes if immolate and incinerate passively healed me?" then the answer might well be yes. If you don't think corruption/siphon life/drain life heal enough to make up for the increased cooldown then that's the point you should be making. Not saying "this is 1 minute, this is 3 minutes so the first one is better" while not taking everything into account.

    I joined in with this since it seemed like you wanted feedback on your post, I think there are many things you should have talked about but didn't in your post so it comes across as strong bias. I thought you might have wanted to rewrite your post given what myself and others have said. You have some good points which I agree with, but there are things I disagree with too. The attitude of your post and subsequent replies are the main reasons why any game dev that reads it won't give it the time of day, which is a shame since affliction does need some help.
    Last edited by mmocca694fa5de; 2016-11-02 at 01:46 PM.

  5. #25
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    If any Aff locks want to help me keep this alive I'd appreciate it. Will probably never get a response but it's the last gasp for me after playing Aff since vanilla.

    http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9728805?page=1
    Basically your post is both extremely biased and very often incorrect as well.

    Somehow trying to say that Affliction is on low end of survivability pole compared to Destruction or Demonology falls flat as soon as you realize just how much more powerful Affliction selfhealing is compared to the other 2.

    The fact that Affliction uses Drain Life rotationally and quite a lot at that is not to be underestimated, so somehow pointing at Demo and Destro and asking why they got things they got and not Affliction is a huge case of not justified "grass greener on the other side", they have it because they don't bloody selfheal for even quarter of what Affliction does, unless they go ahead and chose to stop dealing damage... in which case they will still heal quite a bit less.

    Finally your biggest problem is that instead of talking about REAL issues, you make shit up. Of course on Blizz forums you have plenty of "lol he said Blizz are shit and locks are weak LIKE NOW", but it ain't working that well here when you have people who are more reasonable in general than your bread and butter official forum crowd.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    Well I'd disagree here. And you should have mentioned it in your original post saying it doesn't heal enough if that's the case.
    Why? I don’t feel that way nor did I ever claim that, not sure what it is with you and Siphon Life. I don’t see anything especially good or bad about Siphon Life and to my knowledge the warlock community as a whole doesn’t seem to have any strong feelings about the spell. If you want a thread about Siphon Life so fucking badly go make one man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    I joined in with this since it seemed like you wanted feedback on your post…
    I can see how you came to that conclusion from the way I requested that all zero times. Not that I have anything against feedback but I’m really just after what I asked for—bumps. If you don’t share my views don’t bump, games hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    I thought you might have wanted to rewrite your post given what myself and others have said.
    When someone tells me to drain life the melee train to death I typically tend to shy away from believing said person has anything useful to share with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    If I was a dev reading your original post I'd be thinking there's all this other stuff affliction has which wasn't mentioned which is why there is a difference in cooldown of unending resolve in the first place.
    I trust that devs are competent in their knowledge of the game to the point where I do not need to spoon feed them the basics, as seems not to be the case here. Anyways here we go, you’re fighting a beast cleave, how exciting for you. Let’s say you have a talented healer so the game runs 8 minutes before you inevitably lose. Gates open, BL and Wrath are both instapopped

    Destro:
    1st Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    2nd Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    3rd Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    4th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    5th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    6th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    7th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    8th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve

    Aff:
    1st Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    2nd Lust/Wrath: Healthstone
    3rd Lust/Wrath: loljackshit
    4th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    5th Lust/Wrath: loljackshit
    6th Lust/Wrath: loljackshit
    7th Lust/Wrath: Unending Resolve
    8th Lust/Wrath: loljackshit

    But wait! All my sick heals! Well lets crunch the numbers… Beep Boop Beep! Holy shit, so op… in one of these 10 second burst windows Siphon Life heals me for roughly 242k if it’s up on 3 people and there is no dampening. Harvester of Souls is RNG but if we ignore that it heals me for 90K. So 332K heals OR 40% damage reduction. Fuck that’s so hard to decide between I can barely even handle it. But wait! It gets better! We forgot the 25% Mortal Strike effect AMG so silly! Down to 249K feelsfuckinggoodman.

    And then there’s drain life. Here we have a few problems. First off, it’s fucking expensive, when you don’t get the luxury of a dmg reduction when you life tap like Destro does you start to notice pretty quickly that a single fear costs 10% of your mana and 10 seconds of Drain Life is another 2/3rds. Secondly your Unending Resolve doesn’t disappear when you’re stunned. It can’t be kicked, blanketed, vanished, cloaked, bubbled, reflected, or AMS’ed. It’s also not affected by dampening or Mortal Strike. Drain Life spam also kills counter pressure which is a defensive in it's own right. Unending Resolve on the other hand actually has the potential to increase counter pressure.

