Healer and tank roles need to change

[jaakkeli]

I love my healer. Long ass queue times for DPS come from not enough people enjoying healer and tanks or dismissing it as boring and skill-less as it seems you have.

Something needs to change and it sounds like its that some DPS need to put the ruler away and branch out into roles that aren't defined by how big their numbers can be. That said, lots of tanks and healers still try to beat their chest and say "look at my tank DPS" or "look at my HPS" so maybe the ruler doesn't need to go away.

Can't exactly branch out if I rolled a mage a decade ago and feel too close to it by now to reroll. I'd be happy to heal or tank an occasional 5 man but, eh, can't. Alts wouldn't solve the problem even if the expansion was more alt friendly unless somehow they made daily heroic dungeon rewards and mythic dungeon loot account wide as I'm going to do those on my mage anyway.

The fundamental problem with MMO design of course is that games tend to commit to a model where people first go through what's essentially a single player game and only after that end up in content where tanking and healing roles become significant. After that experience most players are already attached to a specialization as you wouldn't go through the weeks of leveling to max if you didn't like your pick and that's likely to be a DPS specialization. This is made worse by the existence of pure DPS classes as a lot of us got too used to our class long before we were even able to try the other roles (and back in vanilla it took a hell of a long time to level an alt to even try the other roles at high level).

WoW has somewhat of an excuse as it's an old game but it baffles me how new MMOs keep making the same mistakes, not guiding players towards group content earlier, still including pure DPS classes etc.

[Wyattbw09]

Managing threat was never fun.

The bad old days where everything had to be marked, and the tank had to rush and spam AOE and the DPS had to wait until the count of five to make sure the tank had threat. Then when someone hit the wrong target everything went to crap because some mob charged half way across the screen straight at your healer.

Tanking in BC was pretty sucky. Especially heroic tanking.

[Snuffleupagus]

But isn't that true to other rolls as well?
I mean generally carrying a tank is much much harder than carrying a healer or DPS.

Bad healers affect you from Normal onward.
Bad DPS affects you from Heroic onward.
Bad tanks on affect you at Mythic level.

Here is a TL;DR for EN up to Heroic.
Nyth: Drop Volatile Rot at wall edge behind you, taunt swap when current tank gets debuff.
Ursoc: Taunt as soon as the current tank gets a stack of either debuff. Move boss around room when Roar is cast and keep at least half the boss in the red pool. Save a cooldown for 30%.
Elerethe: Don't kill spiders near bridge. Stay close to other tank. Taunt swap debuff in Bird form.
Il'gynoth: Use cooldowns on Nightmarish Fury. Taunt swap at two stacks from Nightmare Horror.
Dragons: Opposite side of room. Run to middle and taunt swap at 7 stacks.
Cenarius: Run boss between tree and wisps until 35%. Tank adds in middle of room. At 35%, taunt swap each cast of Spear and use a cooldown to make pool smaller. Don't stand in pool.
Xavius: Tank in dream on add. Tank on boss runs out for dispel at three stacks, add Tank takes boss during the 5 seconds it should take to get dispelled then boss Tank taunts back to keep debuff off add Tank. Boss to middle at 65%. Stay out of bad stuff.

Nothing about tanking before Mythic is hard, and even on Mythic not a lot is hard.

[Arachnofiend]

I won't lie, the last time I did end game content at the highest levels was during Cata. I don't really consider heroic raids "high level content," and in that way I haven't done any mythic raids or things like that for personal reasons.

I'm only speaking from experiences, and I can say from experience, this expansion included that tanking is not hard in any way shape or form. You can be a complete and utter retard and tank well (at least as a Prot warrior, the rotation is beyond simple).
As far as tanking mechanics go in boss fights in Mythics (have not raided this expact.) it's generally more of the same tanking mechanics that have been in the game for over a decade.

Again, I can't talk about raids or anything of the sort for this expact., but even in WoD tanking was the same ol', same ol'.

So... you're talking from all of your zero experience? I mean, okay.

[scrangos]

Wish they hadnt removed fistweaving. Honestly what keeps me from certain roles is them being boring, not challenging or simply not have enough things to manage.

[Deleted]

If you don't mind me asking, can I see a link to your character armory? Thanks.

Tanking is not hard. Sorry, it never has been and it likely never will be. WoW PvE in general is a cakewalk - the entire game is centered around a loot treadmill and rehearsing mechanics.
That's not hard. PvE has never been hard. Scripted fights will never be hard.

