Brexit - UK Parliament to vote on Article 50

[Deleted]

Which makes it a Belgian issue, not an example of how 'super democratic' the EU is.

No, that we gave a shit about what Belgium thought.
That was what made the EU democratic.

[Deleted]

It would be UKIP heaven.

A smug Farage again. The horror!

And you'd see a rise in the likes of the BNP.

didn't even realise bnp were still around... i thought their voters drifted towards ukip

[Elegiac]

Got a better option?

Bureaucracy.

You can see why I like the EU.

[Nitro Fun]

You say 'want something different' as if their desires are capable of being substantiated by, you know, evidence, or ethical reasoning.

Democracy is about how you want to shape society, there's no need for evidence or ethical reasoning in that.

[Elegiac]

Democracy is about how you want to shape society, there's no need for evidence or ethical reasoning in that.

Well that certainly explains Brexit voters.

[Kalis]

Except for the whole, you know, being racist and isolationist.

Hating people for their skin colour, or their 'unacceptable' views, is still hating people.

One wants closed borders, the other open borders.


I want nothing of what you either of you are offering, I quite the centre-right and I can put up with the centre-left every now and then, so it is no from me to your intolerance and no to theirs as well.

[Elegiac]

Hating people for their skin colour, or their 'unacceptable' views, is still hating people.

Gee, I wonder if there's a difference in moral weight between hating someone for something beyond that control with no real impact on others versus hating someone for willfully espousing beliefs that are self-destructive and detrimental to others.

Sorry, I'm not a hippie.

I want nothing of what you either of you are offering, I quite the centre-right and I can put up with the centre-left every now and then, so it is no from me to your intolerance and no to theirs as well.

And people wonder why I call centrists spineless.

[Kalis]

No, that we gave a shit about what Belgium thought.
That was what made the EU democratic.

Nobody gives a shit about Belgium.

[Deleted]

Well that certainly explains Brexit voters.

The problem with the argument that democracy needs a moral core, is that while you laud it for rejecting homophobia, It can just as easily be justified, due to a moral and ethical reasoning, that the homosexuals should be stoned.

[Thage]

And how much sovereignty will we really gain by leaving? We still have to deal with the EU. We'll just have given up our very powerful seat at the table.

As a relatively-ignorant 'Murican (unfortunately, we have our hands full with the 2016 election clusterfuck so I haven't been able to give Brexit the attention it rightly deserves), this actually makes me wonder why Brexit got such a push. The UK will likely have to deal with the EU for trade agreements anyway, unless they plan to get everything from the US and China or whatever, so why would they knowingly put themselves at a disadvantageous position in those trade deals as they need the EU's trade more than the EU needs theirs?

[Beazy]

Didn't Parliament already "vote" by simply allowing the people to vote?

I'm confused.

[Elegiac]

As a relatively-ignorant 'Murican (unfortunately, we have our hands full with the 2016 election clusterfuck so I haven't been able to give Brexit the attention it rightly deserves), this actually makes me wonder why Brexit got such a push. The UK will likely have to deal with the EU for trade agreements anyway, unless they plan to get everything from the US and China or whatever, so why would they knowingly put themselves at a disadvantageous position in those trade deals as they need the EU's trade more than the EU needs theirs?

Brexit got a push for the same reason Trump has a following.

The changing socioeconomic realities in Britain have left a lot of working class people in poorer economic and political circumstances than they would have been, and demagogues like Farage have channeled that feeling of resentment into hatred of the EU to advance their careers.

[Thage]

Didn't Parliament already "vote" by simply allowing the people to vote?

I'm confused.

The referendum was more to get an idea where the peoples' thoughts on the matter lay in an advisory manner. Parliament isn't required to adhere to the referendum's results, but it's generally a bad idea to go against the will of the people without an absolutely killer PR campaign.

[Elegiac]

The problem with the argument that democracy needs a moral core, is that while you laud it for rejecting homophobia, It can just as easily be justified, due to a moral and ethical reasoning, that the homosexuals should be stoned.

Sure, if your premises are batshit insane.

[Kalis]

Gee, I wonder if there's a difference in moral weight between hating someone for something beyond that control with no real impact on others versus hating someone for willfully espousing beliefs that are self-destructive and detrimental to others.

Sorry, I'm not a hippie.

And who made you the moral arbiter?

And people wonder why I call centrists spineless.

Rather be called spineless than advocate ending free speech for speech you don't like and ordering people to accept what, in your opinion, is best for them.

The authoritarian far left has a far worse reputation than the centre right does, I am fine with where I stand.


And it was centrists like Britain that stood alone against extremists in the past, whilst the rest of the continent caved in, or had non-aggression pacts with them - one heck of a spine for a spineless bunch.

[Elegiac]

The referendum was more to get an idea where the peoples' thoughts on the matter lay in an advisory manner. Parliament isn't required to adhere to the referendum's results, but it's generally a bad idea to go against the will of the people without an absolutely killer PR campaign.

This is true. Handling Brexit requires a level of tact and competence that neither Labour nor the Tories have demonstrated for quite some time.

[Kalis]

As a relatively-ignorant 'Murican (unfortunately, we have our hands full with the 2016 election clusterfuck so I haven't been able to give Brexit the attention it rightly deserves), this actually makes me wonder why Brexit got such a push. The UK will likely have to deal with the EU for trade agreements anyway, unless they plan to get everything from the US and China or whatever, so why would they knowingly put themselves at a disadvantageous position in those trade deals as they need the EU's trade more than the EU needs theirs?

Lots of people didn't vote for economic reasons. Annoyingly.

[Deleted]

The UK will likely have to deal with the EU for trade agreements anyway, unless they plan to get everything from the US and China or whatever, so why would they knowingly put themselves at a disadvantageous position in those trade deals as they need the EU's trade more than the EU needs theirs?

They were lied to.
That's pretty much it - They were told you could leave the EU, stay in the common market and skip the dirty polish.
Never mind they were told that wasn't an option multiple times.

Even in the sense that they regain some sovereignty, that is true, but in practice, they will now have perfect sovereignty but no power, because in practice, the EU will by its sheer size and importance influence the UK, so as to reduce this De jure soverignty de facto.
Its a bit like Canada and the US - yes Canada is sovereign, but how much could they resist if they wanted to be wholly 'independent' ?

[Kalis]

Didn't Parliament already "vote" by simply allowing the people to vote?

I'm confused.

No, the referendum was to see what the people wanted and then the Government is supposed to act on that result.

[Deleted]

Sure, if your premises are batshit insane.

People who believe the sky man created the earth 6 thousand years ago and the fossils (as a joke to us) and humanity, and then gives a shit about where a man sticks his dick.