    When I decided to try and get bumps from MMO-Champ I knew it would be a lot of argueing for arguments sake and random vitriol because that’s MMO-Champ. I did not however expect to find a lock who actually believes, and is trying to get me to believe, that 40% reduction is not more valuable than 249K in dogshit heals.
    Last edited by Applenazi; 2016-11-02 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    snip
    Your second post "If you have input as to the issues addressed I'd love to hear them".

    I'm quoting your original post to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    Let’s start with the defensive toolkit:

    Affliction
    40% dmg reduction – 8 second duration / THREE minute cooldown
    3% increased absorb from Soul Leech (shield still capped at 15% max health)
    25% increased healing from Health Stone
    30% increased healing from Drain Life
    15% chance on corruption tick to heal for 29K

    Destro
    40% dmg reduction – 8 second duration / ONE minute cooldown
    9% dmg reduction – 6 second duration / Life Tap use
    45% chance of 45% increased healing from drain life for 15 seconds
    ~3.5% dmg reduction – passive – Mastery: Chaotic Energies
    "25% increased healing from healthstone", this is misleading, it's a bonus 25/50% of your hp healed. It's closer to 200-300% more healing than destruction and demonology and it also activates when your group uses theirs.
    "30% increased healing from drain life", again it's 30% increased healing trait, but much more than 30% healing compared to destruction and demonology since it hits much harder.
    And yes, siphon life should be here as it's part of your defensive toolkit, say it's rubbish, I don't care, but you're neglecting some things and twisting others to serve your purpose.

    Compare this to destruction and we have a much weaker drain life that requires us to stop doing significant amounts of damage, and a passive damage reduction of about 3.5% as you said. This is why destruction has a lower cooldown on unending resolve, it has a much smaller toolkit than affliction without it.

    That 249k is every 8 seconds, I didn't say it was as good as unending resolve in that time frame, but it's 1.9 million over 1 minute which is very significant.

    I'm done talking to you anyway, there have been plenty of other people giving similar criticism to me. The fact is affliction is statistically doing better on the arena and bg leaderboards than the other two specs, so it's crazy to be arguing that affliction specifically needs help. It's our best performing pvp spec. If you want to perform better go and argue for general warlock buffs.
    Last edited by mmocca694fa5de; 2016-11-02 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    "25% increased healing from healthstone", this is misleading
    It's the tooltip kid, if you have a problem with it then talk to Blizzard. Sorry I didn't spoon feed you the math behind that too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    The fact is affliction is statistically doing better on the arena and bg leaderboards than the other two specs, so it's crazy to be arguing that affliction specifically needs help. It's our best performing pvp spec
    Wow. Just wow. By the way I love how I gave a lengthy and detailed breakdown of why you have no fucking idea what you are talking about and this is your response. Didn't you ask for numbers? I gave them to you, is your rebuttal really more mindless drivel about drain life? Jesus what a waste of time.

    http://screencast.com/t/fKKneVgqOP
    Last edited by Applenazi; 2016-11-02 at 05:12 PM.

  9. #29
    I just came back to the game since Cataclysm, Ive nearly always mained as Warlock.
    I feel starved for shards as affliction, if you had even one more method of reliably generating shards I believe the spec would be a lot more fun.

    When I saw that UA could be applied five times I got excited, but it doesn't feel fluid.. it feels anxious & frustrating, to me.
    Last edited by Korzik; 2016-11-02 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    It's the tooltip kid, if you have a problem with it then talk to Blizzard. Sorry I didn't spoon feed you the math behind that too.




    Wow. Just wow. By the way I love how I gave a lengthy and detailed breakdown of why you have no fucking idea what you are talking about and this is your response. Didn't you ask for numbers? I gave them to you, is your rebuttal really more mindless drivel about drain life? Jesus what a waste of time.

    http://screencast.com/t/fKKneVgqOP
    I don't know where you got that from.

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-...es/2000-rating

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    It's the tooltip kid, if you have a problem with it then talk to Blizzard. Sorry I didn't spoon feed you the math behind that too.

    Actually the tooltip is "Your healthstone heals you for an additional 25% of your maximum health. Any party or raid member using a Healthstone also heals you for the amount they were healed"

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    I don't know where you got that from.

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-...es/2000-rating
    I thought you were done talking to me. Still waiting on an actual rebuttal to the numbers I provided you. Also even your crappy site shows destro ahead of aff as soon as you swap it to 3v3 - http://screencast.com/t/7EFnnqpw0d

    You're good at this, still wondering why your feedback is worthless to me?

  12. #32
    @op If you take nothing away from this thread thus far it should give you the slightest bit of pause that this many people all found the need to critique your post instead of rallying behind it in a sub forum filled with people proclaiming the end is nigh for warlocks.