I don't get why people are taking such offense to that. I'm not pissing on your ancestors graves, I'm saying that WoW, and tanking specifically, is easy. Even in 2004 on WoW's release to veteran MMO players it has always been a more casual game compared to the MMOs during that time. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Jesus Christ the egotism on some of you people is astounding, either that or a definitely lack in mental ability in thinking that tanking is hard in any way shape or form. You can cry, "Y-YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!" but it's not going to change the fact that WoW is an intrinsically easy game that I have enjoyed for over a decade now.

1. You argue that scripted fights will never be hard.

Generally is that really true? Dark souls, Metal gear rising on highest difficulty and more are scripted, although with a randomly selected ability. But those are not something any player can do, in fact most cannot. Which would actually define them as hard.
How many % of players do mythic raids or mythic+10 and complete it even if they have the gear to do so? Not very many, only a few % complete mythic raids when they are still the "active" ones. It is was so easy, 50% or more players would find themselves clearing mythic emerald nightmare 7/7 by now, since many people have the required gear. But it is not being cleared, most people still struggle there. Around 560 mythic guilds have cleared Xavius mythic, but there are for more than 6-7000 active mythic raiding guilds, and there are tons of other guilds not stepping into mythic, simply because it would be too hard for them. That is a lot of players not even attempting it, and you can be sure it is not because of the time consumed, because there are an insane amount of heroic clearing guilds.



2. You say tanking is not hard

So are you saying it is easy?
What part of tanking is easy, all of it? Is it really easy to always know exactly when, and where to move, while you press the situationally most optimal ability every GCD, or pool a specific resources thinking 10 seconds ahead, while keeping track of the rest of your group.
Is it always easy to know the exact limits of your spec, going to the edge but not over it?
Tanking at high level is something much more different.
Maybe you meant tanking is not hard to pick up and use on a casual level. By that fact you are mostly correct. Many new tanks can somewhat keep themselves alive, but their movement will be the annoyance of all in his group/raid. There is a lot of pressure on a tank, because one wrong move and your group is wiped. Dragons of nightmare swapping, Ursoc taunting, turning the correct adds... it might seem simple, yet many here would probably proclaim they see tanks fail this a lot. If a lot of people fail something, it is not that easy.


Difficulty is a relative thing. One person might see Cenarius Mythic as the most easy of all things. It is only natural, because that individual is both smart and good at his class. Another might view the fight as incredibly hard, and be stuck there for weeks, because the encounter mechanics seem challenging and hard to learn unless spending a decent amount of time on it.

There is nothing that is objectively hard or easy. It depends on the person, and we generalize it by using statistics.
If a test flunks 9/10 people, even the most smart people in the world, it would probably be considered hard. This can change though, new strategies, experience, education and so on can maybe result in 5/10 pass it after 5 years of it being active.

So i see your arguments as a really shallow way of portraying your understanding of difficulty, and is most likely a very biased one only using a narrow perspective.

[ohlins]

2 110's one's a resto shaman the other a guardian druid. Speak for yourself.

[GreenJesus]

I play holy paladin and and on normal raid pugs I join (our guild doesn't bother with normal anymore) I literally just DPS the entire encounter outside of pressing LoD and the occasional cooldowns since normal is so easy. I try to see how many DPS I can beat as a healer and then point and laugh at them while linking logs saying "LUL.. I outdpsd 3 people this group is trash."

[Meiffert]

Tanking is by far the most mind-numbingly boring thing to do in the entirety of WoW.
I feel like a mentally deficient monkey could slap his nutsack on a keyboard and properly hold threat and get the boss from 100%->0%.

But such a tank would be horrible. A good tank does a lot more than just hold threat.
I don't understand why you would even consider that reasonable.

Let's compare the minimum effort needed to get boss from 100 to 0:
Tank: press pretty much any button every now and then, just to hold threat. You don't contribute to dps or healing and take massive damage, basically being carried, but it somehow works. Sure, it doesn't take much to be a bad tank, but it takes at least something.
DPS: watch Youtube. You literally don't have to be at the computer to get the boss down as a bad dps being carried.

I don't see how having to do something, as little as it might be, can be considered less than doing nothing at all.

[HumbleDuck]

Bad healers affect you from Normal onward.
Bad DPS affects you from Heroic onward.
Bad tanks on affect you at Mythic level.

Here is a TL;DR for EN up to Heroic.
Nyth: Drop Volatile Rot at wall edge behind you, taunt swap when current tank gets debuff.
Ursoc: Taunt as soon as the current tank gets a stack of either debuff. Move boss around room when Roar is cast and keep at least half the boss in the red pool. Save a cooldown for 30%.
Elerethe: Don't kill spiders near bridge. Stay close to other tank. Taunt swap debuff in Bird form.
Il'gynoth: Use cooldowns on Nightmarish Fury. Taunt swap at two stacks from Nightmare Horror.
Dragons: Opposite side of room. Run to middle and taunt swap at 7 stacks.
Cenarius: Run boss between tree and wisps until 35%. Tank adds in middle of room. At 35%, taunt swap each cast of Spear and use a cooldown to make pool smaller. Don't stand in pool.
Xavius: Tank in dream on add. Tank on boss runs out for dispel at three stacks, add Tank takes boss during the 5 seconds it should take to get dispelled then boss Tank taunts back to keep debuff off add Tank. Boss to middle at 65%. Stay out of bad stuff.

Nothing about tanking before Mythic is hard, and even on Mythic not a lot is hard.

That is simply not true. There are 3-4 other people to do the job a bad healer is slacking at, and more than 10 people to help with a bad DPS. In case of a bad tank, there is none.
So, yea, that's simple logic. Bad tank effects the raid the most.

Also if you want to go the TLDR route ( over simplifying to the advantage of your side of the argument), I have one for you:

DPS TLDR: move out of stuff, stack for other stuff, pew pew pew
Healer TLDR: move out of stuff, stack for other , use CD when hearing some one shouting at you on TS
Tank TLDR: move out of stuff, position the boss, use CDs when hearing some one shouting at you on TS, taunt when hearing some one shouting at you on TS.
You see, Tanks have one extra thing to do.

[xensorlol]

The only healer class at present that is required to do damage is Disc, and the way Blizzard implemented it does make some sense... Tanks have always executed a dps rotation of sorts, on top of filling in with damage mitigation. They're only frustrating when you're in a group that doesn't properly cooperate with mechanics. :')

[threeks]

Games have tried it. They all suck.

[Levifer]

I cant waste so much time waiting for a tank and healer , im pretty sure this is the same for everyone , blizzard has to make them more fun or abolish them.

Yeah well... I call bullshit.

I love playing my tank classes. In fact I ONLY play tanks and nothing else.
It was this way since I started playing in early/mid BC.

As someone else said you have a lot of control and responsibility, which is a good thing.
If they will ever be "abolished" I will too stop playing.

[Temp name]

Okay, so I'm NOT having fun on my vengeance DH? Well, thanks for telling me OP. Boy am I glad I could find out I'm not having fun from you.

No but seriously, I enjoy tanking and healing how it is right now.

[Mendzia]

Blizzard has already changed alot of stuff and has now forced healers to do damage and tanks to execute a dps rotatio

I am almost never forced to dps as healer.

its frustrating right now for people to wait 392382492392 hours in a queue for literally no reason

Sooo you're dps. That explains everything. I will still enjoy instant queues as tank/healer.

everyone knows that these particular roles are boring as hell and it only cause frustration to more people.

Healing is most fun role in this game imo.

Blizzard made these roles even harder instead of abolish them or at least make them simpler , it doesnt make sense to make an already frustrating role even more frustrating.

First you're saying that healing/tanking roles are boring. In next sentence you're complaing that they are too complicated. That makes no sense at all.

[Deleted]

One of the main reasons I still play WoW is the fact that there is still a distinct difference between Tanks, Healers and DPS.
New games try to combine all roles into one. I am not a fan of this at all.

So I totally disagree with you.

[Deleted]

sniiiipy - adressed below

Blizzard has already changed alot of stuff and has now forced healers to do damage and tanks to execute a dps rotation - Nope. Healers aren't forced to do damage and tanks don't have to do a DPS rotation. That's like saying that blizz is forcing DPS classes to do their rotation right. As a restodruid you're looking at doing ~35k DPS(in HC) if you're doing it whenever there's nothing to heal and have a decent uptime on moonfire. For tanks the number is higher but most of their damage is tied with mitigation i.e. druids getting rage from mangle etc. There's some cases where you can do damage instead i.e. keeping moonfire up even without the talent, using maul when you can, in blank GCDs using swipe but not doing that doesn't have that great of an effect.