    By the by out of the top 100 players on the 3v3 ladder right now 7 of them are warlocks (by contrast 5 are mages) and 4 of those 7 locks are aff. I'm not sure what those 4 locks are doing that you aren't, but they seem to have something figured out.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    @op If you take nothing away from this thread thus far it should give you the slightest bit of pause that this many people all found the need to critique your post instead of rallying behind it in a sub forum filled with people proclaiming the end is nigh for warlocks.
    I am fairly confidant I already posted this more than once but the negativity doesn't surprise me at all, also negativity keeps threads alive and that's really the most important thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    By the by out of the top 100 players on the 3v3 ladder right now 7 of them are warlocks (by contrast 5 are mages) and 4 of those 7 locks are aff. I'm not sure what those 4 locks are doing that you aren't, but they seem to have something figured out.
    Why do you assume they are doing anything I am not, and more importantly what does this have to do with anything at all? I didn't realize my feedback regarding affliction somehow meant the specialization affliction was unavailable in game. A lot of people seem to be making a lot of random assumptions, I'm not sure why. I simply compared the defensive toolkit of each spec, the golden artifact traits, and the state of UA. I cannot even begin to guess how that translates into anything you said.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    how on earth have you been Aff since vanilla? Destro during TBC was a one button win spec

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    You just stated that people should not provide feedback to Blizzard - fuck that's dumb. Knowing that people like you disagree with me validates my views, I appreciate that. I did like the line that Blizzard has no obligation to make the game playable, are you sure you aren't actually a Blizzard developer?
    While I do not agree with what almost looks like fishing for supporting voices in the first post, I do agree that we should continue with feedback rather than complaints.
    Is it any wonder that so much so-called feedback is ignored when most of it is just a complaint that blizzard ignore them.
    That is exactly why so much of it gets ignored, and rightly so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobislost View Post
    how on earth have you been Aff since vanilla? Destro during TBC was a one button win spec
    While I admittedly was destruction during that time, I do appreciate that not everyone wants to jump onto the FOTM or FOTE (flavour of the expansion) spec or class.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobislost View Post
    how on earth have you been Aff since vanilla? Destro during TBC was a one button win spec
    Well in PvE sure, but was aff for PvP

    http://screencast.com/t/obwmH9ExeN - man that UI, we were so young... What a time to be alive.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    I am fairly confidant I already posted this more than once but the negativity doesn't surprise me at all, also negativity keeps threads alive and that's really the most important thing.
    The thing is this subsection is literally filled with people who I'd 100% expect to take your side. It's basically been me and gaidax against an army of people who have been proclaiming the sky is falling since well before legion launch. We get called white knights and blizzard apologists constantly. Hell I was even accused of being on blizzards payroll by some guy just the other day (blizzard, I'm game if you're reading this).

    I was genuinely shocked to pop into this thread to find people by and large taking issue with your post because that's actually very much the opposite of what this section has been like for quite a while now. The "negativity" you mention has almost universally been about the state of the class and how people think its exaggeratedly bad.

    The fact that people are rallying against your post despite it complaining about the state of affliction speaks volumes in a section that's spent the last month screaming bloody murder about how bad affliction is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applenazi View Post
    Why do you assume they are doing anything I am not, and more importantly what does this have to do with anything at all?
    Because they're 2700~ish playing aff while you're complaining to blizzard that they apparently don't want people playing the spec and bringing up aff vs destruction in pvp even though 4 of the 7 top pvp locks are playing aff.

    Clearly there's a disconnect between your experience and what the specs capable of.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  18. #38
    Sadly I didn't do any PVP this expanssion so I cannot say anything about that part, but I am sure everyone (yes, even the blue guys) knows that some cruical parts of affliction are broken.
    I am for one very sad for that because I am affliction warlock my whole WoW life, forced to play another spec.
    But, together with you, I will keep hoping that in some not so distant future patch, affliction is gonna come back.
    You should have stated that you are talking about PVP in that thread tho, because affliction does have one of the best survivability in a PVE envrioment, I am playing aff lock and I know how easy it is to top myself up with simply following my rotation, drain life self healing is just enormous.
    In terms of survivability regarding PVE aspect of the game, I think aff's are top 3 in the game atm definitely, if not 1st.
    I do get where your anger comes from tho, I am mad from day 1 (not only cuz I got legendary pants, jk happy I got one ) but because I always do the wrong thing, raise my expectations and then a mechanic that is absolutely needed to work as expected to perform, gets broken by blizzard.
    Oh well, I am still hoping for some new hotfixes before nighthold at least, as I doubt there are any coming before ToV.

  19. #39
    pvp! the sky is falling

  20. #40
    The main problem I have with affliction pvp right now is that dispelling UA has nearly no downside. In the arena it impossible to get 5 UA on a target, let alone use rot and decay to extend and keep them rolling. It's just not going to happen. So the max you'll realistically get is about 3. Any healer that is about 1400 will cleanse your dots nearly off cooldown. The silence won't have a duration that is scary and the damage from dispelling is worthless now. There is no protection for your dots. You simply don't have the shards or time to keep them rolling. As others have mentioned, best of luck surviving against a melee cleave or burst comp.

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