healer and tank was a senseless rpg mechanic and it is possible for it to change You say it's senseless but give no reason why you think that's the case. If you remove healers/tanks you're looking at only DPS classes with bosses hitting for a lot less so as to not one shot anyone. Making mechanics harder to compensate for that is also a big no no as most people who play the game cannot deal with things properly as they are now, let alone harded versions. Leaving only DPS and not making things harder means that you're pretty much looking at a snoozefest where the boss jumps around the room as random ranged classes get their burst damage leaving melee to sit around. When your health goes low as a DPS you go "hm, better heal myself a bit" -> you pres rejuv twice and boom, job done.

its frustrating right now for people to wait 392382492392 hours in a queue for literally no reason , everyone knows that these particular roles are boring as hell and it only cause frustration to more people. - It's your opinion that tanking and healing are boring, not everyone's. If waiting in a queue is the problem you're trying to solve by making the game a slightly improved variant of clicker heroes then i doubt anyone will take you seriously. The fix for queues is to make more people want to heal/tank and pretty much everything short of forcing people to change spec has been done so right now you're looking at people doing what they want i.e. queueing as DPS even if that means they have to wait for 30m instead of changing spec.

Blizzard made these roles even harder instead of abolish them or at least make them simpler - Healing/tanking hasn't become harder with legion. It feels the same as it did in WoD. If your idea of things got harder is "I spam wrath when i have nothing to heal" then you might need to just git gud.

it doesnt make sense to make an already frustrating role even more frustrating. - They're not frustrating, you just don't like the roles. Surprisingly your opinion isn't fact.

Something needs to change here. - Yes, i wish that there was another way to make people go tank/healer but i can't think of anything that wouldn't annoy people.

[Deleted]

If you don't mind me asking, can I see a link to your character armory? Thanks.

Tanking is not hard. Sorry, it never has been and it likely never will be. WoW PvE in general is a cakewalk - the entire game is centered around a loot treadmill and rehearsing mechanics.
That's not hard. PvE has never been hard. Scripted fights will never be hard.

I don't get why people are taking such offense to that. I'm not pissing on your ancestors graves, I'm saying that WoW, and tanking specifically, is easy. Even in 2004 on WoW's release to veteran MMO players it has always been a more casual game compared to the MMOs during that time. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Jesus Christ the egotism on some of you people is astounding, either that or a definitely lack in mental ability in thinking that tanking is hard in any way shape or form. You can cry, "Y-YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!" but it's not going to change the fact that WoW is an intrinsically easy game that I have enjoyed for over a decade now.

Its fine that you are the god of gaming. I doubt you are in method though. Are you pushing the hardest mythic plus dungeons in the game?

I'm currently doing mythic 12 and i find them sufficiently hard to test my skill.

Its about adaptation when things goes wrong, its about knowing when you need to use cd's and when you dont.

I'm not saying its on some kind of moba esport level of difficulty. But coming up with a false statement and then hiding behind "but this game is ez, you are butthurt" is just kind of pathetic imo.

I actually didnt pay attention to your name before writing this post. I'm guessing you are just here to try and trigger people?

There are plenty of examples of hard scriptet gameplay that still require twitch reaction. Racing games and dark souls come to mind.


Edit:

Also the way you write back to people in here:

No need to be so spicy, babe.

Don't be so obtuse, you're ugly when you're obtuse.

Jesus Christ the egotism on some of you people is astounding, either that or a definitely lack in mental ability

If you want people to take you for anything but a 9 year old ragekid, you might want to work on that

[Chrno]

Blizzard has already changed alot of stuff and has now forced healers to do damage and tanks to execute a dps rotation , healer and tank was a senseless rpg mechanic and it is possible for it to change , its frustrating right now for people to wait 392382492392 hours in a queue for literally no reason , everyone knows that these particular roles are boring as hell and it only cause frustration to more people.

Blizzard made these roles even harder instead of abolish them or at least make them simpler , it doesnt make sense to make an already frustrating role even more frustrating.

Something needs to change here.

I think it's you that needs to change.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Tanking is by far the most mind-numbingly boring thing to do in the entirety of WoW.
I feel like a mentally deficient monkey could slap his nutsack on a keyboard and properly hold threat and get the boss from 100%->0%.

I think I have identified the problem!
This isn't Classic brother. You have a LOT more you need to focusing on as a tank. Try a DH if you think they are boring.